Having only played against Rune Golems, I've been of the opinion that they are very disappointing. I've been able to make fairly short work of them with the Death Caller and Carrion Lancers dishing out mortal strikes.

But last night I played my first 200 point game as Daqans and had really amazing success with them. I built a list purely from my curiosity about Rune Golems and the Uncontrolled Geomancer, rather than for what I thought would be competitive play. I'll write a summary of the battle below. But here's what I think the golems had going for them:

• Being able to march and rally with a white modifier was awesome, allowing them to build up a ton of inspiration tokens in the first two rounds when they were moving slowly, making these slow turns a surprisingly good use of their time. With Hawthorne they were able to build up 3 each by the time they got to combat which allowed them to ready their Master Crafted Weapons in subsequent rounds. Although they were never blighted, I also could have used the inspiration for that if I had needed.
• While they can't charge on a turn, this wasn't that important against the unmaneuverable Waiqar. Maybe against other armies or even different Waiqar units this would play out differently, but then again my army had a pretty good mix of speed and ranged damage in it, even with almost half my army tied up in Golems.
• By having multiple golem units, I was able to have overlapping charge threat zones, making their lack of a turning charge less of a liability.
• Their speed is weirdly complementary with Hawthorne. While he burns a turn psyching everyone up with inspiration, he can easily catch up with their plodding advance later in the game.
• The two tray units are complimentary to the Uncontrolled Geomancer. Two trays of golems suffer no damage from the geomancer making them the perfect protection for the relatively weak spearman unit that still has to get up in the enemy's face. And with big units being all the rage these days, the geomancer is a surprisingly useful dude.
• Two trays in 1 wide, 2 deep formation with Tempered Steel is awesome! You can pretty much bet on doing 6 damage each turn, and I did 9 damage on two of my attacks with these guys. The re-roll plus tempered steel makes their attacks reliable while the crazy amount of inspiration they can build up allows them to keep their steel freshly readied.

Am I totally sold? No. I think I had some pretty good luck with 4 runes showing up at a key moment. My opponent and I talked afterward about both building a more optimized list for him and making better use of terrain to mess with the golem's movement. My opponent was also short on mortal strikes in his army. Inadvertently, I had put together a pretty effective army to support the golems, so much of the credit goes to the other units as well. But still, based on my experience facing these guys, they way outperformed my expectations.

Anyway, here's a brief battle summary. My list was:

• Hawthorne + 2 upgrades that never got used in the game
• 4 Trays Spearmen with Uncontrolled Geomancer
• 2 Golems with Tempered Steel
• 2 Golems with Tempered Steel
• 1 Golem
• 2 Trays Oathsworn with Rank Discipline
• 2 Trays Oathsworn with Rank Discipline and Master Crafted Weapons

My opponent's list was Ardus, Maro, 2x 2 Tray Archers with Combat Ingenuity, 9 trays of reanimates with Frontline Lancer

I think my opponent's attention was divided mainly between the Oathsworn running down his archers, the Uncontrolled Geomancer spearmen that had the potential to wreak havoc on his big block, and Hawthorne who was bee-lining for the gap between a group of archers and the reanimates that exposed Maro's flank. This allowed my golems to move up the board unmolested. The two units of two made straight for the front of his reanimates, in a 1 wide, 2 deep formation.

A pretty lucky rune cast on Turn 3 came up with 4 red and 2 blue runes, allowing them to make long, late turn charges avoiding strikes back from the reanimates. The Uncontrolled Geomancer wiped out 9 reanimates for a start on this turn (they were already down a couple from the battle between the geomancer and Maro's raising trays and some good green runes), and the golems followed it up by doing 9 from the first unit, and then 6 wounds from the second... and that was even though I forgot my re-rolls from having the additional rank.

In Turn 4, Ardus had snuck around the back of one of the units and done a single wound, which the golems returned with 2 wounds, and then the lone rune golem had counter-snuck around Ardus' flank and done him in. The other unit of golems finished off the last of the reanimates, leaving only the frontline lancer.

Elsewhere, the spearmen managed to finish off a unit of archers and oathsworn got the other one. Hawthorne got his flank charge on Maro and did a couple of wounds, setting Maro up to be charged in the front by spearmen and the opposite flank by oathsworn the following turn. With only Maro and a front line lancer left on the board, both with a high certainty of death in the following turn, and facing pretty much my entire army (I had taken some casualties but lost no units) we called the game at the end of turn 4.

