Do they have to fight? Can't they all just...get along?

6 hours ago, Hinklemar said:

Just going to mention this goes beyond the weapons. If there are a bunch of lethal killers around that think they’re up to trying to take on a brawn 6 guy, where are the talents? It sounds like a few ranks of Feral Strength, Deadly Accuracy, and/or Bring It Down are all you need if you really want an enemy which can threaten him.

Seriously this! If this is a substantial prison they could be housing well experienced career criminals.

Think enforcer, Marauder, ex security or miltary soldiers, smuggler, thief etc.

6 hours ago, whafrog said:

Do they have to fight? Can't they all just...get along?

If they could get along, they wouldn't be in prison.....

This is a Brawn 6 guy in action.....no sharpened spoon in the hands of some routine Joe is gonna get the job done....

6 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

This is a Brawn 6 guy in action.....no sharpened spoon in the hands of some routine Joe is gonna get the job done....

Arterial spray can kill anyone just as quickly. The fact that he's big doesn't make him invulnerable to injury and damage. In fact a long, pointy object, designed to punch through all that flesh is the very kind of thing that could cause serious, and potentially fatal damage to someone like that.

This is a place where the mechanics don't accurately reflect reality. Yes, someone that big is tough in a fight, but if caught unawares, shanked from behind before he can defend himself? Perforated kidneys are perforated kidneys, and internal bleeding can bring down the biggest mofo.

Besides, I do believe there is a very well known, and popular fable about a routine joe taking a big guy with a simple weapon. Let me think, David vs somebody....his name escapes me at the moment

16 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Arterial spray can kill anyone just as quickly. The fact that he's big doesn't make him invulnerable to injury and damage. In fact a long, pointy object, designed to punch through all that flesh is the very kind of thing that could cause serious, and potentially fatal damage to someone like that.

This is a place where the mechanics don't accurately reflect reality. Yes, someone that big is tough in a fight, but if caught unawares, shanked from behind before he can defend himself? Perforated kidneys are perforated kidneys, and internal bleeding can bring down the biggest mofo.

Besides, I do believe there is a very well known, and popular fable about a routine joe taking a big guy with a simple weapon. Let me think, David vs somebody....his name escapes me at the moment

So what you're saying is someone with ranks in Stealth and Melee Skill allowing a character to sneak up on a target and possibly gain Boost dice, knowledge of where to strike on a target as explained in the descriptions of Skill ranks? In addition ranks of Frenzied Attack and/or Deadly Accuracy? Yes I agree, they would be able to do damage even with Soak 6. You've completely missed the point I've been making, and simultaneously inserted your tangential points to prove my point which is the rules are in fact fine as they are and Soak doesn't need tweaking.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

So what you're saying is someone with ranks in Stealth and Melee Skill allowing a character to sneak up on a target and possibly gain Boost dice, knowledge of where to strike on a target as explained in the descriptions of Skill ranks? In addition ranks of Frenzied Attack and/or Deadly Accuracy? Yes I agree, they would be able to do damage even with Soak 6. You've completely missed the point I've been making, and simultaneously inserted your tangential points to prove my point which is the rules are in fact fine as they are and Soak doesn't need tweaking.

The only point you made in that was that he's too big to hurt, which is just simply wrong.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Arterial spray can kill anyone just as quickly. The fact that he's big doesn't make him invulnerable to injury and damage. In fact a long, pointy object, designed to punch through all that flesh is the very kind of thing that could cause serious, and potentially fatal damage to someone like that.

This is a place where the mechanics don't accurately reflect reality. Yes, someone that big is tough in a fight, but if caught unawares, shanked from behind before he can defend himself? Perforated kidneys are perforated kidneys, and internal bleeding can bring down the biggest mofo.

Besides, I do believe there is a very well known, and popular fable about a routine joe taking a big guy with a simple weapon. Let me think, David vs somebody....his name escapes me at the moment

True. But in this system brawn represents as well melee combat ability. Literally as you get ability dice from it. Which means that someone like this is automatically talented in not getting lethally stabbed in the first place. Now if you do manage to crit … 131 … bleeding out …

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

True. But in this system brawn represents as well melee combat ability. Literally as you get ability dice from it. Which means that someone like this is automatically talented in not getting lethally stabbed in the first place. Now if you do manage to crit … 131 … bleeding out …

I am aware, if you note, I stated the mechanics don't reflect reality very well. I even said flat out that someone that big would be tough in a fight.

