You understand lasers are less accurate, yes? The beam on the table has a width, and proper accuracy needs the ruler.

On 11/30/2017 at 9:31 PM, RufusDaMan said:

LAZORS

That wiggle gap between the nub and template is my bread and butter. I like to give the template a little pinball bounce so my opponent knows I'm deciding which nub to use for the upcoming maneuver.

12 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

That wiggle gap between the nub and template is my bread and butter. I like to give the template a little pinball bounce so my opponent knows I'm deciding which nub to use for the upcoming maneuver.

I'm just happy I live in a time where "Use a laser" is a perfectly normal response to a problem.

10 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You understand lasers are less accurate, yes? The beam on the table has a width, and proper accuracy needs the ruler.

Lasers have an edge too...

Edit: Can't gif on phone...

9 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

Edit: Can't gif on phone...

I can.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Lasers have an edge too...

No, they don't. Because of physics.

I mean, yes, but also, no.

My laser projects a dot with a diameter, smeared by a prism into a line with a width. That line has an edge.

QED.

Personally I find that line on most gaming lazers to be a little fuzzy compared with cold, hard, steal plastic. Unless you've brought surveying equipment with you, of course.

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

Personally I find that line on most gaming lazers to be a little fuzzy compared with cold, hard, steal plastic. Unless you've brought surveying equipment with you, of course.

Wait, there are people who show up to game night without their industrial-quality surveyor's tools?

Amateurs.

For a general approximation, lasers are awesome. Especially if there are a lot of ships in the way. If it's sufficiently close enough, like a centimeter difference would change the result, double check with the ruler. If you're using a laser that you hold above the ships, make it an inch.

For the bulls-eye arc, I'll echo what someone else said. Just use the ruler. People are putting too much thought into a gimmicky way to measure.

Laser's fine like 8 times out of 10 and cuts through messy board states a lot more easily than a ruler. But when it gets really tight you should always use a ruler instead.

I mention it because people think lasers are more accurate, when they're actually considerably worse.

2 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

Personally I find that line on most gaming lazers to be a little fuzzy compared with cold, hard, steal plastic. Unless you've brought surveying equipment with you, of course.

I find industrial-quality cutting lasers to be extremely precise and never really need to resort to templates.

It gets expensive in smoking, bisected starship models, of course, but I feel that just adds to the ambience of the game.

....Okay, now I'm getting a flashback to the Force Awakens concept art book:

WHat the heck?

Sorry to rain on your parade but I'm afraid lasers aren't as reliable as some people think. As long as there's only cardboard and the mat between the ships, things are fine. But usually the beam passes through a piece of the side of the plastic base and that's where things get tricky. Plastic is translucent and acts like a prism, changing the path of the beam ever so slightly. On several occasions I had situations where even after perfectly aligning the beam with the firing arc it showed something else than a range ruler did. Ever since, I stopped using laser altogether unless the beam does not have to pass through the plastic base, such as when checking whether a shot is obstructed. I also use it in Armada, where there's no or very little plastic on the outside of the ship's cardboard.

In case of bullseye arc I'm afraid the nubs might cause issues. By the very definition the arc will be aligned with them, which means that the beam would have to pass through a small but curved piece of transparent plastic. I haven't yet checked whether or how it affects the beam's direction but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets distorted somehow.

What about lasers that project a straight line instead a dot.

I assumed everyone is talking about those.

I don't see how is a ruler better than that.

Just now, RufusDaMan said:

What about lasers that project a straight line instead a dot.

I assumed everyone is talking about those.

I don't see how is a ruler better than that.

Yes that's what we're talking about, and a ruler is better for all the reasons outlined above.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Yes that's what we're talking about, and a ruler is better for all the reasons outlined above.

How.

You project it from above. It makes a straight line from point to point. What's the issue here?

Saying that for the reasons above is not really an answer. So far the only explanation I got is that plastic acts as a prism. Which would be fine, but that doesn't affect anything if you use the laser from above.

The light is coming from above, from the laser pointer to the mat. Even if the photons are deflected from the nubs, it doesn't matter since we don't care about the light reflecting from the nubs. We still only care about the other points on the mat, forming a straight line. These points are projected straight from the laser pointer, therefore the interference of the nubs doesn't matter.

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No, they don't. Because of physics.

It's not a solid edge, and while it's very curved, it does exist.

1 minute ago, Celestial Lizards said:

It's not a solid edge, and while it's very curved, it does exist.

Considering that all of my cardboard rulers for both Armada and XWing are curved in at least one dimension (and in the case of x wing, as a defined twist) ... I fail to see the problem re: tolerance levels.

4 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

How.

You project it from above. It makes a straight line from point to point. What's the issue here?

Saying that for the reasons above is not really an answer. So far the only explanation I got is that plastic acts as a prism. Which would be fine, but that doesn't affect anything if you use the laser from above.

The light is coming from above, from the laser pointer to the mat. Even if the photons are deflected from the nubs, it doesn't matter since we don't care about the light reflecting from the nubs. We still only care about the other points on the mat, forming a straight line. These points are projected straight from the laser pointer, therefore the interference of the nubs doesn't matter.

Here are the problems I have with a laser.

1. Most people don't use them correctly. If you're holding the laser above the ships then you're likely not holding it steady. Causes a lot of inaccuracy. Using a ruler lets me anchor my hands to the mat preventing most movement. If you're using one of those picture mount ones that you can set on the table, that's better. I'll assume that for the rest of the list.

2. Putting it directly on the arc line is difficult and often done incorrectly. People often put the laser right on the line making the "edge" of the laser over the line. Then they claim if it touches on the other end it counts. That's wrong.

3. Since some people don't realize the width of the laser, they don't put it on the line straight which compounds the further you get from the ship.

4. Yes, since the line has a thickness and an edge, you can in theory line it up right, but that edge is kind of fuzzy so it's difficult to define.

Yes, many of these issues exist with ruler measurements, but it is easier to mitigate those issues with a ruler. Lasers are quick and get through the cumbersome board state that may exist. They are a great way to get a quick approximation. Once things start getting super close, I use the ruler and prefer to use an acrylic that is translucent.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Considering that all of my cardboard rulers for both Armada and XWing are curved in at least one dimension (and in the case of x wing, as a defined twist) ... I fail to see the problem re: tolerance levels.

A twisted or curved ruler would be considered a damaged component and should not be used. This is one of the reasons I encourage players to compare components with their opponent to make sure you're both on the same playing field.

15 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

You project it from above. It makes a straight line from point to point. What's the issue here?

Generally the line is fuzzy and inaccurate (these are only cheap red LEDS and a line cut out, for the most part) and the distance you have to hold them magnifies any issues or slight shake in the hand. I've seen (on a very constant basis with a variety of opponents) stuff that appears to be clearly in from a laser be a good handful of mm out if you take the time to line up a ruler.

Obviously lasers are useful for a better-than-eyeball guess, but I would never trust them 100%.

3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Generally the line is fuzzy and inaccurate (these are only cheap red LEDS and a line cut out, for the most part) and the distance you have to hold them magnifies any issues or slight shake in the hand. I've seen (on a very constant basis with a variety of opponents) stuff that appears to be clearly in from a laser be a good handful of mm out if you take the time to line up a ruler.

Obviously lasers are useful for a better-than-eyeball guess, but I would never trust them 100%.

Personally, I'd trust a laser over the ruler. For one thing, cardboard is much more prone to bending/warping than a laser is. For another, with a laser I don't have to worry about accidentally bumping a ship or an obstacle. They have to be lined up properly, of course, but so does a ruler, and those can be much harder to line up when you're near the extreme limits of range and can't overlap the line much.