2 hours ago, Elliphino said:

Having only played against Rune Golems, I've been of the opinion that they are very disappointing. I've been able to make fairly short work of them with the Death Caller and Carrion Lancers dishing out mortal strikes.

But last night I played my first 200 point game as Daqans and had really amazing success with them. I built a list purely from my curiosity about Rune Golems and the Uncontrolled Geomancer, rather than for what I thought would be competitive play. I'll write a summary of the battle below. But here's what I think the golems had going for them:

• Being able to march and rally with a white modifier was awesome, allowing them to build up a ton of inspiration tokens in the first two rounds when they were moving slowly, making these slow turns a surprisingly good use of their time. With Hawthorne they were able to build up 3 each by the time they got to combat which allowed them to ready their Master Crafted Weapons in subsequent rounds. Although they were never blighted, I also could have used the inspiration for that if I had needed.
• While they can't charge on a turn, this wasn't that important against the unmaneuverable Waiqar. Maybe against other armies or even different Waiqar units this would play out differently, but then again my army had a pretty good mix of speed and ranged damage in it, even with almost half my army tied up in Golems.
• By having multiple golem units, I was able to have overlapping charge threat zones, making their lack of a turning charge less of a liability.
• Their speed is weirdly complementary with Hawthorne. While he burns a turn psyching everyone up with inspiration, he can easily catch up with their plodding advance later in the game.
• The two tray units are complimentary to the Uncontrolled Geomancer. Two trays of golems suffer no damage from the geomancer making them the perfect protection for the relatively weak spearman unit that still has to get up in the enemy's face. And with big units being all the rage these days, the geomancer is a surprisingly useful dude.
• Two trays in 1 wide, 2 deep formation with Tempered Steel is awesome! You can pretty much bet on doing 6 damage each turn, and I did 9 damage on two of my attacks with these guys. The re-roll plus tempered steel makes their attacks reliable while the crazy amount of inspiration they can build up allows them to keep their steel freshly readied.

Am I totally sold? No. I think I had some pretty good luck with 4 runes showing up at a key moment. My opponent and I talked afterward about both building a more optimized list for him and making better use of terrain to mess with the golem's movement. My opponent was also short on mortal strikes in his army. Inadvertently, I had put together a pretty effective army to support the golems, so much of the credit goes to the other units as well. But still, based on my experience facing these guys, they way outperformed my expectations.

Anyway, here's a brief battle summary. My list was:

• Hawthorne + 2 upgrades that never got used in the game
• 4 Trays Spearmen with Uncontrolled Geomancer
• 2 Golems with Tempered Steel
• 2 Golems with Tempered Steel
• 1 Golem
• 2 Trays Oathsworn with Rank Discipline
• 2 Trays Oathsworn with Rank Discipline and Master Crafted Weapons

My opponent's list was Ardus, Maro, 2x 2 Tray Archers with Combat Ingenuity, 9 trays of reanimates with Frontline Lancer

I think my opponent's attention was divided mainly between the Oathsworn running down his archers, the Uncontrolled Geomancer spearmen that had the potential to wreak havoc on his big block, and Hawthorne who was bee-lining for the gap between a group of archers and the reanimates that exposed Maro's flank. This allowed my golems to move up the board unmolested. The two units of two made straight for the front of his reanimates, in a 1 wide, 2 deep formation.

A pretty lucky rune cast on Turn 3 came up with 4 red and 2 blue runes, allowing them to make long, late turn charges avoiding strikes back from the reanimates. The Uncontrolled Geomancer wiped out 9 reanimates for a start on this turn (they were already down a couple from the battle between the geomancer and Maro's raising trays and some good green runes), and the golems followed it up by doing 9 from the first unit, and then 6 wounds from the second... and that was even though I forgot my re-rolls from having the additional rank.

In Turn 4, Ardus had snuck around the back of one of the units and done a single wound, which the golems returned with 2 wounds, and then the lone rune golem had counter-snuck around Ardus' flank and done him in. The other unit of golems finished off the last of the reanimates, leaving only the frontline lancer.

