To answer my own question, I'm thinking PS11/FCS has a slight edge in both cases. The mirror is tough for both, PTL/AdvS can attack from so many directions, but it has to guess right, wherea VI can respond, but without as many of options.

Against the field, VI is probably worse, but its really dependent entirely on the meta. The weird thing is that the better PTL Kylo is, the better VI will be, because there will be more specific counters to PTL Kylo. It not onlu gets over things like PS10 and soke PS 11 alpha strikes, but it costs less and gives you points for a real 3rd ship.

16 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The answer is probably the same as the answer of who wins in the comparable Corran vs Corran battle.

Whoever is worth more points, or if they're the same, whoever gets luckiest.

55 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

To answer my own question, I'm thinking PS11/FCS has a slight edge in both cases. The mirror is tough for both, PTL/AdvS can attack from so many directions, but it has to guess right, wherea VI can respond, but without as many of options.

Against the field, VI is probably worse, but its really dependent entirely on the meta. The weird thing is that the better PTL Kylo is, the better VI will be, because there will be more specific counters to PTL Kylo. It not onlu gets over things like PS10 and soke PS 11 alpha strikes, but it costs less and gives you points for a real 3rd ship.

This was my main take away after proxying a couple games on Vassal.

PS9 PTL/Advanced Sensors Kylo is good because he has the Green Re-Rolls and HP to survive an early game Alpha Strike.

My top 3 "Kylo Silencer" lists to experiment with in no particular order are listed below.

For the Spec Ops list you can drop the title on Kylo & fit Score to Settle Quickdraw and Backdraft without LWF.

#1: Kylo's Spec Ops

#2: Vader Cosplay

#3: Palp's Fan Club

How much work are you getting out of the title on PS11/FCS Kylo?

36 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

How much work are you getting out of the title on PS11/FCS Kylo?

The offensive re-roll got use in the opening engagement before FCS triggers.

Besides that after only a few games I already feel attached to the title as a safety net crutch against multiple missiles and turrets etc.

Especially without bringing Palp along for the ride, getting caught at Range 2 instead of Range 3 is bad news.

Without those green rerolls I would have a hard time not choosing a fully equipped PS11 Quickdraw every time at 38 pts with a Cruise or Harpoon Missile instead.

42 pt VI/FCS/Title Kylo feels balanced. Wish the defensive rerolls were a part of the Tie/x1 Advanced Title for Vader.

If I drop the title I might just drop autothrusters to run this bad idea

19 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea your right.....his harpoon/cruise missiles should keep it sorta close but Autothrusters is a real difference maker in that matchup.

And of course Vader probably immediatly sees a PS0 after the initial engagement.

Its still going to be thematically satisfying to destroy Kylo Silencer with Vader every now and then and it certainly puts some pressure on PS9 Kylo since something else at PS11 is likely with Vader.

When you kill Kylo flying Luke Skywalker the skies will part and a ray of light will illuminate your table in a force bath of warmth.

Just out of fun but a bit off-topic: triple Harpoon highPS alpha strike against a Kylo with1 focus. I have 1 Focus+TL+GC, and 2TL+GC attacks, and I'll look at both range 2 and 3.

• Range2
  • Vader
    • F+TL+GC vs Focus: expected 2.1 hits
    • F+TL+GC: expected 2.85 hits with 94% of 2+ hits
  • QD/Inq
    • TL+GC vs Focus: expected 1.84 hits
    • TL+GC: expected 2.56 hits
• Range3
  • Vader
    • F+TL+GC vs Focus+AT: expected 1.35 hits (but just 1.5% chance of 0 hits!)
    • F+TL+GC vs AT: expected 2.1hits (with 0.5% chance of 0 hits!)
  • QD/Inq
    • TL+GC vs Focus+AT: expected 1.09 hits (with 19.25% chance of 0 hits)
    • TL+GC vs AT: expected 1.82 hits (with 8.05% chance of 0 hits)

This means:

• in range 3, Vader might strip the focus and then QD and Inq will push one damage through, each, for a total of 3 + 3 conditions
• in range 2, everything is way easier and Kylo is expected to die, even without any crit

This should highlight how important Autothrusters and range control are on Kylo. Also, he has a failsafe with his title, but chances are that he will use it immediately. However, 2 points to survive the first round of combat is a good return of investment as far as I'm concerned.

@GreenDragoon

This with Palp against 5 fully modified dice without using the Title....

