The problem with that is turrets already have low agility so the impact of that would be small. Not much would change. You're already burning a turret down quickly. Giving the defender an extra evade die would be more impactful. Either way, whatever. We both agree there should be a detriment to a turret.

Look, X-Wing is great. As long as they offer players a more inclusive experience and balance mechanics better, the game can last indefinitely.

FFG seemingly has a very short-sighted approach to designing the game. They just keep printing unbalanced mechanics to boost sales but for the game to be sustainable, the mechanics can't be better than everything that came before it. New printings need to be better in a specific way and worse in a specific way so everything has its place.

They need to offer more formats so some of the players don't feel displaced when they don't want to play standard anymore.

There's no reason why X-Wing can't last for more than twenty years. It's all on FFG's shoulders to manage it well, though. They're basically printing gold as long as they don't (keep) screw(ing) it up.

1 hour ago, AceWing said:

Yes, turrets are stupid the way they're currently designed. However, fixing turret impact would also be simple. If you're firing outside your firing arc, the defender adds an additional evade dice. It makes sense thematically and mechanically. Turrets would still be good and playing against them would be less boring. Flying would become more important, even for turrets.

I support this.

I don’t know if it will be still around in the sense of new content based on whether or not ffg can maintain the interest without breaking the game....

that said, I am sure I’m not the only guy who will be playing with his plastic ships long after official support is removed. There will always be casual gaming and finding buddies to hang out on a weekend or something like that, well past organized play. And if I keep up my “one of everything” minimum trend, I won’t even need my casual buddies to invest! Just come over and let’s divy up the stuff and have fun.

22 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I don’t know if it will be still around in the sense of new content based on whether or not ffg can maintain the interest without breaking the game....

that said, I am sure I’m not the only guy who will be playing with his plastic ships long after official support is removed. There will always be casual gaming and finding buddies to hang out on a weekend or something like that, well past organized play. And if I keep up my “one of everything” minimum trend, I won’t even need my casual buddies to invest! Just come over and let’s divy up the stuff and have fun.

Yup! An enthusiastic 2nd vote on what you said from me. My boy's 7 years old, we've been playing together for a year and a half now. I figure even after he's married and left the ol' nest, I'll still be having games with him !

2 hours ago, AceWing said:

However, fixing turret impact would also be simple. If you're firing outside your firing arc, the defender adds an additional evade dice. It makes sense thematically and mechanically. Turrets would still be good and playing against them would be less boring. Flying would become more important, even for turrets.

One of the reasons that I've remained a Casual player and not entered into the competitive scene is that I haven't liked what has happened to some of my favourite ships (TIE Phantom, JumpMaster 5000) so I've been able to keep the original "as released design" specs without taking away from some of my fun.

Having said that - your idea is excellent, truly novel and I would fully endorse it and implement it even in my own casual games. If I think back to when I was still in Highschool, Star Wars RPG has a very similar rule for turret firing ships - at least for "unmanned" turrets (fired via remote control from bridge/command center). At least this way, you could still chuck as many dice as you normally do, but the defender would get some extra defense. And maybe, as I referenced back 25+ years ago, if a ship had a crew upgrade and it was equipped with say "Turret Gunner" then the defender would not get the bonus as the ship with the turret is investing in the cost of the upgrade along with it using up a slot, as opposed to using it with Gunner. However, for all other turret ships with no crew upgrade, too bad so sad - defender gets an extra evade die added.

"Will X-Wing still be around in 5, 10, 20 years?"

2 minutes ago, SlaveofChrist said:

If I think back to when I was still in Highschool, Star Wars RPG has a very similar rule for turret firing ships - at least for "unmanned" turrets (fired via remote control from bridge/command center). At least this way, you could still chuck as many dice as you normally do, but the defender would get some extra defense. And maybe, as I referenced back 25+ years ago, if a ship had a crew upgrade and it was equipped with say "Turret Gunner" then the defender would not get the bonus as the ship with the turret is investing in the cost of the upgrade along with it using up a slot, as opposed to using it with Gunner. However, for all other turret ships with no crew upgrade, too bad so sad - defender gets an extra evade die added.