Elsewhere, the spearmen managed to finish off a unit of archers and oathsworn got the other one. Hawthorne got his flank charge on Maro and did a couple of wounds, setting Maro up to be charged in the front by spearmen and the opposite flank by oathsworn the following turn. With only Maro and a front line lancer left on the board, both with a high certainty of death in the following turn, and facing pretty much my entire army (I had taken some casualties but lost no units) we called the game at the end of turn 4.

Oh boy... you just opened a can of worms my friend haha. We have been discussing rune golems worth for some time now :). Glad to hear you had success with them.

The argument that they are sub par is intimately linked to their low number of wounds and their very high pts cost.

A 4x4 of Oathsworn Cavalry is only 3 points more than a 2-tray of RG with Tempered Steel, has double the wounds, rolls more dice with only slightly less potential threat and has a better dial in general.

For the price of those two units you could have taken a 6 block of spearmen with Lance Corporal, Shield Wall, Raven Tabards and Aggressive Cornicen with pts left over, which is (to me) a vastly more flexible and threatening unit.

Most importantly, neither of the above units require Hawthorne to be effective.

The line is a fine one. If RGs had even one more wound standard or cost just a few fewer pts at each level they wouldn't be in the boat they're in.

I wouldn't complain about another wound on the Rune Golems to make them a better comparative value... but they did just fine in my comprehensive and deep scientific trials of their performance over the course of one entire game

Seriously though...

@Tvayumat , what you're saying is that for 3 points more I could have one, slightly better unit.

The dials may be better for movement purposes, but the ability to march then reform is not to be sniffed at... These guys can potentially do a 4 march K-Turn. The other big dial advantage is being able to pair inspiration with any action, allowing you to refresh cards and build up an inspiration bank which in my blighted neighborhood is a big advantage.

The other thing that neither of your suggested alternative units can do is escort an Uncontrolled Geomancer. All well and good if you don't plan to play with one, but since I did, I would have either killed one tray of my own oathsworn, or a tray and a half of my spearmen. Local metas will vary, but in my neck of the woods people really like big units, so the uncontrolled geomancer is a really good value and the Rune Golems made a great escort.

1 hour ago, Elliphino said:

The dials may be better for movement purposes, but the ability to march then reform is not to be sniffed at... These guys can potentially do a 4 march K-Turn. The other big dial advantage is being able to pair inspiration with any action, allowing you to refresh cards and build up an inspiration bank which in my blighted neighborhood is a big advantage.

The key word being potentially. They can *potentially* do a 4 march turn on the dime.

You know what they can never, ever do? A three bank, or literally any bank maneuver (one of the best charging templates in the game)."

Their ability to rally off blight isn't really that much of a boon, either. They attack at Init 5, so half the game Reanimate Archers will be firing before they melee, even in the wake of a Rally action the previous turn.

Nothing about their dial is impressive, IMO.

1 hour ago, Elliphino said:

The other thing that neither of your suggested alternative units can do is escort an Uncontrolled Geomancer. All well and good if you don't plan to play with one, but since I did, I would have either killed one tray of my own oathsworn, or a tray and a half of my spearmen. Local metas will vary, but in my neck of the woods people really like big units, so the uncontrolled geomancer is a really good value and the Rune Golems made a great escort.

An extremely narrow niche to fit into, that does nothing for the Golem's overall quality considering how niche the Geomancer is himself. Necromancer kinda sucks and only works with one niche build too (And even then, only sometimes, and even then, it usually makes no difference), so it's not like this is a Daqan exclusive issue.

Under ideal circumstances (two 9-tray targets in range) you'll deal 18 damage. If the runes are against you, you'll do no damage at all. You're essentially required to run a Greyhaven Channeler to capitalize on the ability, and you'd also be silly to run RGs without a Channeler, which means buying another Spear unit as a tax anyway.

So, to use this combo, before buying ANY Rune Golems, we're spending 72 points across two units of spearmen whose only upgrades are their mage figure upgrades. You know what only costs 2 pts more than that? 9-tray Spearstar with FL Rune Golem and Weapon Master, and that hits for 20+ damage a LOT more often and a LOT more reliably than even the most ideally placed and mathematically lucky Uncontrolled Geomancer.

Comparatively speaking, Carrion Lancers, Spined Threshers and even Aymhelin Scions ALL have better costs for their utility, more utility in general, and serve well as figure upgrades.

