Ok my peeps... heres a good question for the community.

There are a couple of sil 5 ships that have a hanger with x fighters and y shuttles. As per RAW hangers can only accommdate ships with a sil of up to 2 less than the mother ship's sil.

The thing is I can't think of any shuttles that have been statted that are sil2 or sil3. So, that leaves me thinking of either a lifeboat (1 astromech crew, 25 passengers) or a civilian version of a u wing (yet to be statted out but 2 crew 10 passengers and MAYBE sil3) or the phantom (2 crew 8 passengers but again I don't believe it's been statted out). The only shuttles I can think of that should work are the eta which has 2 crew and 10 passengers or the t-6 which has 2 crew and 4 passengers yet both are sil4... (seems to me that it should be a typo and they SHOULD be sil3 given the small size of them)

Any thoughts or ideas on the matter? I think it kinda sucks a little that the maurader and the minstrel class can take 2 shuttles but they didn't provide info on those shuttles. Or are these ships actually able to take 2 sil4 shuttles? In which case a kappa class and a sentinal landing class would be awesome!...(but not realistic... in a game of laser sword wielding magicians?)

I expect fully operational to provide a means to remedy this, but a shuttle with 4 people (the mando super shuttle from friends like these and the hwk-290 would both work

35 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

As per RAW hangers can only accommdate ships with a sil of up to 2 less than the mother ship's sil.

The aftermarket hanger conversion kit can only accommodate ships with a Sil of up to two less. Purpose built ships ignore attachment restrictions because they are purpose built.

Also don't forget the TIE shuttle that uses the bomber hull format. That's Sil 3 and included in the AoR core.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I expect fully operational to provide a means to remedy this, but a shuttle with 4 people (the mando super shuttle from friends like these and the hwk-290 would both work

Tbh I hadn't thought of the 290 though I should have... I guess I don't really consider it a shuttle though it can work as one well enough. And are you referring to the modified aka'jor shuttle in friends like these? I hadn't noticed it before but it is quite nice. In some ways alot like a 290 but in others far superior. However... are there vanilla stats for it somewhere that I haven't seen? I'd be interested in seeing those if they do exist.

Of course on that vein there is the dart personal flier for 2 and 2, as well as the ad1s modular fighter with fully modded cargo pods... I believe it can carry as much as 25 passengers (6 per pod and up to 4 pods plus 1 in the ship itself) and 2 crew... of course that's all it could do... No hyperspace no shields no weapons but hey... mass transport in a sil3 pinch.

And a couple other fighters as well but again, not really shuttles.

Of course, like you say this will all be a moot point when FO is released... at least it potentially will be anyway... we will have to see the crafting rules to know for sure.

I feel like absol with the mystic book where FO is concerned... so close and yet so far away... can't wait!!!!!!!!!

(I would do the whole EEEEEEeeeee thing but I wouldn't want her thinking I'm mocking her... far from it... I totally understand and sympathize)

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

The aftermarket hanger conversion kit can only accommodate ships with a Sil of up to two less. Purpose built ships ignore attachment restrictions because they are purpose built.

Also don't forget the TIE shuttle that uses the bomber hull format. That's Sil 3 and included in the AoR core.

I hadn't noticed the bomber conversions... but not very likely for a rebel or scum to have one... and twice as dangerous.

As to the purpose built ships... as much as I would like the idea I can't justify in my own mind a sil 5 ship having 2 sil 4 shuttles as well as 6 to 12 fighters. I would maybe say it's an 'either/or' scenario.

8 hours ago, jayc007 said:

As to the purpose built ships... as much as I would like the idea I can't justify in my own mind a sil 5 ship having 2 sil 4 shuttles as well as 6 to 12 fighters. I would maybe say it's an 'either/or' scenario.

