I guess my biggest concern is that if the most proficient spell caster in the world (int 5 and 5 ranks in arcana) only has a 13% success rate with casting a 3 purple difficulty spell, it makes magic seem super underwhelming and kind of disappointing. And yes, I know I can house rule it, but RAW (at least as the general consensus seems to be), there is bugger all chance of ever casting a higher level difficulty spell.

17 hours ago, Revanchist7 said:

Another thing that seems missed is that a Triumph can be used to activate weapon qualities too. 15/100 seems really low if that’s being factored in also.

Sadly, triumphs were factored in

2 hours ago, RagingJim said:

Sadly, triumphs were factored in

... Poorly .

1. A single triumph can be spent to activate any ability that can be activated with a set amount of advantage, regardless of the actual rolled advantage or disadvantage (or despair, for that matter). 2. The blast quality itself specifically can be activated regardless of actual rolled success or failure.

Therefore, the probability of activating blast can never be less than the probability of rolling at least one triumph. And this is true regardless of any other factors affecting the roll . The only things that can really mess with that are something that prevents spending triumphs to activate abilities or straight-up GM fiat.

For five proficiency dice, the probability of rolling at least one triumph is precisely equal to

1-(11/12)^5

Rounded down to the nearest percent, that's...

35%

5 hours ago, GM Hooly said:

Can’t cast Fireball at 1st Level if I recall

LOL. There is that! I should keep in mind that beginning characters in Genesys are thematically equivalent of a 1st level D&D character.

4 hours ago, RagingJim said:

I guess my biggest concern is that if the most proficient spell caster in the world (int 5 and 5 ranks in arcana) only has a 13% success rate with casting a 3 purple difficulty spell, it makes magic seem super underwhelming and kind of disappointing. And yes, I know I can house rule it, but RAW (at least as the general consensus seems to be), there is bugger all chance of ever casting a higher level difficulty spell.

As I pointed out in my posts on page 2 of this thread, that my unscientific experiment of rolling 20 times with a YYGG magician (easily a newly created Intellectual Character) casting a PPPP spell, I succeeded in casting 65% of the time. When I added in Aiming B and a Staff -P, that became 85% of the time. More if I count activating the blast quality even if missing (95%).

Now, as I discovered in a completely other thread on a completely different forum, that blast is going to do very, very little if I miss. But, as GM Hooly pointed out, this is a "first level" dude. And FLDs typically throw pretty simple spells.

8 hours ago, RagingJim said:

I guess my biggest concern is that if the most proficient spell caster in the world (int 5 and 5 ranks in arcana) only has a 13% success rate with casting a 3 purple difficulty spell, it makes magic seem super underwhelming and kind of disappointing. And yes, I know I can house rule it, but RAW (at least as the general consensus seems to be), there is bugger all chance of ever casting a higher level difficulty spell.

Uhhhhh, where are you getting those %s? A YYYYYPPP dice pool is going to be wayyyy more successful than 13%.

19 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Uhhhhh, where are you getting those %s? A YYYYYPPP dice pool is going to be wayyyy more successful than 13%.

Are we talking simple success or success with enough net advantages to trip ALL the purchased special effects?

Side note: the burn effect on a Genesys fireball is way more deadly than throwing a D&D fireball, where burn checks are seldom even made beyond the initial blast of damage. The burn condition is like hitting them with a new fireball every round until the target figures out how to extinguish the flames. d20 Fireball is really just a generic magic blast attack that will light the scroll you're reading but not much else unless the DM is a jerk and wants to make every exposed object roll a save.

I ended up using the "Contact Us" option because I could honestly see either side of "Spend advantage or not" being correct. According to the email I received, you DO still need to spend advantage to activate the quality. I know we sort of settled that already, but I found it a useful clarification....especially as it means the Implements I've created have a mechanical niche to fill now.


Everyone getting hung up on the "if it doesn't have Burn quality it's not fire" also sort of bugs me. You can easily flavor an attack action with Blast only as a fireball. It explodes, dealing damage, which is pretty much what a D&D Fireball is anyway.

I

2 minutes ago, Dragonshadow said:

Are we talking simple success or success with enough net advantages to trip ALL the purchased special effects?

Side note: the burn effect on a Genesys fireball is way more deadly than throwing a D&D fireball, where burn checks are seldom even made beyond the initial blast of damage. The burn condition is like hitting them with a new fireball every round until the target figures out how to extinguish the flames. Fireball is really just a generic magic blast attack that will light the scroll you're reading but not much else unless the DM is a jerk and wants to make every exposed object roll a save.

Both. YYYYYPPP is going to be overwhelmingly successful most times. To dive into the details, since he said PPP that means only a single effect attached, not a big hill to climb with that dice pool at all.

