2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

*CAN* move faster. CAN.

You're going to need to provide some citations.

I've played a lot of Runewars, and in practice, these statements are simply untrue.

Rune Golems are slow, unreliable, extremely predictable, brittle, and prone to blanking out their rolls.

I have played against the Rune Golems many times. Probably some 20+ games. Am I going to lie and say they can't die early, no. Am I going to say they are better than the other options that the Daqan players have, no to that too. However, I feel that you are paying for potential with these units. I've seen them die without swinging, but I've seen Ardus do that 100% more than the rune golems. The problem is that the rune golems can be great or can not be great based on runes, but every argument I have seen is only taking into consideration bad runes and bad rolls, and when I bring up good runes and good rolls, everyone just says it's the best case scenario so it shouldn't be considered. You have to look at both options.

Now, for this conversation to have merit, there should be some foundation. The Rune Golem is a siege unit so comparing it to cavalry or infantry isn't a fair comparison. So saying "it's not as good as this other option on my team" doesn't mean it should be made better, if it stacks up comparably to other units of the same kind.

So: Maneuverability, the carrion lancer can't reform and move, the Rune golem can. The carrion lancer can't move 4 spaces at initiative 4, it moves 2, which is the same as the Rune Golem (unless it's blank runes, but that's a 25% chance of happening). The Rune golem can't perform a turn during a march. So, maneuverability is not just handed over to the carrion lancer. If players don't know how to plan then yes you can out maneuver a rune golem, but you can also do that with a carrion lancer, the difference is that the carrion lancer will be busy spending a turn reforming before it can move again, where the rune golem can reform in the same turn.

When saying the carrion lancer "can" use blight for mortal wounds, it CAN'T blight AND attack in the same turn, so any argument of "combine this unit with this and..." is not referring to the unit itself and would devolve the conversation. How could we possibly get to the bottom of the conversation of best unit when combined with other units, and worst? Without using outside forces, just the dice given, the rune golem CAN (possibly) kill the carrion lancer in 1 attack, the carrion lancer can only break the armor on a really good roll, (again, without outside assistance from other units or the very rare blight before an attack and before the golem can rally). The only chance the carrion lancer has of pulling off the rare, blight in one turn and then attack the next before the rune golem moves is a lousy setup on the part of the daqan player, especially if they know it's coming. Considering the rune golem does have the option to rally and remove the blight before any movement options that the carrion lancer has the Rune Golem player could choose to move when they have initiative to avoid being attacked with blight on them.

Also, 4 damage is common, with threat of 2 and 2 hits, it's not common with threat of 1: which is what the carrion lancer has. 6 hits is more common than 8 hits because of blue dice. A 2 threat unit has to throw 2 red dice in order to get 8 hits. Even with 2 red dice it is more likely you will throw 6 hits than 8 which means 2 wounds on a carrion lancer and still only 1 on a rune golem.

As far as using the skill on the Rune Golem, yeah it doesn't get used. But it's still there, so to discount and say the carrion lancer has a skill but the golem doesn't that's not true (previous poster not you).

A lot of arguments about why the rune golem is underpowered are based on "this unit plus this unit means bad news for rune golem" but the same could be said about any unit. The executioner COULD kill Kari or Lord Hawthorn in a single turn but no one is saying they are under powered. As soon as you start comparing blight and a carrion lancer, it's either a rare encounter when single unit is able to blight and attack before the rune golem can rally (much rarer than a rune golem having 3 threat and hitting with at least 2 hits), or you are using synergies of 2 units together. If I have a 15 cost carrion lancer, combined with an 18 point set of archers with combat ingenuity for another x points, then yeah I sure hope it will out perform a rune golem, it's twice as many points!

Now, just because something isn't reliable, doesn't mean you don't consider the potential, and only consider worst case scenarios. It's true that the runes could never be in your favor, and the rolls are always blank, but that's the unreliability of the game as a whole. A 3x2 of carrion lancers with MCW and CI could also roll blanks on both rolls... and that would suck too. but that doesn't mean that the unit is broken or needs an upgrade, it just meant bad luck. On average there will be 2 red runes. On average you will roll 2 hits. The Rune Golem will always have at least a threat of 2, which means average of 4 hits. The carrion lancer will need all three dice to get a hit, and dial in a hit to get the same amount of damage as a base stat Rune Golem.