Golems are expensive, alright at best on the field, and best suited to backing up spearmen for that ridiculous Brutal ability.

I think it's important to clarify something, here. Nobody is claiming that Rune Golems cannot be run. Nobody is claiming they are incapable of performing in any sense. Nobody is saying that you will lose automatically if you put down an RG unit.

What they are is a poor investment when compared to similarly priced options. They're going to work some games, sure, but they'll never return on their investment as well or as reliably as other Daqan units in their current state.

I'll say it again here, the perfect 'fix' is a non unique rune golem only equipment card that gives them protected=natural runes.

16 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I'll say it again here, the perfect 'fix' is a non unique rune golem only equipment card that gives them protected=natural runes.

Don't know if I said it before, but I really do like this idea.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

Don't know if I said it before, but I really do like this idea.

I mentioned it in the other golem thread but it was lost in rage posts ?

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

I'll say it again here, the perfect 'fix' is a non unique rune golem only equipment card that gives them protected=natural runes.

While cool and I like the idea, I still think they deserve that extra wound threshold.

FFG has shown a willingness to address imbalance issues like this with things like zero or even negative cost upgrades. I hold out hope for the four armed brutes to take their rightful mantle as the ultimate pairing for a hard place.

To me big blocks of Rune Golems just aren't worth it for all the reasons above.

I think running them like Scions where you kick them out as skirmishers for blocking purposes can make sense, the down side is they probably won't get much done unless the dice are reasonably kind multiplied by the ruins.

Wow, I step away for a day and a half aa the thread takes on a life of its own. But that's what the internet is for!

On 12/2/2017 at 1:02 PM, Tvayumat said:

Golems are expensive, alright at best on the field...

I think it's important to clarify something, here. Nobody is claiming that Rune Golems cannot be run. Nobody is claiming they are incapable of performing in any sense. Nobody is saying that you will lose automatically if you put down an RG unit.

This is actually all I'm trying to say.

1 hour ago, Elliphino said:

Wow, I step away for a day and a half aa the thread takes on a life of its own. But that's what the internet is for!

This is actually all I'm trying to say.

My objection to the “they’re not amazing, just OK” camp is that they’re mediocre, and at once inflexible and unreliable in exactly the way you don’t want them to be.

They're inflexible in that they have a handful of very defined movement and attack patterns: March [Red] and Initiative 4 and March 2 at Initiaitive 8. At the start of the command phase, your opponent knows exactly what movements you can make with them, making them comparatively easy to play around.

On the other hand, you can’t rely on their movement patterns for the next turn. This makes proper positioning extremely difficult. Sometimes you win the crapshoot and they sprint across the field exactly as you want. Sometimes your 30+ point unit gets charged (which means getting hit twice before they get to retaliate) because you didn’t get the runes you wanted.

Strong options are easy to apply (Obs. Gauntlet auto-applies on attack and has a guaranteed effect) and have limited counterplay (eliminate a fast, durable unit before it reaches melee). Weak options are difficult to apply (Rune reliant movement, inflexible movement patterns, late attack initiative), have multiple failure points (blight, inconsistency of delivery, limited rerolls, susceptible to Defense, vulnerability to Defense-ignoring effects) and have broad counterplay (apply failure points above, bog down with chaff units, avoid combat).

Golems are a weak option.

Alright: Rune Golems

1. Use them as bodyguards for Kari. Kari can deal ranged damage at initiative 2. Anything trying to attack Kari will get hit by her ranged attack and 2 Rune Golems that will have the opportunity to flank. If your opponent places their archers in range to attack the Rune Golems and Kari, then that means they will be wide open to an attack from Oathsworn. If they have a blocker, such as Ardus or a Carrion Lancer, then Kari will get a chance to pick them off, while the Rune Golems flank. If you get attacked by Maro, then Maro isn't resurrecting units, and Kari can deal a ton of damage since his defense is only 2, and he will be focusing on the Rune Golems (or getting hit by 2 closing Rune Golems)

2. Use Rune golems along side Oathsworn so whichever unit gets hit, the other can flank. A flanking Rune Golem can deal devastating damage.

3. Use Rune Golems in a unit of spearmen to increase their threat by the value of an additional tray, or two. Threat 5 spearmen is powerful, with rerolls.

