Evening,
So I finally got my hands on 6 Carrion Lancers and I am itching to get the below onto the table
Carrion Lancer - 3x2 with Master-Crafted Weapons and Combat Ingenuity coming in at 78 points
I have heard whispers of its effectiveness and was wondering what everyone is putting with it?
I've used the setup you mention with Maro (Violent Forces and Fortuna's Dice), four trays of Deathknights (Rank Discipline), and two trays of Archers (either CI or Rank Discipline).
I also played against a list in a tournament this weekend that had the Wormstar, 2x2 tray Archers with CI (one with Wind Rune), Ardus (Obcasum's Gauntlet, Ancient Technique), and two trays of Deathknights.
My experience is that the unit is super strong and hits hard. The Carrion Lancers are one of the most efficient points to wounds/defense ratio game as well. BUT...
I don't think deathstar units are good in this game. I have moved to a six unit list, and have no issue playing to the mission in order to beat deathstars. My new build (that does use six worms):
Maro (Violent Forces and Fortuna's Dice)
Four tray Carrion Lancers with Rank Discipline
Single Carrion Lancer
Single Carrion Lancer
Four tray Deathknights with Rank Discipline
Two tray Archers with Rank Discipline
I see your points regarding the missions and the larger units and tend to lean towards ore smaller units
I was considering using the alongside some smaller units, possibly two 2x1 death knights and some archers
8 hours ago, JGrand said:I don't think deathstar units are good in this game. I have moved to a six unit list, and have no issue playing to the mission in order to beat deathstars. My new build (that does use six worms):
Depends entirely on how the game goes.
A well built "Deathstar" list that has plenty of support to move/reform the big unit and grant extra attacks may just table you so hard that the objective doesn't matter, or you may draw an objective that grants no points, forcing you to try a stand up engagement.
The Objective/Deployment system is varied enough that statements like "MSU isn't good" or "Deathstar isn't good" are reductive.
Also, have you tried MCW + CI on even just the four tray unit? It still hits like a truck.
34 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:Depends entirely on how the game goes.
A well built "Deathstar" list that has plenty of support to move/reform the big unit and grant extra attacks may just table you so hard that the objective doesn't matter, or you may draw an objective that grants no points, forcing you to try a stand up engagement.
The Objective/Deployment system is varied enough that statements like "MSU isn't good" or "Deathstar isn't good" are reductive.
Also, have you tried MCW + CI on even just the four tray unit? It still hits like a truck.
I will agree that is is wrong to be reductionist, and deathstars do have some clear benefits:
However, the downsides far outweigh the upsides to me:
Are all of these issues unique to deathstars? Of course not. Can deathstars win? Of course. However, the fact that this is an objective game means that players should consider the mission above mere killing power.
In my experience, the four tray Carrion Lancers with Rank Discipline along with two solo Lancers for 80 points is far more versatile than the 78 point deathstar. The Lancers have so much utility that goes unexplored when you use the deathstar, which has to go full bore into combat. The solo worms are amazing speedbumps (the rally+three move at i3 is incredible and often catches people off guard). They can also shoot blight without it feeling like a "wasted" turn. The four brick can still work as a bully, but I've found they also work as a speedbump that can waste most of a deathstar's game. To this end, I have had times where I bluff the charge to waste their time, and then forgo attacks for the consistent +1 defense. 48 damage can easily be 3+ turns that an enemy deathstar sits in combat, while the rest of their list has to cope with a points imbalance. Think about it this way--three turns of posturing to get the charge, three turns chewing through the four brick, and another turn to reform means their deathstar maybe gets one more charge. Every game is different, of course, but I personally don't see deathstars as a super viable way to go, especially if more people mimic the world's list (that is seriously an uphill battle to say the least).
One aspect I love about this game is that we can have this debate, which shows how much customization there is already. I could be totally wrong in my predictions though
10 minutes ago, JGrand said:Are all of these issues unique to deathstars? Of course not. Can deathstars win? Of course. However, the fact that this is an objective game means that players should consider the mission above mere killing power.
I don't disagree on any point, but what happens when the objective you choose is a 0 point one like Volatile Runes?
I think being able to play the objective is a vital consideration, but so is staying power. Every list needs a backbone.
11 minutes ago, JGrand said:One aspect I love about this game is that we can have this debate, which shows how much customization there is already. I could be totally wrong in my predictions though
I agree. It's a sign of excellent balance that the answer to most of these questions of investment vs return comes down to "Well, it's complicated"
Everything seems to have its place and, in my experience, the player who wins a game of Runewars is the one who had a better plan during setup. Very rarely does the list determine the outcome.
13 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:I don't disagree on any point, but what happens when the objective you choose is a 0 point one like Volatile Runes?
I think being able to play the objective is a vital consideration, but so is staying power. Every list needs a backbone.
I agree. It's a sign of excellent balance that the answer to most of these questions of investment vs return comes down to "Well, it's complicated"
Everything seems to have its place and, in my experience, the player who wins a game of Runewars is the one who had a better plan during setup. Very rarely does the list determine the outcome.