Hey, not divert too much from the main thrust of the argument, but two other as-of-yet unconsidered pro-golem points.

1. They look awesome and like half the people playing this game got into it because of rad they look. If you're one of those people, there probably is hope for building the army of your dreams and having it perform OK, even though there are more optimal choices.
2. In terms of optimal choices vs. real world $$... Let's grant the above argument that 6 spearmen is better than 2 Rune Golems. Six spearmen trays cost $75. Two Rune Golems cost $35. Sure, you could do cheaper by getting two core boxes, but you have Rune Golems in there too, which also keeps them cost effective.

Like I said in the original post, I'm not sold on them as the best way to build an army by any means, just pointing out that if that's what you wanted, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

Quote

So: Maneuverability, the carrion lancer can't reform and move, the Rune golem can. The carrion lancer can't move 4 spaces at initiative 4, it moves 2, which is the same as the Rune Golem (unless it's blank runes, but that's a 25% chance of happening). The Rune golem can't perform a turn during a march. So, maneuverability is not just handed over to the carrion lancer. If players don't know how to plan then yes you can out maneuver a rune golem, but you can also do that with a carrion lancer, the difference is that the carrion lancer will be busy spending a turn reforming before it can move again, where the rune golem can reform in the same turn

Did some kid steal your turn and bank templates?

I can, on one hand, name the times i've reformed with my Carrion Lancers. The most notable was at Worlds when I reformed them engaged with oathsworn to deny the obviously charging 2nd oathsworn block a flank. Oh, and they got +1 defense. They took 1 wound and murdered the Oathsworn the next turn. None of this had anything to do with maneuverability, but everything with a tactical choice while engaged in melee. I love their Init 3 Reform, because it gives me Init flexibility to do annoying things with them, especially vs. Daqan.

Rune Golems can't turn, oh, and they reform AFTER they move.

59 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

I've seen them die without swinging, but I've seen Ardus do that 100% more than the rune golems.

Let's not pretend that Rune Golems bring anything even remotely as flexible or useful as Host of Crows to the table.

Quote

Maneuverability, the carrion lancer can't reform and move, the Rune golem can. The carrion lancer can't move 4 spaces at initiative 4, it moves 2, which is the same as the Rune Golem (unless it's blank runes, but that's a 25% chance of happening).

The Carrion Lancer CAN Rally and March 3 at Initiative 3. If you haven't seen what this dial combo can do, you're drastically underestimating how wily the worms can be.

59 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

The problem is that the rune golems can be great or can not be great based on runes, but every argument I have seen is only taking into consideration bad runes and bad rolls, and when I bring up good runes and good rolls, everyone just says it's the best case scenario so it shouldn't be considered. You have to look at both options.

But see, I don't feel the same about other rune-reliant units at all.

The argument here seems to be "When the Stars (of Timmoran) align, the unit is great!"

But the truth of it is more like "When the stars align, the unit is... roughly as functional as several other units that generally cost fewer pts and are easier to use"

Rune Golems, under ideal circumstances, don't stand out. They don't do anything another unit couldn't do better, or at least with more regularity.

The same is simply not true of other Rune-reliant strategies or risk/reward scenarios. MOST Uthuk units benefit from red runes, for instance. Berserkers with Warsprinter are still a functional unit even on turns with no red runes, but when they DO have red runes, their "potential" involves making some of the fastest and most unpredictable charges in the game. Deathcaller depends on runes, but in a way that makes him a 50/50 shot at max damage, and never totally hamstrung, granting the unit in question a unique ability to throw unblockable wounds up to range 5.

For the potential of a rune based unit to outweigh the unpredictable nature of the runes, it has to have some pizazz. Rune Golems have no pizazz, they have no moxy, they have no gumption. Under the best of circumstances I'd classify them as "alright".

16 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

Hey, not divert too much from the main thrust of the argument, but two other as-of-yet unconsidered pro-golem points.

1. They look awesome and like half the people playing this game got into it because of rad they look. If you're one of those people, there probably is hope for building the army of your dreams and having it perform OK, even though there are more optimal choices.
2. In terms of optimal choices vs. real world $$... Let's grant the above argument that 6 spearmen is better than 2 Rune Golems. Six spearmen trays cost $75. Two Rune Golems cost $35. Sure, you could do cheaper by getting two core boxes, but you have Rune Golems in there too, which also keeps them cost effective.