3 minutes ago, Cyvaris said:

Everyone getting hung up on the "if it doesn't have Burn quality it's not fire" also sort of bugs me. You can easily flavor an attack action with Blast only as a fireball. It explodes, dealing damage, which is pretty much what a D&D Fireball is anyway.

Burn need not be taken so literally either, or rather assumed to mean fire. In SW the Burn effect is used for acid as well. In a magic setting it's pretty much any lingering effect you want hanging out, acid, sticky poison, the ghostly hands of some necrotic effect tearing at the target, etc. This is where the user has to insert their imagination tab into the correct slot....

13 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Burn need not be taken so literally either, or rather assumed to mean fire. In SW the Burn effect is used for acid as well. In a magic setting it's pretty much any lingering effect you want hanging out, acid, sticky poison, the ghostly hands of some necrotic effect tearing at the target, etc. This is where the user has to insert their imagination tab into the correct slot....

Exactly. I already have a "Druid" style character in my head that I really want to play. "Knockdown" for him would be hurling GIANT BOULDERS at people. That said, I'm really peeved that by RAW the "move a target by one range band" effect is Arcana only; Primal needs a "I conjure roots/vines to fling people about" effect darn it!

5 minutes ago, Cyvaris said:

Exactly. I already have a "Druid" style character in my head that I really want to play. "Knockdown" for him would be hurling GIANT BOULDERS at people. That said, I'm really peeved that by RAW the "move a target by one range band" is Arcana only; Primal needs a "I conjure roots/vines to fling people about."

I spose, but what you're peeved about as a PC I see as an opportunity for a magic item or custom Talent as a GM.

Folks, if everyone gets what they want as a PC under all conditions right from session 0 you're taking away from your GMs ability to reward you as a campaign progresses.

14 minutes ago, Cyvaris said:

Exactly. I already have a "Druid" style character in my head that I really want to play. "Knockdown" for him would be hurling GIANT BOULDERS at people. That said, I'm really peeved that by RAW the "move a target by one range band" effect is Arcana only; Primal needs a "I conjure roots/vines to fling people about" effect darn it!

To be fair, I get the impression that the core magic skills are more of a useful working example than a set-in-stone law for all Genesys fantasy settings (we don't know how many of the demo's skills will make it into the inevitable Terrinoth setting guide, but I think the Runes are a pretty safe bet, at least). If you're developing your own setting, you can adjust the balance of the Primal skill to better fit your vision (though obviously it can't do everything ).

For "Attack" I sort of feel every option (Apart from Holy/Unholy) should be open to all magic traditions. Stun and Poison are both things "Arcane" magic should have no issue doing. The other Disciplines being limited though is fine, and actually works with how I plan to handle/limit magic in my games.

1 hour ago, rsdockery said:

To be fair, I get the impression that the core magic skills are more of a useful working example than a set-in-stone law for all Genesys fantasy settings (we don't know how many of the demo's skills will make it into the inevitable Terrinoth setting guide, but I think the Runes are a pretty safe bet, at least). If you're developing your own setting, you can adjust the balance of the Primal skill to better fit your vision (though obviously it can't do everything ).

I agree. I suspect I'll break the types of spells into purchasable talents, or perhaps with "you gain one new type per rank of your skill" so the caster can grown into their abilities. And then I'll create numerous talents to augment strain or difficulty so the casters can grow further into specialty areas.

There are probably iconic spells and druidic abilities (particularly with shifting involved) that would justify all spell types for all casting skills. Maybe less so for arcane and healing, but it's not impossible, particularly when arcane includes necromancy.

Typically in the career books you'll see Talents added. Sections on new ways to consider using Skills. Charts with new result options in situations. So no one should assume this is the end all to how magic functions in FFG's eyes.

This is exactly what I did for my Avatar conversion.

I had already converted Force Powers into Bending Forms for my Avatar: The Second Age conversion and in doing so, I genericized the rules to be more modular. Genesys really just streamlined a lot of those rules, and essentially went in the same direction I did (requiring the character suffer strain to use a power, regardless of whether it succeeds, for example). My Bending Forms were upgradeable like Force Powers and were set up as trees at first; users could change the difficulty or intensity of the bending form to change the way it behaved. Genesys did this as well with "Additional Effects"

I guess what I am saying is that I really didn't have to change too much . Except I got rid of trees and made it a bit more free-form like Genesys' layout.

Instead of benders having access to all of their forms at once, they have access to a couple of basic form actions (and maneuvers). Everything else must be acquired through experience. The "Additional Effects" are universal for each element, but each element has several effects unique to it. These tables are applicable to all of a bender's forms, but some forms have unique "Mastery" or "Finesse" upgrades. Finally, even though they have a base form (which is essentially just a magic skill check), the form can be upgraded with an Additional Effect (in Avatar its called Finesse) so that the user may employ that effect at any time for that form only . Benders can upgrade their forms up to five times, gaining one 'upgrade slot' per rank in the Bending Arts skill. Nearly all upgrades requires some amount of XP (5 - 20) depending on what the finesse does, and this is to reflect the training and learning that a bender needs to undergo in order to master their bending art.