You know what sucks, is dumping 37+ points into Ardus that gets killed by Kari, or Lord Hawthorne that has a faster melee initiative, increases his defense during attack, carries shield of Margath, basically destroying Ardus with his own attacks.

How about, the Rune Golems get an upgrade card that removes Brutal (to fall in line with the Carrion Lancers) and gains 1 HP? 4 defense, 3 HP, 2 red dice, no rerolls, no brutal? That's the trade off that the Rune Golems get. They do have to rely on the the runes to be powerful, but when they are utilized and the runes fall right, they can be incredibly powerful. Most of the arguments I've heard on here is to keep the incredibly powerful potential, but remove the luck surrounding them. That would be great, and all players would love that. I would love a carrion lancer that has brutal, or precise. I'd love an Ardus with 4 defense naturally. But as an undead player that has seen how hard these rune golems can hit, and when the runes fall right so they can charge 4 spaces at initiative 4, holy cow! When Ardus is trying to close the gap to kill a hero or something, and instead the runes fall right so the rune golems are charging faster and further than he can move, and two golems flank him and kill him without an attack, I can assure you that the Rune Golems are balanced. Luck is the balancing measure they have used to make this brute reasonable. All of the units that can kill the Rune Golems swiftly are also more expensive, or require synergies to work. If you complain that two units working together can kill off a single unit in one turn and that's not fair, or that a unit that costs nearly 3 times as much as a rune golem can kill a rune golem easily, where's the logic there?

@backupsidekick A few things:

• The main complaint is that Golems perform poorly (reliability is so critical in a maneuvering game) compared to other options in-faction. Also, this discussion is centered around Golems as units, not upgrades (I think everyone agrees the upgrades are just fine - even the Support Golem has a great ability, it's just hard to pass up the Front Line)
• In my area, Ardus is considered a pretty poor value for points. Comparing him to other heroes, he CLEARLY pays a pretty steep premium for his army building ability and surge-borrowing ability. FFG had to price him conservatively to account for future units, so he'll forever be a lot of vulnerable points in one basket. I would advocate for base cost more like 32-34 points.
• I would LOVE that Golem upgrade. The idea of them doing massive damage is appealing, but from a gameplay perspective I'm way more interested in using them defensively as blockers, which means stunning and increasing Defense anyway - I've found myself FREQUENTLY faced with this choice: stun and dial Defense, probably survive the turn, or go for the attack and probably die before you get a chance to use it. Focusing their role would be a huge improvement in my mind.

@backupsidekick In which context do Rune Golems outperform a Spear unit configured for the same purpose?

Also, are you seriously suggesting that Rune Golems should pay for an upgrade that reduces their hitting power, regardless of its benefits? Carrion lancers are cheaper at baseline, have more dice, move faster, have higher base durability, have out of combat utility, and can take training for Rank Discipline based rerolls.

Golems already don’t have a good place in Daqan. Why pay more for a worse Carrion Lancer?

16 minutes ago, Conscientious Objector said:

@backupsidekick In which context do Rune Golems outperform a Spear unit configured for the same purpose?

Golems already don’t have a good place in Daqan. Why pay more for a worse Carrion Lancer?

Blocking for an Uncontrolled Geomancer.

They're the best at that!

We also now have the Spined Thresher for comparison.

If the Carrion Lancer didn't convince you, the Thresher will once you face him a few times.

Same dice pool, one point more expensive, and WAY more dangerous simply because his configuration of defense/wounds, built in reroll and overall dial are significantly better.

11 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

We also now have the Spined Thresher for comparison.

If the Carrion Lancer didn't convince you, the Thresher will once you face him a few times.

Same dice pool, one point more expensive, and WAY more dangerous simply because his configuration of defense/wounds, built in reroll and overall dial are significantly better.

Also, Spined Threshers have passive utility in addition to their actions, with just a positioning requirement. Heck, they even have a Initiative 4 attack with a damage and panic modifier.

@Elliphino You got me there. I’ll try them if I ever feel that the Unstable Geomancer is worth playing. With Daqan’s current hitting power, I think I’ll leave the self-harm to the Uthuk.

Comparing the Rune Golems to other armies' siege units, they're the clear losers. So that's a pretty good argument for fixing the golems.