Like I said in the original post, I'm not sold on them as the best way to build an army by any means, just pointing out that if that's what you wanted, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

I agree with both of these, though I disregard the second for the purposes of this discussion.

They look amazing. I want them to be good. I hope to see them tweaked or otherwise given a role to fill.

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

The argument here seems to be "When the Stars (of Timmoran) align, the unit is great!"...

But the truth of it is more like "When the stars align, the unit is... roughly as functional as several other units that generally cost fewer pts and are easier to use"

Rune Golems, under ideal circumstances, don't stand out. They don't do anything another unit couldn't do better, or at least with more regularity.

For the potential of a rune based unit to outweigh the unpredictable nature of the runes, it has to have some pizazz. Rune Golems have no pizazz, they have no moxy, they have no gumption. Under the best of circumstances I'd classify them as "alright".

12 damage. 18 points, dealing 12 damage. Flanking would be potential of 18 damage. 18 points, for 18 damage potential. Let that sink in.

1 minute ago, backupsidekick said:

12 damage. 18 points, dealing 12 damage. Flanking would be potential of 18 damage. 18 points, for 18 damage potential. Let that sink in.

On a perfect roll, in a perfect scenario.

As you said, let's look at the other side of it.

Blank dice. 0 damage.

38 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

12 damage. 18 points, dealing 12 damage. Flanking would be potential of 18 damage. 18 points, for 18 damage potential. Let that sink in.

I mean, really, if you feel like the ideal circumstance outweighs the unpredictability and fragility, please run it, but I don't see it.

EDIT: Because sometimes I argue too much and sound like a jerkface. This is all opinion.

Rune Golems suck on paper. Their attack is too late to use their armor boost, and their special isn't particularly amazing. However, I have a a list where I REALLY like having them, split out, in individual 1x1 units. I have a lot of damage through out the rest of my list, and having small blockers that can move out front, and block makes it very effective. They don't block LOS for your archers, you can move THROUGH them if you have to (since they are a single tray), and their white reform action is very useful at the end of movement to force an opposing charge to collide and turn 45 degrees. This gives you some nice exposed sides for counter-charging.

When they do gang up, and get some flanks, rolling 3 red dice is nothing to scoff at, especially when they're 2-3 threat.

Anyway. I like them in an MSU list. Give it a try.

3 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

They don't block LOS for your archers, you can move THROUGH them if you have to (since they are a single tray), and their white reform action is very useful at the end of movement to force an opposing charge to collide and turn 45 degrees.

Any unit can move over another friendly unit, as long as they don't pass over 1 tray of the stationary unit. It's a handy rule, especially for having your spearstar or cavalry move "through" your screening crossbowmen.

13 hours ago, Glucose98 said:

Anyway. I like them in an MSU list. Give it a try.

What does the list look like? I can see them being decent in that context, but I suspect that they end up being a worse, and more expensive version, of blocking Scions or Lancers. What do you do when you run into a strong skirmish line (e.g. 2-3x 3-tray Crossbows)?

5 minutes ago, Conscientious Objector said:

What does the list look like? I can see them being decent in that context, but I suspect that they end up being a worse, and more expensive version, of blocking Scions or Lancers. What do you do when you run into a strong skirmish line (e.g. 2-3x 3-tray Crossbows)?

Here's my list

Faction: Daqan
Points: 199/200

14 hours ago, backupsidekick said:

12 damage. 18 points, dealing 12 damage. Flanking would be potential of 18 damage. 18 points, for 18 damage potential. Let that sink in.

This is why theyre so expensive.

FFG has a habit of giving a unit something others dont have, in this case threat3 on a single tray. Not even heroes have that as of right now. They then make them considerably more expensive because of the potential that extra bit can give, rather than the reliability of it.
Yes, they can deal the most damage out of any unit for their cost. But half the die is useless (surge/blank), morale side is virtually useless, and they have no rerolls until they break their cost vs potential damage ratio and suddenly become far, far too expensive for what they can do.