13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

The only point you made in that was that he's too big to hurt, which is just simply wrong.

No, his point that he is to big to easily get a lot of wounds from someone randomly trying to hit him. He is literally the kind of guy you must attack smart, joints are fine, lethal points are fine as well. Now technical a proper knife technique would be anyway 100% crit based anyway, but let's not get too much realism into our movie violence, especially as it would be pretty boring when most trained melee characters would walk around with 6 ranks of lethal blows and crit-rating 1 weapons. And with boring I mean the constant starting over with new characters… ;-)

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I am aware, if you note, I stated the mechanics don't reflect reality very well. I even said flat out that someone that big would be tough in a fight.

Yeah, someone that big would be tough in a fight and yet you complaining about lacking realism when damage worth bruises and scratches on brawn 1 guy does little on a guy with 6 dice on resilience.
Knives into kidneys work within the system still fine.
Now that the system is lacking a native option to backstab unaware people is indeed a reason to criticize it, but it is not really related to brawn = soak.

Speaking about backstabbing people. Has genesys some option for that?

9 hours ago, Hinklemar said:

Just going to mention this goes beyond the weapons. If there are a bunch of lethal killers around that think they’re up to trying to take on a brawn 6 guy, where are the talents? It sounds like a few ranks of Feral Strength, Deadly Accuracy, and/or Bring It Down are all you need if you really want an enemy which can threaten him.

Quick Strike, too. If you watch most prison movies (or the prison scenes in movies), the scene where some guy gets shanked are all pretty similar. It's either:

A) The guy is not expecting it at all, in which case the attacker takes him entirely by surprise (sitting or standing near him) and then stabs him repeatedly in rapid succession, then stands back. Little actual exchange of blows is going on.

B) The guy knows the other guy/group has it out for him, and is on guard. In these instances, the aggressor typically sets up a scenario to conceal himself: attacks in a crowd, in a dark place, or a crowded dark place . If the initial attempt fails, and it comes to actual blows and fighting technique, the aggressor typically doesn't kill the target.

So in this scenario, Quick Strike is a great example of a talent that the person with the shiv should have. Two to three ranks, I think. They can also Aim, getting a boost to damage, maybe have 1-2 ranks in Melee and have Deadly Accuracy (or Soft Spot and spend a DP). The attempt isn't to beat the Brawn 6 bruiser in an actual fight. Even with a basic weapon, that's suicide, or at least a one-way ticket to solitary when the guards break it up in a few seconds. He would want to do it quick, by surprise, and limit all chance that the PC could counter-attack. Because a guy that big? If he gets a swing in on you and connects, he could kill you right back.

So take him by surprise (probably a Boost in and of itself), win initiative, use your 2 ranks in Quick Strike, proc a DP for +3 from Cunning, Aim once or twice, and you're probably looking at 10-11 base damage (5-6 wounds after Soak) and, hopefully, enough Advantage to crit. Which is what he's really after, after all. And then, well...it's still probably not going to go too well for him, but he might get him ! But going after someone like that is never going to be easy.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

The only point you made in that was that he's too big to hurt, which is just simply wrong.

You clearly haven't read everything I wrote so I am done bothering.

Big Game Hunters would do well in prison, at least after earning some XP. Lots of Stealth buffs, some Quick Strike, and then the coup de grace: Bring it Down lets the BGH flip a DP to add damage equal to the target's Brawn to a single hit. Means that Mr. Brawn's natural burliness works against him!

2 hours ago, Absol197 said:

So take him by surprise (probably a Boost in and of itself), win initiative, use your 2 ranks in Quick Strike, proc a DP for +3 from Cunning, Aim once or twice, and you're probably looking at 10-11 base damage (5-6 wounds after Soak) and, hopefully, enough Advantage to crit. Which is what he's really after, after all. And then, well...it's still probably not going to go too well for him, but he might get him ! But going after someone like that is never going to be easy.

That's not sporting, young lady! Where'd you learn to fight like that?!

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:15 PM, SFC Snuffy said:

That's not sporting, young lady! Where'd you learn to fight like that?!

The art of Shao-lin has taught me well! Leopard style's emphasis on swift and overwhelming strength works great for prison altercations !

