@TallGiraffe You're correct. I misremembered.

It might not have been a good trade-off either way, as it’d be a modest decrease in reliability.

I'm excited about this thread. A miniatures community needs a unit 'declared dead' to be a real community. We're all grown up!

13 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I'm excited about this thread. A miniatures community needs a unit 'declared dead' to be a real community. We're all grown up!

Debate is a key factor in keeping an artificial community alive. It helps boost involvement by making sure community members consider things they otherwise might not. Fixed consensus can lead to (or be a symptom of) stagnation.

Ultimately, this community doesn’t matter too much, for good or for ill, aside from being very visible and vocal.

Along those lines, I think it important to clarify my position: I don’t feel that Daqan is somehow wronged or significantly disadvantaged by Rune Golems being a weak choice. I’m of the personal opinion that Spearmen are the strongest melee infantry in the game by a modest margin, and it is in part their strength that causes me to discount the Rune Golems.

While FFG is quite notoriously hands-off with actually speaking on these forums, it's quite clear that they read them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

So I really like having them in 1x1 formation out front to help block for my ranged attacks, and intercept charges. I also like the flexibility of having many units, so what could I use instead to replace a single 1x1 RG?

Let's do some comparison with a naked 2x1 Spearman unit

1. Spearmen are 18 pts (5.8% more expensive).
2. Spearman 2 threat (RG averages 2.5 threat)
3. Spearman can shield wall while moving, but not once engaged (so slightly better at long ranges receiving damage).
4. Spearman can be decreased to a 1-tray 1-threat unit, RG maintain their full damage potential until dead.
5. 2 red dice is better than `1 red/1 blue dice for raw damage output when naked with no useful surge abilities.
6. Spearman move 2 at init 4, RG can also move 2 at init 4 (average case for Unstable energy)
7. <Edited> Spearman can rally / defense at init 3 -- RG can stun and armor up at init 3 (so 16 effective health vs 10-12, but the RG lands 1-2 stuns)
8. Spearman are 2 trays wide -- slightly harder to maneuver and more easily block LOS for my archers
9. <Edited> You can pass some units over the top of a 1x1 RG tray if they move fast enough
10. White reform at the end of RG movement can angle incoming charges for easier flanking opportunities
11. I can walk my RG right next to your stupid flaming Uthuk forest and not take damage
12. Spearman can actually turn, so much less predictable in where they end up
13. RGs can white rally modifier in the early turns to build up inspiration w/o the need of Hawthorne
14. Minimum sized Spearman 2x1's can take upgrades

So in my opinion, in the role of blocking for my archers, I like the RG. But I should probably try swapping one of them out for a 2x1 Spearman just to see what else I'm missing.

27 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

So I really like having them in 1x1 formation out front to help block for my ranged attacks, and intercept charges. I also like the flexibility of having many units, so what could I use instead to replace a single 1x1 RG?

Let's do some comparison with a naked 2x1 Spearman unit

1. Spearmen are 18 pts (5.8% more expensive).
2. Spearman 2 threat (RG averages 2.5 threat)
3. Spearman can shield wall while moving, but not once engaged (so slightly better at long ranges receiving damage).
4. Spearman can be decreased to a 1-tray 1-threat unit, RG maintain their full damage potential until dead.
5. 2 red dice is better than `1 red/1 blue dice for raw damage output when naked with no useful surge abilities.
6. Spearman move 2 at init 4, RG can also move 2 at init 4 (average case for Unstable energy)
7. Spearman can attack at init 3 -- RG can stun and armor up at init 3 (not as good, but can allow them to 'tank' longer)
8. Spearman are 2 trays wide -- slightly harder to maneuver and more easily block LOS for my archers
9. You can trivially pass any unit over the top of a 1x1 RG tray
10. White reform at the end of RG movement can angle incoming charges for easier flanking opportunities
11. I can walk my RG right next to your stupid flaming Uthuk forest and not take damage
12. Spearman can actually turn, so much less predictable in where they end up
13. RGs can white rally modifier in the early turns to build up inspiration w/o the need of Hawthorne

So in my opinion, in the role of blocking for my archers, I like the RG. But I should probably try swapping one of them out for a 2x1 Spearman just to see what else I'm missing.

Good analysis.

All I would add is that the Spearmen can take Fire Rune and/or Rallying Cornicen at minimum size.

More expensive than the RG alternative, and still wider. Both true.

However, at 3 trays wide, x-bowmen won't struggle TOO much with a blind spot from two trays, and ideally speaking the blocking unit shouldn't have to do that much fighting. Being able to toss ranged hits and/or ready upgrades like Tempered Steel on the x-bowmen is really, REALLY nice.

1 hour ago, Glucose98 said:

1. Spearman can shield wall while moving, but not once engaged (so slightly better at long ranges receiving damage).
2. You can trivially pass any unit over the top of a 1x1 RG tray

Just a couple things here:

• Spearmen can Rally+Defense at initiative 3, going into "turtle mode". This is pretty similar to the Rune Golem Stunning+Defense, and worth looking at. With Defense 2, it takes 16 damage or 8 mortal wounds to destroy the Spearmen. The Golem takes 10-12 damage or 2 Mortal Wounds. If we assume (generously) that the Rune Golem is stunning off a Hit modifier from a Threat 3 unit, that 10-12 looks a little more like 13-15, but that's hard to analyze in a vacuum. Against enemies that hit reasonably hard, the Golem probably dies in 2 attacks, and so do the Spearmen. Against very weak units, the Golem might survive the whole game where the Spearmen would get chipped down. The Spearmen are more likely to survive more than one attack from truly terrifying blenders. The golem falls over trivially against Mortal Strikes. I prefer the Spearmen for a meat shield.
• Passing over even a single tray is not so trivial. Even if you start your move touching the back of it, you have to move 2+number of ranks in your unit to clear it. Still easier than the Spearmen, sure, but difficult.