2 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Burn need not be taken so literally either, or rather assumed to mean fire. In SW the Burn effect is used for acid as well. In a magic setting it's pretty much any lingering effect you want hanging out, acid, sticky poison, the ghostly hands of some necrotic effect tearing at the target, etc. This is where the user has to insert their imagination tab into the correct slot....

This. FFG's system does require a bit of creative thinking to separate out mechanical effect and description. Not everything with Burn is fire, and just because it doesn't have the Burn quality doesn't mean it's not fire--"Burn" just means it does repeated damage. Most of the time, getting burned by something doesn't do repeated damage, unless whatever is doing the damage (a fire, acid, etc.) is still present. Get splashed with hot oil and you take damage. It doesn't continue into the next round unless your shirt catches on fire.

Same with Blast. Just because Blast doesn't activate doesn't mean there wasn't an explosion (arcane or fire or whatever), just that mechanically it doesn't do damage to targets beyond the primary target. It may mean the explosion wasn't as large as desired, or that your aim was off and didn't catch everyone in the blast effect, or simply that everyone scattered when they saw a ball of arcane fire screaming toward them.

Color and effect are very different things.

2 hours ago, Cyvaris said:

Exactly. I already have a "Druid" style character in my head that I really want to play. "Knockdown" for him would be hurling GIANT BOULDERS at people. That said, I'm really peeved that by RAW the "move a target by one range band" effect is Arcana only; Primal needs a "I conjure roots/vines to fling people about" effect darn it!

That sounds like an awesome opportunity for a GM to give you a quest. Don't the Keepers of the Grove know the Rite of the Awakened Roots? If you can win their trust and mentorship, they may be willing to teach you their rituals...

On 12/4/2017 at 8:26 AM, 2P51 said:

Both. YYYYYPPP is going to be overwhelmingly successful most times. To dive into the details, since he said PPP that means only a single effect attached, not a big hill to climb with that dice pool at all.

P is the base at short range. Blast and Burn each add one more P, so PPP would require 4 advantage to trigger.

This is basically a 10% chance to trigger both effects (not counting triumph).

Including Triumph results, I get a 21% chance to trigger both effects for this maxed out character, which is pretty grim.

Strain averages around 1.6 points 4 points, since we're spending all our advantage on the effects .

The simple answer is that even a master wizard can't expect to trigger two active effects. Having an appropriate implement helps. With a wand or magic ring the chance goes up to 32%, but he'll still be failing more often than he succeeds.

22 minutes ago, ubik2 said:

P is the base at short range. Blast and Burn each add one more P, so PPP would require 4 advantage to trigger.

This is basically a 10% chance to trigger both effects (not counting triumph).

Including Triumph results, I get a 21% chance to trigger both effects for this maxed out character, which is pretty grim.

Strain averages around 4 points, since we're spending all our advantage on the effects.

The simple answer is that even a master wizard can't expect to trigger two active effects. Having an appropriate implement helps. With a wand or magic ring the chance goes up to 32%, but he'll still be failing more often than he succeeds.

I have not the book, yet. I thought casting a spell does only cost two strain. Is there something else costing additional strain in the process? You mention 4 points of strain on average.

5 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

I have not the book, yet. I thought casting a spell does only cost two strain. Is there something else costing additional strain in the process? You mention 4 points of strain on average.

Off topic, I'm afraid: Is it on the way, already? The premium (i.e. 50,- €) supplier in DE is having it in stock.

In lieu of an answer: Should have it in about 1 h; when the brat is finally in bed, I'm going to check.

10 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

I have not the book, yet. I thought casting a spell does only cost two strain. Is there something else costing additional strain in the process? You mention 4 points of strain on average.

Threat gets spent to increase strain, and an uncountered threat buys two strain instead of one for magic. Since the player's advantage is all dumped on effects, on average there's just under 1 uncountered threat (which could be taken as a wound, but I imagine the player will generally prefer strain).

1 minute ago, ubik2 said:

Threat gets spent to increase strain, and an uncountered threat buys two strain instead of one for magic. Since the player's advantage is all dumped on effects, on average there's just under 1 uncountered threat (which could be taken as a wound, but I imagine the player will generally prefer strain).

Is it possible now to use advantages before cancelling out???

15 minutes ago, Grimmerling said:

Is it possible now to use advantages before cancelling out???

Oops. Good catch. I wasn't thinking clearly. The proper average strain is actually only 1.6.

The success chances weren't affected by that mistake.

30 minutes ago, Grimmerling said:

Off topic, I'm afraid: Is it on the way, already? The premium (i.e. 50,- €) supplier in DE is having it in stock.

Ah Amazon? Funny, Morgenwelt does not have it on ikn stock on their own website