Is this the WotC game?

2 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Is this the WotC game?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean...

...does this help?

26 minutes ago, SlaveofChrist said:

Yup! An enthusiastic 2nd vote on what you said from me. My boy's 7 years old, we've been playing together for a year and a half now. I figure even after he's married and left the ol' nest, I'll still be having games with him !

That’s great! I’m living that future world you describe — I’m the kid, grown up and on his own, and I still am the primary way my dad gets to war game. We try to met up at his or my place at least monthly to bust out the mat and get some ships flying. I really want him to get into epic — he has bought a few of the huge ships but now I need to get him to put them out there.

1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

That’s great! I’m living that future world you describe — I’m the kid, grown up and on his own, and I still am the primary way my dad gets to war game. We try to met up at his or my place at least monthly to bust out the mat and get some ships flying. I really want him to get into epic — he has bought a few of the huge ships but now I need to get him to put them out there.

Sweet! Very cool indeed ! Yes!!! You must get your Dad into Epic matches!!! Super fun!

You Sir get a medal of honour for your post!

(ScummyRebel, my new adopted son! )

3 minutes ago, SlaveofChrist said:

You Sir get a medal of honour for your post!

3 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Just make outmaneuver a base rule for arc locked ships.

It's the most thematic and simple solution. In SW if someone is behind you, you are ******.

Dang! Could be done via an FAQ without any new cards. I wonder if it would be too strong though....

12 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Dang! Could be done via an FAQ without any new cards. I wonder if it would be too strong though....

I doubt it, unless you think Firesprays with Tailgunner are too strong. Or if you see Wedge suddenly burning up the meta.

How does Warhammer 40K make it work? How do they do the rereleases? Do you have to buy all new models again? I've never played anything other than Imperial Assault and X-Wing.

2 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

How does Warhammer 40K make it work? How do they do the rereleases? Do you have to buy all new models again? I've never played anything other than Imperial Assault and X-Wing.

Disclaimer, I don’t play WH but I have a brother in law who does.

it depends - some of it needs purchasing, other stuff it’s just hard errata/recosting etc. I may have it wrong but I think it’s a mixed approach

2 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

How does Warhammer 40K make it work? How do they do the rereleases? Do you have to buy all new models again? I've never played anything other than Imperial Assault and X-Wing.

You gotta re-buy the rules every time, which are in books, but the models are good forever, even if they make newer versions of the same models. The weird thing with X wing is the cardboard, because if they changed a pilot or how stats work they'd have to sell all new versions of that. Not an insurmountable problem by any means, but if and when FFG decides to do that they'll have to sell Asmodee and The Mouse on the idea.

16 hours ago, Odanan said:

Earth will be fine. Humanity, on the other hand...

George Carlin approves.

As mentioned, I think Xwing will end when Disney doesn't allow FFG to renew its license and shifts to another company that paid more money. Star Wars movies every year, and TV shows etc will keep the characters and ships coming, even if it slows down to 1 maybe two waves a year. ****, we havent even got Sabine's Lambda yet.

11 minutes ago, wurms said:

As mentioned, I think Xwing will end when Disney doesn't allow FFG to renew its license and shifts to another company that paid more money. Star Wars movies every year, and TV shows etc will keep the characters and ships coming, even if it slows down to 1 maybe two waves a year. ****, we havent even got Sabine's Lambda yet.

Forget Sabine's ship of the week. Mining Guild Tie. Gotta complete the Tie-rinity.

Tie-Force?

16 hours ago, Odanan said:

The planned 4th trilogy, standalone movies and new TV series will ensure new content, BUT this means the game will continually drift away the core of the Star Wars fandom, which is focused on the OT. Because of that, the game will gradually lose its appeal.

With all due respect...