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

What are the #s against this with Palp?

8.0085

So the only thing you add is the evade and Palp for the shot by Vader, and SensorJammer for the other two missiles.

All range 3:

The evade is huge, and changes Vader's attack into a miss, with a 98.5% chance to spend the token.
Then you have 57.8% chance that QD&Inq shoot at a tokenless Kylo, resulting ing 24% chance to miss entirely.
The other 42.2% are against a Focus for the first shot, with a 49% chance to miss (and 50.5% that Kylo has to spend the token), with Inq following up again with the 24% chance to miss.

Or to make it short: there's way too much that can happen that any numbers are useful, but it looks like Kylo will survive pretty well. Which means: go for Stridan, basically guaranteed 9 damage + 2x 20% chance to trigger conditions, which will deal more damage to Kylo than targeting him could

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

8.0085

So the only thing you add is the evade and Palp for the shot by Vader, and SensorJammer for the other two missiles.

All range 3:

The evade is huge, and changes Vader's attack into a miss, with a 98.5% chance to spend the token.
Then you have 57.8% chance that QD&Inq shoot at a tokenless Kylo, resulting ing 24% chance to miss entirely.
The other 42.2% are against a Focus for the first shot, with a 49% chance to miss (and 50.5% that Kylo has to spend the token), with Inq following up again with the 24% chance to miss.

Or to make it short: there's way too much that can happen that any numbers are useful, but it looks like Kylo will survive pretty well. Which means: go for Stridan, basically guaranteed 9 damage + 2x 20% chance to trigger conditions, which will deal more damage to Kylo than targeting him could

Ok then......Oicunn to the rescue.

Imperial Plot Armor

23 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok then......Oicunn to the rescue.

Dude, I'm not planning on doing a PhD in X-Wing probability!

Anyway, here you go. But I'm assuming that Vader always shoots first, so I won't go through all possibilities!

• Range 2
  • Vader
    • F+TL+GC vs F+E+Palpatine spent: 69% to miss entirely, expected damage of 0.36 (THE moment to Palp)
    • F+TL+GC vs F+E: 25% chance to miss, expected damage 1.11
  • QD/Inq (Evade will be spent with 99.5% chance...)
    • TL+GC vs F (42% chance to keep it): 1.82 expected [it's 1.824 and clearly a mistake in my initial listing where I didn't press down hard enough on the 2]
    • TL+GC vs F+Palp: 1.09 expected, 19.25% to miss entirely (maybe the second moment to Palp?)
    • TL+GC vs - (58% for QD and again for Inq): 2.56 expected
    • TL + GC vs Palp: 1.63 expected. Palp will almost definitely prevent a damage
• Range 3
  • Vader
    • F+TL+GC vs F+E+AT+Palp: 95% chance to miss!
    • F+TL+GC vs F+E+AT: 69% chance to miss, AT basically works like a free Palp! Again highlighting how incredibly strong AT is, and how important range control!
  • QD/Inq (Evade will be spent with 98.5% chance...)
    • TL+GC vs F+AT: 1.09 expected, 19.25% to miss (again the free Palp), 56% probability to spend the focus
    • TL+GC vs F+AT+Palp: 0.79 expected, 25% to miss entirely, but the most likely case is 1 damage
    • TL+GC vs AT: 1.81 expected, 8% chance to miss
    • TL+GC vs AT+Palp: 1.05 expected, 19.5% to miss

Wow, I did not expect SensorJammer to be that impactful!

So to make it short:

At range 2, Kylo can evade one missile by Vader if he spends everything, Then he'll take around 4 damage and 2 conditions.
At range 3, Kylo can definitely evade Vader, and then take probably 2 damage and 2 conditions.

Range control against Autothrusters is incredibly important. But that's nothing new

Edit: also, maybe we two should get a room or something and leave this thread...

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

To answer my own question, I'm thinking PS11/FCS has a slight edge in both cases. The mirror is tough for both, PTL/AdvS can attack from so many directions, but it has to guess right, wherea VI can respond, but without as many of options.