C-Roc Gozanti with two shuttles docked to the external docking bays. (Like phoenix squadron A-Wings dock to CR90s) and 5 Miy'til Fighters. Upgrade the weapons to turbolasers on top for extra fun and you got your ragtag alliance cruiser unit.
Call them Ibis Squadron. ;-)

Or if you want to be really funny, litter all over the hull of the ship sil 2 ISP-6 Imperial Shuttle Pods (Dead in the Water, p20), they are single seaters, but who cares, everyone gets his own shuttle and that's what external docking clamps are for. If you need to maintaince you use the retrofitted hangar bay for that. That's what it is for. The shuttle pods are small enough to fit into the cargo bay of a sil 4 shuttle without trouble, Just like speeder bikes, which they basically are. Space worthy speeder bikes for 15,000 credits a pop. So you can store them in some side-room of the hangar too and just reduce encumbrance accordingly.


Anyway, getting back to the OP. All sil 5 ships which have stated to have shuttles in their hangar have a dedicated hangar space, meaning it is save to assume that those shuttles are silhouetted 4 ones. The standard size for shuttles. And now let me help your mind with a few sil 5 ships with a hangar.
FarStar, 8 X-Wings. 4 REC Defender, 1 troop transport, 1 freighter

Ok, just docking clamps. But I love ma Vigil-Class

CVH-911 , can carry about 20 crafts, hangar for 10.

Take note how small those little humans are on board of a ship which in essence is smaller than a CR90 and way smaller than a 200m marauder class which has wings as large as the flight deck and hangar of this little CVH-911 carrier. The central section houses the hangar on the marauder class, basically longer, wider and maybe even taller than the whole taiwanese carrier above.

edit:

And btw, if you thought those sil 5 vessels are cramped with aircrafts, take a look at the CV-63, the USS Kitty Hawk, an american carrier, wielding 83 aircraft on a 320m vessel, which basically is a small sil 6 vessel and not that much smaller than our little 200m marauder. 83 aircraft! The marauder would be about as wide as the Kitty Hawk and right between the Chakri Naruebet and Kitty Hawk in length

7 hours ago, jayc007 said:

I hadn't noticed the bomber conversions... but not very likely for a rebel or scum to have one... and twice as dangerous.

As to the purpose built ships... as much as I would like the idea I can't justify in my own mind a sil 5 ship having 2 sil 4 shuttles as well as 6 to 12 fighters. I would maybe say it's an 'either/or' scenario.

Well for starters remember that Sil is just as much about the ability of a ship to use it engines, thrust and maneuverability, as actual size. So something like the DX-9 transport would possibly be considered on the lower end of Sil 4 in game terms, while actual size is more on the higher end of Sil 3.

And since you're pretty clearly referencing the Marauder Corvette, go back further to the source material. The things hanger capacity is in relation to Corporate Sector IRD fighters, not the bigger Y-wings and such.

The Marauder Corvette in the original novel wasn't described in detail. When WEG too a crack at the Soucebook, they defined a length (though they kinda have a bad track record with that in general) and the IRD design. So the Marauder got a good Corvette scale, and the IRD-1 was depicted as rather compact, looking like an OH-6 cockpit strapped to the front of a short range ballistic missile.

The game makes reasonable concessions and generalizations to allow for smoother play, but also to avoid the mess that years of EU generated. Most of these novelists were telling a story, not writing a technical companion. So lots of fine details were left out, or added later by another novelist who may not have even read the source material at all.

This is partially why the old grognards love the old WEG material, it's often the first real appearance of stuff, or the first attempt to define it's technical details, so there's little to no pollution of content, and easy to incorporate into your story with consistency. Look at the Arrow-23. Originally it's make and model was largely irrelevant, it was just supposed to be a baseline example of a Rebel "Technical" a civilian speeder that rebels mounted a weapon on, welded some plate steel on, and sent into harm's way. But as other writers needed a light armored car, they called out the Arrow-23 specifically, turning it into everything from a BRDM analog to an outright APC depending on the novel. The sad thing being that there should probably be dozens more vehicles and such in circulation, but they were never made because lazy writers preferred to appropriate something else instead of creating something new and more fitting.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

FarStar, 8 X-Wings. 4 REC Defender, 1 troop transport, 1 freighter

Just to be fair, WEG described, but never depicted, how the farstar carried those craft. The Aegis shuttle and Muvon (which with a whopping 1 ton cargo capacity was really a light shuttle and not a freighter) should be strapped to the big side opening. Three X-wings should be hanging from the docking tubes. And Defender fighters are so tiny they have to be Sil 2 (in FFG terms most would probably consider them broken when you factor in what they need to work).