5 hours ago, backupsidekick said:

Just consider that the rune golems were not intended to represent the steadfastness of the rock they are made of, but reflect the empowering nature of the magic that moves them. They represent that the runes and rolls can be for you and make them an unstoppable force, or they can fizzle. I would gladly pay 2 more per carrion lancer if it meant that I got 1-2 threat added per attack. I'd even give up their surge ability if I could roll 2 red dice instead of 2 blue dice that don't have nearly as many hits as surge's and precision icons (which deal exactly 0 damage).

So ignoring the Rune Golem debate for a second, I want to encourage you to spend some more time really getting the most out of Carrion Lancers. My roommate and I have definitely gained huge respect for them over time, and they're surely my most hated enemy. The blight spit isn't TOO useful but does come up from time to time, but they have a pretty solid set of maneuvers, plus two great options: Reform+Defense at initiative 3, so they almost ALWAYS take and redirect a charge like a champ, and Rally+Advance 3 at initiative 3, so they can frequently avoid being charged, engage a unit before it has a chance to move, sieze an objective, or intercept an enemy unexpectedly. Even just knowing it's an option forces your opponent to think differently.

I strongly recommend trying a 2x1 with Rank Discipline. It's a great little unit with excellent overall utility AND a great threat vector of Mortal Strikes.

23 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Just a couple things here:

• Spearmen can Rally+Defense at initiative 3, going into "turtle mode". This is pretty similar to the Rune Golem Stunning+Defense, and worth looking at. With Defense 2, it takes 16 damage or 8 mortal wounds to destroy the Spearmen. The Golem takes 10-12 damage or 2 Mortal Wounds. If we assume (generously) that the Rune Golem is stunning off a Hit modifier from a Threat 3 unit, that 10-12 looks a little more like 13-15, but that's hard to analyze in a vacuum. Against enemies that hit reasonably hard, the Golem probably dies in 2 attacks, and so do the Spearmen. Against very weak units, the Golem might survive the whole game where the Spearmen would get chipped down. The Spearmen are more likely to survive more than one attack from truly terrifying blenders. The golem falls over trivially against Mortal Strikes. I prefer the Spearmen for a meat shield.
• Passing over even a single tray is not so trivial. Even if you start your move touching the back of it, you have to move 2+number of ranks in your unit to clear it. Still easier than the Spearmen, sure, but difficult.

Thanks -- added that edit into my list (the spearman rally + defense). I would say that the stun tokens can also be used after the RG is dead to prevent the next charge against your ranged units as well (but not the engagement)

I agree you're correct that moving through your RG's isn't very easy given tray depth. You're having to move 3 straight to do it if you're running a 1 tray deep unit. They can however 'turn' through the golem pretty easily at least. I edited out the trivial to reflect that.

1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:

I strongly recommend trying a 2x1 with Rank Discipline. It's a great little unit with excellent overall utility AND a great threat vector of Mortal Strikes.

At the risk of derailing the thread, this is my go-to set up for Carrion Lancers. I run them with a blighted Spearmen unit with War Crier, thanks to Ankaur Maro. The initiatives work out to hand a blight token to a target from the War Crier after the the target has activated (so they can't clear the bane with rally or inspiration), but before the Carrion Lancers attack, making Mortal Strikers more reliable. It doesn't feel overwhelmingly powerful, but it's been a solid, reliable combo.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

At the risk of derailing the thread, this is my go-to set up for Carrion Lancers. I run them with a blighted Spearmen unit with War Crier, thanks to Ankaur Maro. The initiatives work out to hand a blight token to a target from the War Crier after the the target has activated (so they can't clear the bane with rally or inspiration), but before the Carrion Lancers attack, making Mortal Strikers more reliable. It doesn't feel overwhelmingly powerful, but it's been a solid, reliable combo.

If I'm running Ardus, I almost always use Host of Crows to put MCW+CI on the 2x1 Lancers.

Missing the free re-roll is definitely a risk, but they are a tough and dangerous unit, plus they let Ardus borrow the surge.

i find it insanely hard to not put windrunes on my golems.

Reason: it not only enables them to sidestep people (oh that was GLORIOUS when i sidestepped a cavalry unit and he whiffed his init4 charge) but it also enables him to move and armor up.

Assuming runes arent being total douchebags to you, he will move 2speed and have +1-2 armor. The only ranged attacks ive come across that can hurt them once they armor up is the 3x2 latari unit, and the general concensus is MSU is better for them anyway. Technically same could apply for waiqar archers but who the heck uses non 2x1 of those for maximum blightage? And once armored up you need 3 damagethreat2 or threat3+ to hurt them so if someone charges them theyre probably not getting hurt that round.

It takes an extra turn on average to get anywhere, but ive never had him get bopped while trying to engage. Course then we fall back on the original problem of no die mods or surge uses so guess what i rolled on the attack when i finally get there? surge blank....ugh...

i really wish the single tray had SOMETHING for upgrade options. Thats another problem he has, the 17pt variant cant bring anything at all to help his performance. Complete bs imo

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:41 PM, Tvayumat said:

While FFG is quite notoriously hands-off with actually speaking on these forums, it's quite clear that they read them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I want that job.

Job Description:

Read forums and report back to corporate on what you've learned.

On 12/5/2017 at 4:41 PM, Tvayumat said:

While FFG is quite notoriously hands-off with actually speaking on these forums, it's quite clear that they read them. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Well it is possible. On the Xwing forums there is a huge post about the Gunboat ship and it actually got made.