Totally agree that there are objectives that you can't as easy play to for points. And you are right that lists do need a backbone.
I have tried the wormstar and strict MSU before settling on what I call the "MVP" or multiple versatile pieces. I do like having some punch to units, but find that the deathstar itself is too easily handled. Deathstars do tend to win or lose big, which is actually not bad in the RW event scoring, so that will be interesting to see now that we have some store champs coming!
I think the strongest argument against the "Deathstar" is the maneuvering one.
Runewars is, fundamentally, a game of maneuver and position, and once you get to 3-4 wide, maneuvering becomes quite tricky.
This can largely be made up for with player skill, though. Controlling terrain placement, knowing your dials and initiatives, and playing smart is what helps you bring an otherwise unwieldly unit into play.
Ultimately, I think the high damage/high durability/high pts efficiency units are balanced by this perfectly. They're high skill, high risk units. You can counterplay by never letting them hit you but, oh man, IF they hit you, you'd better have a plan to make up for a big chunk of your list vaporising.
In this case, the Wormstar is probably one of the most maneuverable "deathstars" with the smallest footprint.
My biggest personal complaint would be that big cumbersome units are kind of boring to play sometimes. I'm a fan of all-comers lists, myself.
Sorry to interrupt the thread about deathstars...
But here's the two ways I've run an army with the 6 Lancer block:
This gets you to 200 points with the minimal number of expansions. The main idea is that dispatch runner lets the lancers attack multiple times per round. You want to build up some inspiration on the lancers turn 1 and 2 to help overcome the stun tokens that the dispatch runner puts out. Rally actions for the reanimates will keep your Dispatch Runner refreshed. The archers take out softer threats and stack blight onto anything coming at the lancers, which also lets them dish out mortal wounds if needed... which they usually aren't.
The other way I've run it, and I prefer this, is:
This gives you 199 points, so a 1 point bid for second player which I always prefer. The Death Knights are faster and have an easier time keeping up with the lancers, or can run down a distant threat on the other side of the board if needed. Plus, they are clutch for taking out your opponent's heroes and siege units while being tough as nails in their own right. The bigger unit of reanimates is also great a block a flank for your lancers. Their big weakness is being attacked in the flank. As soon as you lose a lancer, the unit flanking you has pretty good odds of survival due to lost threat, so the bigger block of reanimates to protect one flank and cunning use of terrain and movement, or Death Knights as needed can keep your other flank safe.
Happy Lancing!
the 3x2 lancer is probably the only 'deathstar unit' in the game that actually works very well.
About all you can do is hope you can stall it long enough to claim the objectives and not lose half your army. It takes 54 wounds ideally to kill that unit...54!!! and of course you are going to have some wasted wounds due to armor3 so its actually higher than that. And they have access to upgrades like a proper unit.
On 12/4/2017 at 7:11 AM, JGrand said:I've used the setup you mention with Maro (Violent Forces and Fortuna's Dice), four trays of Deathknights (Rank Discipline), and two trays of Archers (either CI or Rank Discipline).
I also played against a list in a tournament this weekend that had the Wormstar, 2x2 tray Archers with CI (one with Wind Rune), Ardus (Obcasum's Gauntlet, Ancient Technique), and two trays of Deathknights.
My experience is that the unit is super strong and hits hard. The Carrion Lancers are one of the most efficient points to wounds/defense ratio game as well. BUT...
I don't think deathstar units are good in this game. I have moved to a six unit list, and have no issue playing to the mission in order to beat deathstars. My new build (that does use six worms):
Maro (Violent Forces and Fortuna's Dice)
Four tray Carrion Lancers with Rank Discipline
Single Carrion Lancer
Single Carrion Lancer
Four tray Deathknights with Rank Discipline
Two tray Archers with Rank Discipline
Why take Rank Discipline on top of having two-rank units? I find even just one re-roll from a partial rank does a lot for my damage output. Are you chasing a different rolling strategy?
2 minutes ago, Elliphino said:Why take Rank Discipline on top of having two-rank units? I find even just one re-roll from a partial rank does a lot for my damage output. Are you chasing a different rolling strategy?
Two reasons: first, consistency rules in every game, and I like the ability to use multiple re-rolls to optimize my output. Second, it is often difficult to make it into combat with a full or even partial rank, and even when these units do, they will lose models over ensuing combats. The rank discipline means they will have a good deal of consistency regardless of model count.
I tend to think of rank discipline as near auto-include unless there is a good reason not to have it.
So I managed to try it out last night with the below list
3x2 Lancers with mcw and ci
2x1 deathknights with gauntlet
2x1 deathknights with reaping blade and ci
3x2 archers with raven standard bearer, ci and shield wall
Got to say it works great, lots of damage potential and as said above it takes a lot to bring it down, I think it does need more blight support than what I had just to reduce incoming damage - game one I lost 3 lancers and game two 4 of them died.
I'm thinking of splitting the 6 tray archers into a 4 and a 2 both with ci of 3 lots of 2, one naked, one with ci and one with close quarters targeting