Besides zeb (who's pretty much designed to be an endgame crutch to save you from being tabled quickly) all the phantom 2 are going to work better out of the ghost.

If you want the rear arc spend the points on torps+EM instead for half the cost. ( The ghost can use them out the rear arc without a docked shuttle)

I could see fringe use as a "drop pod" in round 2/3 to make sure it misses the initial furball to avoid damage or if it cant keep up with the movement on the ghost to be on the far side of the table.

3 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

....Don’t you mean sheathed or unsheathed?

Exactly. Sounds like it's pretty much always docked.

You want it flying around, you need an Unsheathipede.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Exactly. Sounds like it's pretty much always docked.

You want it flying around, you need an Unsheathipede.

I think it presents a bit pointier when undocked.

6 hours ago, Dasharr said:

There's more to it than just a free action. Those 2-4 point upgrades you mentioned usually have some associated cost to them, either direct (stress from PtL) or indirect (using up a valuable upgrade slot you'd much rather have for something else) or something else.

The free action from the new Ghost can give action economy to a ship that just couldn't get it otherwise, or it can stack with any action economy it already had.

One more thing that's easy to overlook is that this free action is at the end of the activation phase. That is a big deal. It's an action at pilot skill infinity, with all that implies. Target locks for ordnance strikes from ships too low PS to reliably lock on their own, arc-dodging shenanigans, action-bombs from low PS bombers that can be placed either on their own early activations or the free-action last activation... there are lots of possibilities here.

Yeah I agree with this. Coordinates is totally understimate in my opinion.

Just make sure the ghost is consenting when you dock it.

44 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

Just make sure the ghost is consenting when you dock it.

This is very important in today’s political climate.

9 hours ago, Dasharr said:

There's more to it than just a free action. Those 2-4 point upgrades you mentioned usually have some associated cost to them, either direct (stress from PtL) or indirect (using up a valuable upgrade slot you'd much rather have for something else) or something else.

The free action from the new Ghost can give action economy to a ship that just couldn't get it otherwise, or it can stack with any action economy it already had.

One more thing that's easy to overlook is that this free action is at the end of the activation phase. That is a big deal. It's an action at pilot skill infinity, with all that implies. Target locks for ordnance strikes from ships too low PS to reliably lock on their own, arc-dodging shenanigans, action-bombs from low PS bombers that can be placed either on their own early activations or the free-action last activation... there are lots of possibilities here.

which is not terribly different to vi fenn, for what it's worth. The issue with many of the ghost's advantages is you're investing 40+ points into a ship which will be lucky to have 3 rounds with anything packing 4 dice attacks and can fly , but trading the out of arc offense it lacks for it's points with phantom 1 for a free action elsewhere.

The other point is to fly a ghost well you have to be aggressive, it has to get in and do it's damage before it melts or gives away mov, and it's rather hard to build a bigger threat to protect it. I've been flying double ghost/phantom 1 for nearly as long as they've been out and if nothing else it shows it's shortcomings and why there's a reason the only ghosts we've seen anywhere near competitively for a good while are lists built around keeping kanan alive. You may be able to pull out some new tricks with that coordinate, but i doubt it's going to account for the lost offense.

As i've said elsewhere though they are going to become the new "biggs". It wont be a case of rules saying you must shoot them 1st, but ap5/ezra/fenn built right can give an amazing amount of utility or control to a list that's just too hard to ignore on a 5 health ship unless you are supremely confident you can cripple the list elsewhere quickly, which is awesome/borderline ridiculous for the points.

One benefit of keeping the Phantom II docked is you give it an extra 16 hit points.

Let's presume we do want to have a docked Phantom II, then work backwards and figure out what would have in the list. Clearly, a Ghost, but also some other ship which will benefit from a free action after the activation phase. Lothal Rebel and AP-5 start at 50 points without upgrades. Presuming you actually want a few upgrades on those two ships, you'd be limited to high 30s or low-40s on the second ship. VI Corran at 42 might work, some forms of Poe, or maybe just Lowhhrick.

Comparing the two titles, I don't necessarily think it's wide a gap. A second set of turret shots is a damage or two. If you can get an extra damage or two from the free action, that'll be about the same. Likewise, it's harder to quantify the value of using a boost or barrel roll to get a Poe or Corran out of arc. Is that worth more than a TLT shot? Perhaps not, if your opponent is just going to shoot the Ghost anyhow. However, if you're able to move another ship into position to get a shot, that might be more valuable. Thing is, there aren't too many ships which would arc-dodge a VI Corran, but a low PS ship with high damage potential doesn't really exist. B-Wing with HLC? I can tell you it's not a K-Wing Bomber, since you can't SLAM on free actions.

For extra damage, if you've got a Lowhhrick with Maul and C-3P0, getting an focus will mean getting about 0.7 more hits on a 3-dice attack. That doesn't seem more valuable to me an extra turret shot.