Just be glad I didn't suggest Eagle Claw-esque maiming instead. Strangely, the style I'm best at, despite my overwhelming lack of desire to harm.

Historical savate has a similar kick to knee or direct to the shinbone. Though it assumes that you use boots with heels and steel caps.
If I am thinking about it; all martial arts I know build around the idea to apply critical hits in a controlled, repeatable way. Doesn't matter if it's knives, swords, sticks or whatever.

13 hours ago, whafrog said:

Do they have to fight? Can't they all just...get along?

Apparently not. Even the lightsided would-be jedi ended up in a fistfight over stolen desserts. Turns out enhance and sense go a long way to compensate for Brawn 2, Brawl 0.

On 11/30/2017 at 10:36 AM, penpenpen said:

How would you adress the situation? Would you adress it all?

I would wrap a sheet around his neck and choke him out or drown him in a toilet. Maybe blind him with a handful of fecal matter and lay on the hurt. Hurt or kill those inside that he cares for or has grown close to. Leverage the safety of the other PCs and any characters close to the big guy, including having friends on the outside willing to string up his grandma. Plant contraband in his cell or otherwise get him into trouble with the guards who do have weapons. Pin a murder on him and get him thrown in solitary.

so, I'm the only one that read this as "Soap and Prison Fights" and was sort of dreading the content of the thread?

gotcha.

Attack his strain with pressure point, big guy gets chocked out. Then they do what the want with him, "Andy was never the same ..." narrated in your best Morgan Freeman voice.

"I wish I could tell you that Woody got out of Sunnyside okay. I wish I could tell you that. But daycare is no fairy-tale world..."

</morganfreeman>

So, a bit of threadomancy here, but it's my thread and I resurrect if I want to, resurrect if want to. You would resurrect too if it happened to... nevermind. My singing is so terribly out of tune I think it's coming across in text.

Anyways... so I had this idea for a quick-fix.

An unarmored target (natural soak only) can be critted even if damage is reduced to zero by soak.

When it comes to "naturally" armored things like droids, chitin-covered aliens and such it would be up to the GM's discretion if they're unarmored or not, but an idea could be increase the cost of inflicting a crit by one for every point of soak gained from "natural" sources like thick skin, the enduring talent and so on.

And if you want to make it a little harder in general, and not make it a glaring weakness for big animals and monsters like rancors, you could also increase the cost to crit without beating soak by the targets Silhouette.

Meaning that if Slab Beefhunk (Brawn 6, Enduring 1, Silhouette 1) gets into a stabbing contest in the prison shower, he can be critted at the cost of 2 extra advantages if his enemies can't get through his 7 points of soak.

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

An unarmored target (natural soak only) can be critted even if damage is reduced to zero by soak.

Funny, I read that and thought "if you succeed in your hit, regardless of soak, can't you do that anyway?" Turns out I've been erroneously allowing crits even if soak absorbs everything.

So it seems like a reasonable house rule to me...

2 hours ago, whafrog said:

Funny, I read that and thought "if you succeed in your hit, regardless of soak, can't you do that anyway?" Turns out I've been erroneously allowing crits even if soak absorbs everything.

So it seems like a reasonable house rule to me...

My group did the same mistake, took us a while to figure it out. Which was mainly when we considered how ridiculous crit 1 weapon fights got then.

51 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

My group did the same mistake, took us a while to figure it out. Which was mainly when we considered how ridiculous crit 1 weapon fights got then.

I think I started doing it with vehicles, since in the media they're always shooting at vehicles with personal weapons, and sometimes with effect. Then I "forgot" and extended it to all personal scale stuff.

But it's worth reconsidering in light of the way the mechanics work (at least on the personal scale). A "flat" unmodified roll is going to tend towards Success+Threat or Failure + Advantage. Skill ranks and boosts will push a successful roll to have Advantages too, but the more successes, the fewer advantages, and vice versa. If you roll 5 successes on 4 dice, you're unlikely to get any advantages at all since all the positive faces would be taken up with success icons, whereas if you net only 1 success you're likely to get several advantages. This means more crits on "worse" rolls.

I like the general idea of criting regardless of soak effects, but I think increasing Advantages required, or adjusting the crit roll by -10 or -20, would be more balanced.