5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Thweek with a bid beats PTL/AS Kylo.

I'm not sure you can get the 6 damage in in a 75 minute game, which is pretty hilarious really

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Handing out a Blind or PS0 to PS8 Primary Arc ship that is never going to get to shoot anyway.....thats going to be a thing.

But let's not forget, these cards go under the shields.

Which is why, as I've said before, nailing Kylo's wingmate and flying him/her in a way that compliments everything we're discussing itt will separate the good from the bad pilots.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'm not sure you can get the 6 damage in in a 75 minute game, which is pretty hilarious really

If Thweek can't put 6 into Kylo, Kylo probably can't put 5 into Thweek, during which the 68 points of non-Thweek abuse the 50ish points of non-Kylo. Yes, this is an absurd oversimplification.

12 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If Thweek can't put 6 into Kylo, Kylo probably can't put 5 into Thweek, during which the 68 points of non-Thweek abuse the 50ish points of non-Kylo. Yes, this is an absurd oversimplification.

Haha, I thought you were talking about some silly I'LL SHOW YOU THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE 1V1 ME BRO style situation. Yeah, when kylo is out PS'd, he gets shot. Thankfully he's about as tanky (if not a little more) than an x7 defender, so it's not super scary, just standard scary.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Haha, I thought you were talking about some silly I'LL SHOW YOU THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE 1V1 ME BRO style situation. Yeah, when kylo is out PS'd, he gets shot. Thankfully he's about as tanky (if not a little more) than an x7 defender, so it's not super scary, just standard scary.

Is he as tanky as an X/7 though?

What makes X/7’s so tanky is that when they take those Range 1-2 shots on them, which will happen because they are out PS’d, they have the Evade token. Those Range 1-2 shots will happen versus Kylo if he’s out PS’d and he won’t have the Evade (aka autothrusters) to save him like the X/7’s do every turn.

It would be interesting to to see if @MajorJuggler has run some comparisons between the jousting value between those two ships.

8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Thankfully he's about as tanky (if not a little more) than an x7 defender, so it's not super scary, just standard scary.

How?

Kylo is exactly as tanky as a Defender without x7: 3 greens, a focus, 6 health. Actually his 4 hull are slightly worse.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

How?

Kylo is exactly as tanky as a Defender without x7: 3 greens, a focus, 6 health. Actually his 4 hull are slightly worse.

He's a bit tankier than a non-x7 defender because of autothrusters for turrets and range 3 shots. Less tanky than the free evade from x7 though, unless you're taking multiple shots per round modified by autothrusters.

8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Is he as tanky as an X/7 though?

What makes X/7’s so tanky is that when they take those Range 1-2 shots on them, which will happen because they are out PS’d, they have the Evade token. Those Range 1-2 shots will happen versus Kylo if he’s out PS’d and he won’t have the Evade (aka autothrusters) to save him like the X/7’s do every turn.

Yeah, I think you're right. Autothrusters are a broad defense against lots of long-range, or out of arc attacks. Focus/Evade is what lets you shrug off a big 4 hit with some scratched paint. Kylo might be as tanky as a Defender, but it's a very different kind of tanky.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

He's a bit tankier than a non-x7 defender because of autothrusters for turrets and range 3 shots. Less tanky than the free evade from x7 though, unless you're taking multiple shots per round modified by autothrusters.

The only thing that Kylo has going for him over the X7 (other than more maneuverability) is that he can afford one more whiff per game, because of the second sentence of the title. Other than that, I agree, he's worse.

I need to try a Daredevil Kylo for the lulz.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

He's a bit tankier than a non-x7 defender because of autothrusters for turrets and range 3 shots. Less tanky than the free evade from x7 though, unless you're taking multiple shots per round modified by autothrusters.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I think you're right. Autothrusters are a broad defense agaisnt lots of long-range, or out of arc attacks. Focus/Evade is what lets you shrug off a big 4 hit with some scratched paint. Kylo might be as Tammy as a Defender, but it's a very different kind of tanky.

Derp, you two are right of course. I was reading the "1v1 me bro" as range 1, which makes no sense.