Not that I don't think it can be done, but sometimes I wonder if the artists doing the diagrams bother to look at the original art. Looking at the FarStar, just under the main hangar opening the hull slopes inward, meaning that that "lift" would have to travel diagonally and would cut into the engineering section below. It's a minor thing I know, but it's these things that bug me with diagrams.

Side note, I do wish FFG would just include an external docking clamp mod so that we could build some of the ships seen so far.

Additional pet peeve, the Ghost should be sil 4 and the shuttle docked via an external clamp. That's not a hangar.

25 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Not that I don't think it can be done, but sometimes I wonder if the artists doing the diagrams bother to look at the original art.

I'm pretty sure the artwork was subcontracted out to different people that probably didn't even live in the same time zone. Such was life in the age of early dialup. Only so much you can do to coordinate with a 14.4 modem and internet access paid by the hour.

28 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Side note, I do wish FFG would just include an external docking clamp mod so that we could build some of the ships seen so far.

They are in the EotE Core book with the note they can be handwaved by the GM. Basically they don't do enough to warrant an actual Attachment.

30 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Additional pet peeve, the Ghost should be sil 4 and the shuttle docked via an external clamp. That's not a hangar.

While I agree it should be clamps, I finally came around when I saw how big the Ghost is. It's waaaay bigger than it looks, nearly as big as a corvette.

5 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

While I agree it should be clamps, I finally came around when I saw how big the Ghost is. It's waaaay bigger than it looks, nearly as big as a corvette.

The example I saw was a ghost, falcon, x-wing comparison and the ghost was barely bigger than the falcon area wise, but was over twice as thick. I'm always open to re-evaluating my opinion, but I haven't seen (or even looked for in a good while) anything that would make me change my mind about it, yet.

8 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

They are in the EotE Core book with the note they can be handwaved by the GM. Basically they don't do enough to warrant an actual Attachment.

I must have missed that. Personally, I'd rather see something on there, so I know what it would do to the flight characteristics, what happens when you get shot at, etc.

40 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Not that I don't think it can be done, but sometimes I wonder if the artists doing the diagrams bother to look at the original art. Looking at the FarStar, just under the main hangar opening the hull slopes inward, meaning that that "lift" would have to travel diagonally and would cut into the engineering section below. It's a minor thing I know, but it's these things that bug me with diagrams.

Side note, I do wish FFG would just include an external docking clamp mod so that we could build some of the ships seen so far.

Additional pet peeve, the Ghost should be sil 4 and the shuttle docked via an external clamp. That's not a hangar.

They didn’t need to add such an attachment. The rules themselves say that external docking clamps are standard on most freighters anyway

48 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

While I agree it should be clamps, I finally came around when I saw how big the Ghost is. It's waaaay bigger than it looks, nearly as big as a corvette.

The one thing I wish it would have is speed 4. k-turns for hotshots is really golden for that ship.

MF: 34 x 25 x 7 meters = 6200 m3 volume
Ghost: 43 x 34 x 14 meters = 20,500 m3 volume

1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

The example I saw was a ghost, falcon, x-wing comparison and the ghost was barely bigger than the falcon area wise, but was over twice as thick. I'm always open to re-evaluating my opinion, but I haven't seen (or even looked for in a good while) anything that would make me change my mind about it, yet

These two are what sold me. The Ghost has a similar footprint to the YT-1300, but it's considerably bulkier. So while it's probably the smallest of the Sil 5 ships, it's still big enough to be able to consider it a Sil 5.

1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

I must have missed that. Personally, I'd rather see something on there, so I know what it would do to the flight characteristics, what happens when you get shot at, etc.

Breakout box on the same page as the Z-95 illustration.

And to answer your question, it doesn't formally do anything to flight characteristics or change attacks defenses ect.