For a dodgy ace? 42 for a VI Corran leaves pretty much only this for what I can see: AP-5 with Inspiring Recruit, and a Lothal Rebel with Rey, FCS, a cheap turret (maybe I like Dorsal here? Autoblaster could get AP a droid...), and a 0-cost crew. I'm thinking Courier Droid, to deploy the whole list at 8+, but clearly Chopper could fit, too. Maybe VI ought to be dropped for something else, since you can be barrel rolled after. 2 points between that and Autoblaster... Juke Corran?

I don't really like any of this.

I mean, we all kinda knew Phantom II probably wasn't going to cut it (only 3 points cheaper at best, and a free action isn't as good as a free turret attack), but I think it's an interesting exercise to presume it will work, and see how the list looks once built.

32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

One benefit of keeping the Phantom II docked is you give it an extra 16 hit points.

Let's presume we do want to have a docked Phantom II, then work backwards and figure out what would have in the list. Clearly, a Ghost, but also some other ship which will benefit from a free action after the activation phase. Lothal Rebel and AP-5 start at 50 points without upgrades. Presuming you actually want a few upgrades on those two ships, you'd be limited to high 30s or low-40s on the second ship. VI Corran at 42 might work, some forms of Poe, or maybe just Lowhhrick.

Comparing the two titles, I don't necessarily think it's wide a gap. A second set of turret shots is a damage or two. If you can get an extra damage or two from the free action, that'll be about the same. Likewise, it's harder to quantify the value of using a boost or barrel roll to get a Poe or Corran out of arc. Is that worth more than a TLT shot? Perhaps not, if your opponent is just going to shoot the Ghost anyhow. However, if you're able to move another ship into position to get a shot, that might be more valuable. Thing is, there aren't too many ships which would arc-dodge a VI Corran, but a low PS ship with high damage potential doesn't really exist. B-Wing with HLC? I can tell you it's not a K-Wing Bomber, since you can't SLAM on free actions.

For extra damage, if you've got a Lowhhrick with Maul and C-3P0, getting an focus will mean getting about 0.7 more hits on a 3-dice attack. That doesn't seem more valuable to me an extra turret shot.

For a dodgy ace? 42 for a VI Corran leaves pretty much only this for what I can see: AP-5 with Inspiring Recruit, and a Lothal Rebel with Rey, FCS, a cheap turret (maybe I like Dorsal here? Autoblaster could get AP a droid...), and a 0-cost crew. I'm thinking Courier Droid, to deploy the whole list at 8+, but clearly Chopper could fit, too. Maybe VI ought to be dropped for something else, since you can be barrel rolled after. 2 points between that and Autoblaster... Juke Corran?

I don't really like any of this.

I mean, we all kinda knew Phantom II probably wasn't going to cut it (only 3 points cheaper at best, and a free action isn't as good as a free turret attack), but I think it's an interesting exercise to presume it will work, and see how the list looks once built.

but now compare that to some of the phantom 2 builds getting around.

Take ap5/ inspiring recuit/m9g8.

For 18 points (same as phantom 1 zeb) you have a ship that can give a fawx predator of force enemy hit rerolls + essentially gives AS (ps1) with stress removal to one of your other ships......and the (rare i'll admit)odd damage?

Would you rather have all that or the ghost just doing the coordinate with it's timing and save 3 points?

On 12/3/2017 at 10:35 AM, Ralgon said:

but now compare that to some of the phantom 2 builds getting around.

Take ap5/ inspiring recuit/m9g8.

For 18 points (same as phantom 1 zeb) you have a ship that can give a fawx predator of force enemy hit rerolls + essentially gives AS (ps1) with stress removal to one of your other ships......and the (rare i'll admit)odd damage?

Would you rather have all that or the ghost just doing the coordinate with it's timing and save 3 points?

Thing is, if you start with that 19-point (15+1+3) Phantom II docked, you don't get any of that benefit. You just get the coordinate from the Ghost, and rear-arc shots. If you aren't starting docked (or rather, start docked and deploy first round), a loose VCX might not be the right ship for the list, since it's pretty pricey, and it'll be hard to get the kind of 3rd ship which can really benefit from AP-5 tricks given the cost of everything else in the list.

Taking AP-5 in a non-Ghost list might be fine (compare Ahsoka Tano and Airen Craken), but I just don't see Ghost/Phantom II working as well as Ghost/Phantom I in a VCX list. The extra action almost surely isn't going to be as strong as an extra attack. If the right ship existed, perhaps it could be, but I don't think that right ship is out there for Rebels right now.

undocked

imo the new title is wasted. Ghost+bug will be around 3/4 your list unless you bring a more bareboned ghost. Rebels have very, very few ships that are under30pts and worth a ****, and around 25-30pts is what you got to work with.
Issue isnt finding a ship to fill those points its finding a ship to fill those points that can become more of a problem due to the free action via coordinate.

Well for 15 pts you get another 90 degrees of firing arc and a free action right before combat. The doubling of the firing arc isn't bad but is it isn't a turret or torp, both can be loaded up for less than 15 pts. So it really comes down to the free action and what you can do with it. An early game alpha strike with missile loaded Z-95s or A WIngs can really disrupt a combo list. After that, you get to clean up with the 4 attack VCX. Otherwise I don't see that action being very useful. You got to get a lot of bang out of it.