But it's a clear hierarchy from Focus < Focus+AT < Focus+Evade < Focus+Evade+AT

With the caveat that you need to trigger AT of course.
Which is where the bad (or extremely average) offense of Kylo comes into play again, IMO - he won't do much himself if at range 3.
He has no problem against TLT out of arc though, so that's good I guess? Just 30% to get 1+ damage. If that's the baseline then Kylo is crap

Alright, I didn't bother to read EVERYTHING in this thread up until now and not sure if this was mentioned, BUT...

...Intel Agent carrier partnered with Kylo Ren OR Blackout with PTL/AdvSensors can help mitigate that "Oh it's a higher PS so who cares." Yes there's likely re-positioning at those higher PS ships, but at least knowing the dial can really help you utilize that PTL/AdvSensors combo with that dial. Even use the Silencer to block that move you inteled is helpful since it can basically be anywhere.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

Alright, I didn't bother to read EVERYTHING in this thread up until now and not sure if this was mentioned, BUT...

...Intel Agent carrier partnered with Kylo Ren OR Blackout with PTL/AdvSensors can help mitigate that "Oh it's a higher PS so who cares." Yes there's likely re-positioning at those higher PS ships, but at least knowing the dial can really help you utilize that PTL/AdvSensors combo with that dial. Even use the Silencer to block that move you inteled is helpful since it can basically be anywhere.

You can fit a PTL/Adv Sensors Blackout, Omega Leader, and Major Stridan with Intel Agent and Courier Droid in a list to make a First Order Mynock Special type List.

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But it's a clear hierarchy from Focus < Focus+AT < Focus+Evade < Focus+Evade+AT

I could not possible disagree more with this statement - I would rather have AT than any token, followed by evade, followed by focus. Which I guess works out to
Focus < Focus + Evade < AT < anything + AT.

The simple reason being that AT is reusable. It's always worth it to barrel roll to range 3 over taking a focus, etc. Quad TLT vs defenders is an actual game. If you took away x7 and gave those defenders autothrusters, it would not be.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I could not possible disagree more with this statement - I would rather have AT than any token, followed by evade, followed by focus. Which I guess works out to
Focus < Focus + Evade < AT < anything + AT.

The simple reason being that AT is reusable. It's always worth it to barrel roll to range 3 over taking a focus, etc. Quad TLT vs defenders is an actual game. If you took away x7 and gave those defenders autothrusters, it would not be.

Evade token is better if you’re lower Pilot Skill. Autothrusters is better if you’re higher Pilot Skilled. Autothrusters is never going to trigger if you’re facing PS10/11 ships that will come out to play because of Kylo.

8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I could not possible disagree more with this statement - I would rather have AT than any token, followed by evade, followed by focus. Which I guess works out to
Focus < Focus + Evade < AT < anything + AT.

The simple reason being that AT is reusable. It's always worth it to barrel roll to range 3 over taking a focus, etc. Quad TLT vs defenders is an actual game. If you took away x7 and gave those defenders autothrusters, it would not be.

Quad TLTs are the best case scenario for ATs, but I do agree ATs are better than an Evade more often than not.

All of these make my eyes hurt.
Its like a christmas tree filled with lights and each light is some place Kylo can be.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I could not possible disagree more with this statement - I would rather have AT than any token, followed by evade, followed by focus. Which I guess works out to
Focus < Focus + Evade < AT < anything + AT.

I did not look at it exhaustively, but evade is exactly the same against a 2 or 3dice focus+TL attack.
Evade is strictly better against one 4dice focus+TL attack. AT triggers against every attack, of course.

The problem to look at it more in-depth is that I want to see all 8 combinations (nothing, only AT, focus, evade, focus+evade, AT+focus, AT+evade, AT+focus+evade), and against no focus, focus, and focus+TL. That's quickly adding up. I didn't take a sample yet where AT was just better.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I did not look at it exhaustively, but evade is exactly the same against a 2 or 3dice focus+TL attack.
Evade is strictly better against one 4dice focus+TL attack. AT triggers against every attack, of course.