On the other hand, Daqan doesn't have access to the other siege units, so that's not a logical argument for not taking them... There's certainly other arguments for not taking them though.

Just now, Elliphino said:

Comparing the Rune Golems to other armies' siege units, they're the clear losers. So that's a pretty good argument for fixing the golems.

On the other hand, Daqan doesn't have access to the other siege units, so that's not a logical argument for not taking them... There's certainly other arguments for not taking them though.

Spearmen and Oathsworn are the strongest argument for not taking them.

They do everything the RGs do, better.

I'll give that they're better at absorbing damage from one very specific upgrade, but given how dubiously useful that upgrade is and how many more components you need to buy to make it reliable... I maintain that they need some love.

2 hours ago, Conscientious Objector said:

@backupsidekick In which context do Rune Golems outperform a Spear unit configured for the same purpose?

Also, are you seriously suggesting that Rune Golems should pay for an upgrade that reduces their hitting power, regardless of its benefits? Carrion lancers are cheaper at baseline, have more dice, move faster, have higher base durability, have out of combat utility, and can take training for Rank Discipline based rerolls.

Golems already don’t have a good place in Daqan. Why pay more for a worse Carrion Lancer?

1. I didn't say that Rune Golems out perform a spear unit configured for the same purpose, but cost wise, that would be a 2x1 of spearmen, hitting with a red blue, threat of 2 so yes cost wise the Rune Golem is still better.

2. The carrion lancers are 2 points cheaper, but let's look at your assertions here one by one:

a. cheaper, yes, but 2 points. As stated above, Waiqar as a whole has units that are more expensive than Daqan units, including most importantly their heroes.

b. Have more dice: yes, HOWEVER the purpose of dice is dealing damage and with a threat between 2 and 3, Rune golems effectively are rolling the equivalent of 4 or 6 dice. Point goes to Rune Golems by a long shot, double when the runes are in their favor.

c. Do they move faster? Rune golems can move 4 spaces on initiative 4, so no. Rune Golems have a white modifier for reform, whereas carrion lancers have a green that matches no other movement. So fastest potential goes to Rune Golem and maneuverability goes to Rune Golem.

d. Higher base durability: this is debatable. Rune golems can take 8 hits before dying, carrion lancers can take 9, so by that theory yes, but when you take into account how likely to get 3 or 4 hits, it's more likely to wound a carrion lancer than it is to wound a rune golem. 6 hits is still 1 wound to a rune golem, but it's 2 to a carrion lancer. You pair a carrion lancer up to a rune golem and the carrion lancer will have a significantly harder time breaking the armor of the rune golem. A single tray unit has the potential to wound a carrion lancer, and I've seen it done, but a single tray unit up against a rune golem can ONLY wound it, if it is rolling 2 red dice, which Waiqar doesn't have. Survivability over all options goes to rune golem.

e. Have out of combat utility: must be talking about the skill that MOST good Daqan players will never let you use. The skill that is unusable when engaged, or if the target is engaged. Rune Golems have a skill they can use while in combat, so at best that offsets each other.

f. Take training for rank discipline: That's an additional 4 points which means the carrion lancer is now 2 points more expensive than the rune golems which apparently is something to be upset over. 2 golems can take the wind rune, or the fire rune, which then makes the rune golems super mobile, or able to perform ranged attacks that the carrion lancer can't do until they have a tray of 4 units.

So, Carrion Lancer is cheaper by 2 points, but the rune golem, for 2 points more, maneuvers faster and more reliably since you can reform at the end of ANY movement, deals more damage with better dice, and can take more hits before suffering wounds and has nearly the same number of total hits until death. Just because the Daqan units are so good that the rune golems don't look as good, doesn't mean they are bad. I wouldn't bring Carrion Lancers either except that Ardus needs them to be useful, the archers need them to put blight to good use, and except for death knights everything else moves incredibly slow. I removed the carrion lancers to make room for my death knights. Does that mean they need a buff too now?

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

c. Do they move faster? Rune golems can move 4 spaces on initiative 4, so no. Rune Golems have a white modifier for reform, whereas carrion lancers have a green that matches no other movement. So fastest potential goes to Rune Golem and maneuverability goes to Rune Golem.

*CAN* move faster. CAN.