Stop pretending Prequel fans don't matter. Stop it. I enjoy all three eras, but I'm part of the era that grew up with the Prequels. Not as my introduction to Star Wars mind you, I was excited to see Episode I when I was 7. But I'd seen all the films prior, I already had strong attachments to established characters, I'd played loads of games that were set in the OT- really the only era at the time. In my lifetime I've been alive for the beginning of every new era but the post-ROTJ one kicked off by Zahn in 1991. I've witnessed each one since.

And I can firmly tell you...

That Prequel fans are many. But they don't talk about it, because they can't. They can't openly say how much they love the Clones or how much more interesting they think the Clone Wars are than the Galactic Civil War. They can't, because people clutching to the OT like it's all that could ever define Star Wars and themselves, can't seem to see that their opinions are not the only ones that matter, and haven't been since 1999.

The Sequel Trilogy will also have fans. Lots of fans. It has fans and honestly it needs a lot of time to grow, because the two preceding primary eras are bloated with information, even if you remove the EU. Which was still the smartest thing to do for Star Wars since commissioning Timothy Zahn to write the Thrawn Trilogy to keep Star Wars chugging along by kicking off a new sub-era with a great trilogy.

Yeah try to swallow that irony. It's weird.

But as things drift further from the OT? You know what can really, actually happen?

Star Wars can be allowed to grow.

Imagine if Star Trek was scared to ever move away from The Original Series. If they really thought that's all fans wanted. You want to know why Star Trek hasn't moved forward since Nemesis? Because the fans made it too risky. So they keep producing official content that's either a different reality of the OT or supplementary to it, such as Enterprise or Discovery, because they let the fans, let Star Trek stagnate- and it is stagnant.

Star Wars is not. Star Wars is moving forward. Perhaps, yes, the Sequel Trilogy is very, "It's like poetry, it rhymes" in maybe not the best way it could be that, but it is moving forward. Luke, Vader, Leia, Han, Chewie... These are not characters that will be with us forever in the series. Han is dead. Vader's been dead. Leia isn't going to be with us because she can't. Someday Luke won't be with us, **** Chewie has the most staying power because he's a costume. But these characters will reach their narrative limits.

We should let them. We absolutely should. We must allow new characters who are unrelated to the classic characters to come and and grow on their own merits. Not live in the shadows of the greats.

tl;dr it's okay to move away from the OT. Let it happen. We need to stop clinging to it.

6 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

How does Warhammer 40K make it work? How do they do the rereleases? Do you have to buy all new models again?

28 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

That looks about accurate.

They make it work by way of cornering a market and addiction.

3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

They make it work by way of cornering a market and addiction.

And via planned obsolescence. As @grandmoffjoe said, you have to update your rules (every 12-18 months or so) - both core rule books and army books, often radically changing the armies and lists you want to play. But I'd disagree with joe in that the models don't "last forever". Sure, there'll be people out there still stubbornly resisting commercialism by using the old Rogue Trader space marine kits, but with each new rulebook come new releases, wih new rules, new upgrades etc, so the temptation is always there to replace your lovingly built, converted, customised and painted models with the new plastic crack.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Imagine if Star Trek was scared to ever move away from The Original Series. If they really thought that's all fans wanted

Then game-wise, you pretty much end up with Star Fleet Battles. Which is not as great a thing as a lot of die-hard fans would have you believe.

7 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

How does Warhammer 40K make it work? How do they do the rereleases? Do you have to buy all new models again? I've never played anything other than Imperial Assault and X-Wing.