Against the field, VI is probably worse, but its really dependent entirely on the meta. The weird thing is that the better PTL Kylo is, the better VI will be, because there will be more specific counters to PTL Kylo. It not onlu gets over things like PS10 and soke PS 11 alpha strikes, but it costs less and gives you points for a real 3rd ship.

personally, not the least bit impressed by this theoretical kylo

this is because the mods, while solid, are not impressive for its incredible cost. Full mods with 3-dice are practically standard to be able to accomplish anything at all in this game.

this is also because the re-positioning elements, while solid, are ALSO not impressive. It's all fairly typical stuff that we've all seen before on fair cheaper platforms, all of it open to typical counterplay mechanics such as obstacles, stress, and blocking (and conner nets if they need to be employed again).

Advanced sensors with primed, on the other hand, just can't really be countered via traditional means. You can only really try to out ps it.

VI FCS silencer really just strikes me as nothing new, other than Threat-whatevers giving you pseudo-phennir at the cost of your TLs in the following rounds

now sensor Kylo is nowhere near as durable as sensor Corran, but Corran isn't relatively stress immune

21 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

1) PS11 Darth Vader

2) PS11 Darth Vader

3) PS11 Darth Vader

FFG went completely thematic on this one.

Kylo Ren looks cool sure, but he will NEVER be as good as his grandfather flown by a decent player.

I'm not buying this tbh.

After the initial engagement, what does Vader do exactly? His dial is terrible and he can't turn around easily. Most he could do is either 2 hard turn + boost or do a terribad 4k turn with no actions.

Contrast this to Kylo, who could Advanced Sensors to take a single focus, K-Turn/Talon Roll, then next turn clear the stress alot more easily than Vader could.

15 minutes ago, chico2323 said:

I'm not buying this tbh.

After the initial engagement, what does Vader do exactly? His dial is terrible and he can't turn around easily. Most he could do is either 2 hard turn + boost or do a terribad 4k turn with no actions.

Contrast this to Kylo, who could Advanced Sensors to take a single focus, K-Turn/Talon Roll, then next turn clear the stress alot more easily than Vader could.

I dont completely disagree. Still PS9 Kylo does not have a massive advantage against a decent PS11 Vader or Quickdraw player.

I will proxy a 1 on 1 Vader vs PTL Kylo duel tonight and report back.

As a side note remember, the best Vader is usually 35-38 pts and has PS11 Quickdraw or PS10 RAC next to him.

On 2017-11-29 at 3:04 PM, Biophysical said:

I don't think that's true. Autothrusters, one more hit point, system, tech....

But a bad pilot ability and a lot more expensive. Whats better, focus/evade that allows you to fortress no matter the situation without being stressed or autothrusters with no evade and stress when doing a double action?.... I dont believe it's an instant win.

23 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

The offensive re-roll got use in the opening engagement before FCS triggers.

Issue with that mentality is the title for some god awful reason has a "only 1 enemy ship in arc" restriction.

Getting it off early game wont be easy. You'll have to be angled just right to only get your intended target in arc, and often that wont be possible because the target is guarded by other ships.

That stupid enemy ship restriction will keep me from ever cutting points somewhere to get that title. I'll take it if i got points since its not totally worthless but can definitely get better for 2pts these days.

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Issue with that mentality is the title for some god awful reason has a "only 1 enemy ship in arc" restriction.

Getting it off early game wont be easy. You'll have to be angled just right to only get your intended target in arc, and often that wont be possible because the target is guarded by other ships.

That stupid enemy ship restriction will keep me from ever cutting points somewhere to get that title. I'll take it if i got points since its not totally worthless but can definitely get better for 2pts these days.

The offensive perk is gravy and easier to use the better you are at controlling the range of your approach and angle of attack.

The defensive rerolls though are why you spend the 2 pts.

10-15 dice attacks in one round with harpoons/cruise missiles aren't suddenly going away after Wave 12 hits.

That title is my 2nd favorite thing about Kylo.

Its really helpful.

30 minutes ago, Thormind said:

But a bad pilot ability and a lot more expensive. Whats better, focus/evade that allows you to fortress no matter the situation without being stressed or autothrusters with no evade and stress when doing a double action?.... I dont believe it's an instant win.

It all depends on what's trying to kill you, and how you want to play.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It all depends on what's trying to kill you, and how you want to play.

Heck, I've been flying FAA Intensity Comm relay T70s lately, and even 2 defense dice with token stack and autothrusters shrugs off most attacks.

25 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Heck, I've been flying FAA Intensity Comm relay T70s lately, and even 2 defense dice with token stack and autothrusters shrugs off most attacks.

Don‘t underestimate the evade though! Kylo is in more trouble than your T70s (which I love btw)