Often do not. Unreliable. Maneuverability does NOT go to Rune Golems, and I base this assertion on extensive experience outmaneuvering them with Reanimates, of all things.

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

Have more dice: yes, HOWEVER the purpose of dice is dealing damage and with a threat between 2 and 3, Rune golems effectively are rolling the equivalent of 4 or 6 dice. Point goes to Rune Golems by a long shot, double when the runes are in their favor.

There we have it again. When the runes are in their favor.

You're also leaving out a pretty important detail, being that re-rolls are more expensive and difficult to acquire for RGs than they are for Oathsworn. Re-rolls are at least as valuable if not more valuable than threat. All the threat in the world won't help you when your roll blanks out. Three dice is also more resistant to single blight via Support CL.

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

d. Higher base durability: this is debatable. Rune golems can take 8 hits before dying, carrion lancers can take 9, so by that theory yes, but when you take into account how likely to get 3 or 4 hits, it's more likely to wound a carrion lancer than it is to wound a rune golem. 6 hits is still 1 wound to a rune golem, but it's 2 to a carrion lancer. You pair a carrion lancer up to a rune golem and the carrion lancer will have a significantly harder time breaking the armor of the rune golem. A single tray unit has the potential to wound a carrion lancer, and I've seen it done, but a single tray unit up against a rune golem can ONLY wound it, if it is rolling 2 red dice, which Waiqar doesn't have. Survivability over all options goes to rune golem.

It's not debatable. Due to average damage levels in the game, 3/3 is significantly more durable than 4/2, both to raw damage and to direct wounding.

4 damage is extremely common. 4 damage will wound either figure. 8 damage is the next most common hit. 8 damage will kill an RG, it will not kill a CL.

Carrion Lancers also don't *have* to "break the armor" of a Rune Golem, because if the RG has a blight (very easy to give through a variety of mechanisms including the Lancer itself) then all the CL needs is two surges to make it go pop. Across two blue dice, that's all but guaranteed.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this strikes me as mostly theory and not a lot of practice.

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

e. Have out of combat utility: must be talking about the skill that MOST good Daqan players will never let you use. The skill that is unusable when engaged, or if the target is engaged. Rune Golems have a skill they can use while in combat, so at best that offsets each other.

So you never, EVER have unengaged units at range 5 of a Carrion Lancer? Impressive. You must be using some units and dials I haven't seen. I blight Daqan all the time with lone CLs to soften up the engagement round.

You're also mistaken about when it can be used. It can be used while engaged, just not against the engaged target. So long as the CL unit is wide enough to have LOS, you can still throw a blight to a backfield unit.

Rune Golems can... stall for a turn, AFTER they've engaged. Maybe this is dominant where you are, but I've never seen it make up for the pts sink.

Deathcaller/Support CL/Simultaneous Orders can literally kill a golem in one shot. (often does)

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

f. Take training for rank discipline: That's an additional 4 points which means the carrion lancer is now 2 points more expensive than the rune golems which apparently is something to be upset over. 2 golems can take the wind rune, or the fire rune, which then makes the rune golems super mobile, or able to perform ranged attacks that the carrion lancer can't do until they have a tray of 4 units.

Who is taking Rank Discipline on Carrion Lancers? We're talking about MCW + CI for the most part, which makes them devastating and worth losing the re-roll for.

Also, let's see...

35 pts for two Rune Golems with Fire Rune, or 34 pts for 3x1 Crossbowmen with Tempered Steel AND Rank Discipline?

One of these units has a decent damage ceiling (Assuming ideal circumstances which cannot be predicted) with a much lower average, no rerolls, and possibly get blanked on runes, doing nothing.

The other has a similar damage ceiling with MUCH better averages, and is utterly unaffected by runes with a better dial, and costs 1 pt less.

I'm afraid I'm just not seeing it.

36 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

So, Carrion Lancer is cheaper by 2 points, but the rune golem, for 2 points more, maneuvers faster and more reliably since you can reform at the end of ANY movement, deals more damage with better dice, and can take more hits before suffering wounds and has nearly the same number of total hits until death.

You're going to need to provide some citations.

I've played a lot of Runewars, and in practice, these statements are simply untrue.

Rune Golems are slow, unreliable, extremely predictable, brittle, and prone to blanking out their rolls.