The problem to look at it more in-depth is that I want to see all 8 combinations (nothing, only AT, focus, evade, focus+evade, AT+focus, AT+evade, AT+focus+evade), and against no focus, focus, and focus+TL. That's quickly adding up. I didn't take a sample yet where AT was just better.

I can save you the math - evade is always strictly better than autothrusters against a single attack. That's not the point though - evade and reinforce are mathematically equal against a single attack as well.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I can save you the math - evade is always strictly better than autothrusters against a single attack. That's not the point though - evade and reinforce are mathematically equal against a single attack as well.

I thought it was about a 1v1 situation? JUUUDGE!

Kylo's obvious weakness is his defense cap at 3 Evades. Particularly against secondary weapons. Missiles, HLC, Rey, Phantoms, etc...anything that throws 4+ attack dice will damage him. Contrast that with an x7 who can spend all tokens to fully dodge the attack a decent amount of the time. High PS alpha strike will definitely be able to chew through him.

Which is basically to say you can't play him like old school Soontir. Oh I'm at range 3 and you're shooting a missile at me? Focus Evade Autothrusters Palpatine, try again please. Kylo actually just can't be in arc or range of anything that throws 4+ attack dice, and that actually makes him more difficult to fly.

3 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Kylo's obvious weakness is his defense cap at 3 Evades. Particularly against secondary weapons. Missiles, HLC, Rey, Phantoms, etc...anything that throws 4+ attack dice will damage him. Contrast that with an x7 who can spend all tokens to fully dodge the attack with a decent amount of the time. High PS alpha strike will definitely be able to chew through him.

Yeah, the one saving grace is that he's so flipping fast that he should be able to jump past the R2-3 limitation on most of those. Rey and Phantoms are obvious exceptions, but they can at least be played around.

Just now, Biophysical said:

Yeah, the one saving grace is that he's so flipping fast that he should be able to jump past the R2-3 limitation on most of those. Rey and Phantoms are obvious exceptions, but they can at least be played around.

Yeah, which comes back to the idea that Kylo needs some really solid wingmen to be doing damage while he's playing bait. Against ordnance you have to fly Kylo like a wuss and that means he's not attacking very often.

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

I can save you the math - evade is always strictly better than autothrusters against a single attack. That's not the point though - evade and reinforce are mathematically equal against a single attack as well.

So I did it anyway... you're right, but there are some surprises.

To explain the graph:
The x axis is the amount of red dice. The blue and red are attacks with 1 modification (Focus or TL), green and purple are double mods (Focus+TL).
The y axis is the difference of expected damage: expected damage of an attack vs 3 green dice + evade, minus by expected damage of an attack vs 3 green dice + autothrusters.
A negative value means that evade prevents more damage, which is the case for most. 10 out of the 24 comparisons have a difference of 0.

To give an example:

3 reds + F + TL vs 3 green + Evade has an expected damage of 0.805.
3 reds + F + TL vs 3 green + Autothrusters has an expected damage of 0.977.
(e: The difference) is 0.805 - 0.977 = -0.172, and that's one of the larger differences.

It's pretty surprising to me to be honest how often they are equal, so zero. And keep in mind that the differences are very small! -0.1 is basically nothing.

• The largest difference is with -0.23 still pretty small.
• There is literally no difference when you have a focus to defend - adding an evade or going to range 3/out of arc if you already have a focus does not really matter
  • to give a example with numbers: 3red +F+TL has 0.313 expected damage against both 3green+F+E and against 3green+F+AT.
• The exception, as expected, is a 4-dice attack when you're on 3 green dice. There, taking an evade is better. But only at range 1-2 of course, because you can potentially evade all 4 with 4 dice.

Summary: It hardly matters, way less than I expected, anyway. And that, as already mentioned by you, is against a single attack. Autothrusters gets way better once the evade token is gone, with differences of up to 0.823.

That means I take back my hierarchy because the difference is too small.

Edit: changed the axis so that both graphs have the same scale. Also, moved the title in each graph

Awesome! The only other thing is what you mentioned before - 4 dice secondaries make autothrusters very sad on 3 dice ships.

Don't worry though, our boy soontir can continue to not care