As noted, it's largely a combination of:

• New rules. You will need a 'core rulebook' which has a lifespan of...what? Maybe 2-3 years for the last editions? And an army book, whose lifespan is about the same but on a slightly different cycle. Add in extra 'content' in campaign books or so on.
  • Balance changes, such that 'assault marines suck now' or 'you need razorbacks with assault cannons to win' will naturally persuade the more competitive players to shell out for the new shiny thing.
  • Fundamental rules changes impacting army selection. Whilst a broadly background-fluffly army tends to stay broadly legal (if you have something that looked like a space marine battle company, you can fit it into a legal army list at any time in the last few editions), you often need to 'tweak' a list.
    • A current 'battalion' detachment needs a minimum of 2 hq choices, so whilst most people had more than 1 character in their army, if you didn't it's now compulsory.
    • Points cost drops are a common and usually popular option - if a space marine becomes cheaper, firstly space marine players are happy (because they get to field more stuff), secondly the company is happy (because they need to buy more stuff to fill the 'gap' in their list) and it's easier (because you're not dramatically rewriting the rules for a unit so it's easier to judge the balance point.
  • Deliberate 'why don't you buy this' rules boosts - releasing a 'detachment' with a really awesome rule that requires "these three units you were going to buy anyway and this one you wouldn't have but it makes the rest of the army REALLY GOOD in this combination" (like Khorne Daemonkin needing possessed for their army, or necrons needing tomb blades)
• New releases of nice models hoping to draw people in with new shiny things - either because it's prettier or more effective than the existing things.
  • Certainly from an age of sigmar perspective, the whole 'realms of magic' is in part to allow them to do umpty-ump variations of the same race; so as well as 'normal' dwarves (inherited from the Warhammer game), there are 'fire elemental' dwarves and 'steampunk' dwarves, and I'd imagine more variations will turn up over time.

23 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That looks about accurate.

They make it work by way of cornering a market and addiction.

That's not entirely fair (I'm not saying it's unjustified);

• A lot of their models are genuinely really, really good. Yes, other companies have popped up that do alternate bits or their own games but hand-on-heart, companies who can compete with the quality of sculpts for minatures wargames can be counted on one hand.
• A lot of their games are genuinely fun. I much preferred the smaller games to the '2000 points of crud littering a table', and they do seem to be trying to put some effort back into the stuff that previously came under the banner of 'specialist games' - Blood Bowl and Necromunda, for example.
  • I realise I've been spoiled by X-wing in enjoying an hour/hour and a half game that I can play 2-3 of in an evening, but, as long as the tactical depth is there, I don't see why a game has to be a half-hour-to-set-up-two-hour-to-play massive game of 40k. Battlefleet Gothic and Adeptus Titanicus were the same time frame as X-wing, and I loved them for the same reasons.
  • The problem with 'specialist games' from a company perspective was that you bought, say, a half-dozen plastic cruisers and then nothing else every again. Which is a bit of a sweeping statement (it wasn't quite that bad) but the long-term survivability of a game was driven by the releases for it and the support given to it.
    • X-wing has created a model where a small skirmish game works for medium-to-long term longevity by stealing a bit of the business model of living card games, because instead of having 'the rulebook', the game expands for every faction every time a new expansion is released. Which means that you don't need many releases (compared to 'the rulebook for the entire Space Marine faction) to keep interest, which means it actually feels like more stuff comes out.
    • It'll be interesting to see how Shadespire does, because it appears to be GW trying to do the same thing.
• They do put a lot of effort into the events they run - Warhammer World is an impressive sight, both in terms of galleries and the events hall and the time and effort the permenant events team puts into it.
  • What they don't do - and I think this is a mistake - is put the same effort into events support at local stores. I can't comment how well the Fate of Konor campaign was supported if you lived at the back of beyond and only got whatever support a local store could order online, but I hope they've realised their mistake, because the events support is one of several things that X-wing's success over the last few years has been built on. I'd say the main contributors (in no particular order):
    • 'It's Star Wars'
    • Selling via non-gaming-shops like WH Smiths, Waterstones, etc. alongside 'normal' board games
    • The speed of play - being able to play 2-3 games in an evening without feeling rushed
    • Organised Play events and the support thereto (alt art stuff, etc, including participation prizes but not including 'event winner only' unique ships that were just better than the normal ones) with a real attempt to actively engage with local stores
    • The low barrier to entry (both cash and 'effort' thanks to decent quality prepainted ships)