This is one of those things you gotta separate from other systems. Yes, most other games would do something here...but why? To what end? Penalizing the players for this doesn't really do anything of value other than discourage it's use... So what?

Likewise consider the source material. Hera has yet to order the Phantom cut loose to improve maneuverability of the Ghost, so it must not seriously impact the Ghosts performance. If it doesn't happen in the show/movies, why should it happen in a game that's whole purpose is to replicate the (cool, but not very realistic) action and drama of the movies?

15 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Also don't forget the TIE shuttle that uses the bomber hull format. That's Sil 3 and included in the AoR core.

I'm even happier to use these now since they popped up in Rogue One which made them even more canonistic. In ESB we get a glimpse of one after Captain Needa requests a "shuttle" (instead of an escape pod ) when Vader wants to meet him in person. We then get a glimpse of his TIE bomberish "shuttle" leaving Needa's SD towards Vader's. In Rogue One , we see two TIE bomberish craft flying from Vader's SD to the Rebel flagship after requesting a boarding party. Then we see Vader and Stormtroopers fighting on the flagship. So obviously they were carrying the Stormtroopers and thus weren't typical TIE bombers .

FFG did things right in AoR when they included TIE bomber variants of a boarding craft (carries a squad of stormtroopers) and a VIP short-ranged shuttle (carries 4 dignitaries more spaciously).

@jayc007 I had several issues I couldn't get past with the core cargo and carried vehicle rules. You might be interested in my Vehicle Ops: Cargo Handling document. Take note of page 6: Carried Vehicles and page 10: Vehicle Attachments (house ruled change to Retrofitted Hangar Bay and my take on Docking Clamps). These made the carried vehicle system a bit more realistic, while still simple, for me.

Re: Ghost - What sold me was noticing this still during a rewatch:

On topic, ship stats break the hanger attachment capacity all the time so I wouldn’t ever consider that in your estimates or whatnot. As far as shuttle sizes, I assume there are plenty of small craft which fit the bill which don’t have stats in the book. The things which get space for book stats seem to be things which show up in the media since ppl want to put things they have seen in their game. It’s only when books like special modifications come out that we get more original creations (since not too many ships which fit the book’s theme are shown/written about).

Just make up some details for a plain jane sil 3, handling -1, speed 2, ht 14 st 6, 1 def, 2 hp, 1 light laser cannon, 1 crew, 6 passenger, no hyperdrive tin can and call it a day. Prolly rarity 3 and 20,000cr.

19 hours ago, Sturn said:

...You might be interested in my Vehicle Ops: Cargo Handling document... These made the carried vehicle system a bit more realistic, while still simple, for me.

Wow. Thats impressive! Nice work.

So a question for you... what size containers would you call those on a c-roc? It appears to have 2 sizes available, half or full. And it looks like it can take 16 or 8 of those on the wings... ( I imagine those being loaded up to an airlock type door which would make the containers capable of opening into the vessel and the contents being accessible during transit). I was thinking that they would be 500 encumberance for the full and 250 for the half but I wasn't sure that would jive. I'e been trying to figure out their size for a while. I did read that they take the same containers as you would find on a gr-75 but couldn't find the container size for that either.

...

After doing a little digging it looks like it would be 100 and 200 at most... although I would say there are 100's of containers on a gr75 and it only has 1000 encumberance. Personally id say it should be 10000 but hey.

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:33 PM, jayc007 said:

After doing a little digging it looks like it would be 100 and 200 at most... although I would say there are 100's of containers on a gr75 and it only has 1000 encumberance. Personally id say it should be 10000 but hey.

You could argue some of those are 50 Encumbrance containers by the description of the "Small Container". But, even if you said it's just 200 containers, that is still 10,000 Encumbrance, not 1,000. If it bugs you, the GR75 is a silhouette 5 and the mainstay for cargo runs of the Rebel fleet. Perhaps the 1,000 is a typo? Make it 10,000 which is exactly what the Action IV carries at the same silhouette.

I just finished up uploading an updated Cargo Handling document (now version 5 6) after discovering discrepancies between the cargo container text and table.