Maximum damage is a terrible way to balance a unit. When the die is unreliable as **** they can just flop the entire game and do nothing, which ive had happen multiple times. Seriously the amount of times they rolled doubleblanks or blank-surge is infuriating since i cant do anything about it.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing, @Glucose98 . The big difference between 1 and 2-3 Crossbow lines is that when you take out a little more than a tray of dudes, you then suffer a fairly consistent 15-24 damage back. When fighting against other Initiative 5 Ranged Attack archers, Protected, combined with their above-average threat, adds up very quickly.

20 minutes ago, Conscientious Objector said:

Interesting. Thank you for sharing, @Glucose98 . The big difference between 1 and 2-3 Crossbow lines is that when you take out a little more than a tray of dudes, you then suffer a fairly consistent 15-24 damage back. When fighting against other Initiative 5 Ranged Attack archers, Protected, combined with their above-average threat, adds up very quickly.

Do you have a list for this? I'd love to run it myself to get a sense for it.

32 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Here's my list

Faction: Daqan
Points: 199/200

Kari Wraithstalker
# of Trays: 1 ( 32 points)
- Fortuna"s Dice ( 6 points)
= 38 total unit cost

Lord Hawthorne
# of Trays: 1 ( 34 points)
= 34 total unit cost

Deepwood Archers
# of Trays: 4 ( 30 points)
- Tempered Steel ( 3 points)
= 33 total unit cost

Oathsworn Cavalry
# of Trays: 4 ( 34 points)
- Tempered Steel ( 3 points)
- Raven Tabards ( 2 points)
- Rank Discipline ( 4 points)
= 43 total unit cost

Rune Golems
# of Trays: 1 ( 17 points)
= 17 total unit cost

Rune Golems
# of Trays: 1 ( 17 points)
= 17 total unit cost

Rune Golems
# of Trays: 1 ( 17 points)
= 17 total unit cost

To answer your question about Crossbowmen -- I haven't fought 2-3 trays worth. I did fight a single 3x1 and Kari was able to make short work of them dealing 6 damage (5 figures w/ protected 1) each round. However, if they don't have a ton of cavalry threatening my archers, I'd be moving my Rune Golems upfront to engage them in melee, and I'd be looking to line up my own cavalry to flank charge them.

This is Deathcall Disco's wet dream, you had any issues playing into Waiqar's Mortal Strike/Wound tech? As a faction they have the most options and most reliable ways to ignore defense.

1 minute ago, rebellightworks said:

This is Deathcall Disco's wet dream, you had any issues playing into Waiqar's Mortal Strike/Wound tech? As a faction they have the most options and most reliable ways to ignore defense.

I don't get enough games in, I'd love to try. I currently haven't faced off against a mortal strike list.

I played Disco at world's, and sadly no one had a list similar to this. I was forced to slog through large amounts of trays, something Disco can do, but only at the expense of trading, which gets you a lot of 6-5 wins.

As a heads up to why the wet dream, everything except the archers die to 1-2 Deathcalls. Oathsworn 3-4 if single blue rune. It's pretty easy to get targets inside both firing arcs with Reform/Skill. If your aggressive, I shift/skill. If you hide, I March/skill.

Just now, rebellightworks said:

I played Disco at world's, and sadly no one had a list similar to this. I was forced to slog through large amounts of trays, something Disco can do, but only at the expense of trading, which gets you a lot of 6-5 wins.

As a heads up to why the wet dream, everything except the archers die to 1-2 Deathcalls. Oathsworn 3-4 if single blue rune. It's pretty easy to get targets inside both firing arcs with Reform/Skill. If your aggressive, I shift/skill. If you hide, I March/skill.

I would definitely put Kari up front to fortunas snipe your Deathcaller at initiative 2, so you'd have to be careful. I'd like to see your list in action though, have always liked that buildout.

Someone tried that at World's. I March/skill after her and reminded him how flexible the white skill is. She scampered away after she realized she couldn't hide behind Temple Ruins terrain against a firing arc that large

21 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

Someone tried that at World's. I March/skill after her and reminded him how flexible the white skill is. She scampered away after she realized she couldn't hide behind Temple Ruins terrain against a firing arc that large

Ah yes, she's taking 1-2 wounds to get this off, good point. I'd still probably sacrifice her to do it Depends of course, heh.