3 hours ago, Sturn said:

You could argue some of those are 50 Encumbrance containers by the description of the "Small Container". But, even if you said it's just 200 containers, that is still 10,000 Encumbrance, not 1,000. If it bugs you, the GR75 is a silhouette 5 and the mainstay for cargo runs of the Rebel fleet. Perhaps the 1,000 is a typo? Make it 10,000 which is exactly what the Action IV carries at the same silhouette.

I just finished up uploading an updated Cargo Handling document (now version 5 6) after discovering discrepancies between the cargo container text and table.

The GR75 should be a capital ship and capital ships go in their cargo capacity way beyond their encumbrance rating. That is at least with FFG writes while continuing to give them to low encumbrance ratings to transport cargo efficiently while to high encumbrance ratings to just account for crew quarters and personal storage capacities. Though it seems often fitting for the internal cargo space, while not accounting to any docked containers.

Quote

Capital Ship Capacity (grey box, page 266 EotE-CRB)
Capital ships and large freighters are extremely sizeable, and thus have a great deal to capability for carrying cargo. Due to this, the encumbrance capacities listed are simply the minimum capability of the ship has for transporting supply and resources. Most of these ships could carry far more if the need arose.

Personally I consider anything within the encumbrance rating of the ship accessible directly from within the ship by just walking to some cargo or storage rooms, while anything beyond is locked away in some container and not easily accessible, like for example a large 22m long container docked to a YT-1300.

4 really large containers on a slim freighter.

Cargo Drop, minor rebels season 3 spoiler:

4 hours ago, Sturn said:

You could argue some of those are 50 Encumbrance containers by the description of the "Small Container". But, even if you said it's just 200 containers, that is still 10,000 ... ... the GR75 is a silhouette 5 and the mainstay for cargo runs of the Rebel fleet. Perhaps the 1,000 is a typo? Make it 10,000 which is exactly what the Action IV carries at the same silhouette.

I just finished up uploading an updated Cargo Handling document (now version 5) after discovering discrepancies between the cargo container text and table.

Wow. Well i didnt notice any discrepancies on my first read but hey.

As to the gr75... Yeah I think it makes sense that it is 10 000 unless you take Wookieepedia into account... 75000 metric tonnes for the action 4 vs 18000 for the gr75 iirc.

Encumbrance 1000 and 100 passengers fits rather well for the stern section of the ship under the bridge which is not space for cargo containers.
The GR-75 is a 90m long freighter after all. It has about 13m height for several decks in the aft section for engineering, crew quarters, storage rooms, etc, and those decks go up to 37m in length and about 20m wide. 1000 encumbrance, enough space for the engineering and engine sections of the ship seems actually rather reasonable, the rest of the hull is dedicated cargo container space protected by a shell, which most likely includes passenger quarters for 100 persons on the top side as well.

As the encumbrance of 1000 is the bare minimum, it kind of safe to assume that it is without added cargo containers, leaving basically most of the ship empty and ready to take containers in. On top are you getting room for 100 passengers ON TOP of those 1000 encumbrance. Unlike with the CR90 this is not a one or the other thing, you get both. Making the GR-75 a dedicated ship to transport equipment and whole crew to use that equipment from A to B. Kind of ideal for rebel operations and transport between major worlds which attracted passengers and can run on a regular schedule. Though to be fair even with 100 passengers and a decent thing hull, life support systems, etc … it still sounds rather spacious. There is room for at least one main deck which goes for the whole 90mx20m, this alone is enough to give each passenger a 18m² suite. So even if the minimum is without the cargo containers, it still a rather low estimate. But it in the end works as close enough and should never be really relevant anyway.

Quote

Personally I consider anything within the encumbrance rating of the ship accessible directly from within the ship by just walking to some cargo or storage rooms, while anything beyond is locked away in some container and not easily accessible, like for example a large 22m long container docked to a YT-1300.

Well if we thought like that then lots of ships would make a bit more sense...

So what would you suggest a gr75 could hold in the containers then?

Ah sorry. Started to reply then had to put my daughter to bed and got distracted. It looks lime you already answered my question.