Now, we're not taking into account player skill. Kari can still get work done, if the Waiqar player let's her. Honestly, move forward with Hawthorne, he's more expensive but dies just as fast. He makes a juicy sacrifice target.

@Glucose98

Daqan

200/200 points

Heavy Crossbowmen x3 [27]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 36

Heavy Crossbowmen x3 [27]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 36

Spearmen x6 [40]
--Champion: Lance Corporal [6]
--Equipment: Shield Wall [5]
--Heraldry: Eagle-Banner Bearer [4]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
----------Total Unit Cost: 57

Spearmen x4 [30]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
----------Total Unit Cost: 33

Lord Hawthorne x1 [34]
--Unique: Might of Daqan [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 38

Flex point: drop upgrades and unit size on the big Spear unit for a third row of Crossbows.

The list may improve when the Scouts 2 point inspiration/single reroll upgrade comes out, as you very rarely need both rerolls.

16 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

EDIT: Because sometimes I argue too much and sound like a jerkface. This is all opinion.

I know what you've done for the community as a whole so there's no concern here.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

This is why theyre so expensive.

FFG has a habit of giving a unit something others dont have, in this case threat3 on a single tray. Not even heroes have that as of right now. They then make them considerably more expensive because of the potential that extra bit can give, rather than the reliability of it.
Yes, they can deal the most damage out of any unit for their cost. But half the die is useless (surge/blank), morale side is virtually useless, and they have no rerolls until they break their cost vs potential damage ratio and suddenly become far, far too expensive for what they can do.

Maximum damage is a terrible way to balance a unit. When the die is unreliable as **** they can just flop the entire game and do nothing, which ive had happen multiple times. Seriously the amount of times they rolled doubleblanks or blank-surge is infuriating since i cant do anything about it.

My honest thinking is that the golems don't need a boost, players just need to understand they aren't designed to be reliable, they're designed to have potential that isn't available in other units. They are designed to represent the random magic nature of the battle field, since Daqan doesn't have a lot of units that rely on what the runes show. There have been many games where the Daqan player just cast the runes to see what happens to my undead, that means they don't have to rely on the runes for the consistency of their team. I don't think the game should be this way, I think the runes really should have an impact on the game.

I think adding more hp would make the rune golem too survivable considering they have the highest defense of the siege units. I think adding rerolls would be unfair considering they already roll 2 red dice and have 1-2 threat added. I think adding movement options would also make the unit overpowered since it has the potential to move so fast at an early initiative.

Just consider that the rune golems were not intended to represent the steadfastness of the rock they are made of, but reflect the empowering nature of the magic that moves them. They represent that the runes and rolls can be for you and make them an unstoppable force, or they can fizzle. I would gladly pay 2 more per carrion lancer if it meant that I got 1-2 threat added per attack. I'd even give up their surge ability if I could roll 2 red dice instead of 2 blue dice that don't have nearly as many hits as surge's and precision icons (which deal exactly 0 damage).

I don't think they need a fix, that's all I'm saying, they just need to be viewed as the unit in the Daqan force that needs to rely on the runes.

Mediocre and unreliable is synonymous with “bad,” particularly when they’re also expensive. They don’t actually have better best-case output than alternatives due to synergies (Moment of Inspiration, Citadel Weapon Master, Front Line Rune Golem) that are inaccessible to them.

Designing around best-case situations which don’t actually beat out reliable alternatives means that thematic intent is largely irrelevant. People will just play what works, instead.

2 hours ago, Conscientious Objector said:

@Glucose98

Daqan

200/200 points

Heavy Crossbowmen x3 [27]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 36

Heavy Crossbowmen x3 [27]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 36

Spearmen x6 [40]
--Champion: Lance Corporal [6]
--Equipment: Shield Wall [5]
--Heraldry: Eagle-Banner Bearer [4]
--Music: Marching Cornicen [2]
----------Total Unit Cost: 57

Spearmen x4 [30]
--Equipment: Tempered Steel [3]
----------Total Unit Cost: 33

Lord Hawthorne x1 [34]
--Unique: Might of Daqan [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 38

Flex point: drop upgrades and unit size on the big Spear unit for a third row of Crossbows.

The list may improve when the Scouts 2 point inspiration/single reroll upgrade comes out, as you very rarely need both rerolls.

Pretty sure that 2 point upgrade is melee only.