I still class myself as fairly new to Descent. I first played it about 2 years ago, but have only ever played it 6 times without RtL (and then only the first 2 quests from JitD), and now we are 5 sessions into RtL.

There are so many house rules out there for the game that intially I swamped myself with them thinking I need to use them all to make the game better. Then I went away from that and started trying to play it out of the book.

However, there are some things which I think need changing and from reading lots of other threads about it, I am tempted to.

So, what this thread is for is for people to help me make that decision, preferably by saying "Yes you should introduce that rule, and this is why", or also equally important is to say to me "No, dont introduce it - and this is why"

So - my first one. Soaring.

There is lots about this in the FAQ but neither me or my players are happy with them. The main one is Soar blocking LOS and movement. Our house rule was going to be that it does NOT block LOS and movement, but that a figure cannot stop on a space underneath it. This is assuming the creature is soaring, because as per the rules, it can choose to "land" in order to benefit from terrain.

The other thing is if a soaring creature is behind terrain which would block LOS - I'm pretty sure that it still should.

Large Creatures and Water

This just seems completely wrong. However, the whole concept of water in Descent is a bit silly. They needed some piece of terrain which blocks movement but not LOS and came up with water. I cant think of anything better myself, but it may have been better not to have one at all than come up with this "dangerous water"

I guess the rules for large creatures not being able to cross water is in line with normal figures not being able to jump over it, so I couldnt really change one without changing the other. I guess the only thing is to keep thinking about water like rubble except that it doesnt block LOS.

Blast and Shadowcloak

According to the rules, the actual source of the attack has to come from an adjacent space, so in order to hit a creature with shadowcloak when using blast, unless you want to be affected by the attack yourself, you have to target a space that is adjacent to the foe but not yourself. To me, this is abusing the rules as written and seems completely wrong. So I was going to house rule that you couldnt do that. I know this doesnt happen a lot.

Gauntlet / Bow combo

I dont have the details at hand, but there is an infinite combo you can get with some gauntlets and a magic bow. This should be fixed officially in my opinion, but until it does, something else should be put in place. Something like the gauntlets only being used once per turn.

Crushing Blow in RtL

So many postings about this. A lot of actually removed the card from the game because it is so unbalancing. I'm on week 15 of my first campaign and I'm considering buying a point in treachery just to buy this card because I need to get rid of some "broken" items that my players have. So for me, I need it to attempt to rebalance the campaign in my favour. Should the card be removed for RtL? Should it be recosted (either in terms of threat or treachery?) Also, items destroyed by it go back into the treasure pile to be found again (possibly) later on, which seems completely wrong. "Oh no, you destroyed the Magic Bow of which there are only 1. But wait, here it is again."

Skill availability in RtL

I've probably been more affected by this than others, but certain combinations of skills / characters give the heroes such a boost at the start of a campaign that it can be pretty much decided right from the start. Whilst this also happens in vanilla descent, I'm happy to play a 6 hour game where the heroes had a lucky combo of stuff, but when you get lucky at the start of a campaign - you then either abandon the game (not great), or sit though 100+ hours of gaming and the end result is what you thought it would be at the start.

Are certain skills just a bit too good for heroes to start with that they should be removed from the deck on initial pick. I'm thinking of the ones which are only available at the secret training areas. Surely they were put in these locations because that meant the heroes had to travel far to get them?

Boggs / Kirga in RtL

I've not used Boggs or Kirga yet in RtL, but I keep seeing posts that it is a bit broken

Soaring

We've used a similar ruling, though we found it time consuming, and annoying to keep track of who was in sky and who wasn't - as well as it seriously downscaled the Soaring ability. So instead, we decided that Melee attacks 'can' attack Soaring creatures, but that they have to beat the Range 4 with their dice. This seems to work finely at the moment and gives Red-Yellow melee (and Reach) a small edge in beating Soaring creatures.

Water

Definitely wouldn't house rule this, as they are supposed to be uncrossable in the questdesign. But the squid attack is kinda wierd

Blast and Shadowcloak

I can't quite figure what you mean by abusing the rules. Both the origin of the attack and the attacker has to stand adjecent to the Shadowcloaked figure, which makes it rather difficult to Blast them.

Gauntlets / Bow Combo

This is actually a Gauntlets / Rapid Fire Skill combo. I haven't yet seen the true menace of this, however, I am prepared myself to limit Rapid Fire. Just not certain how, yet. Probably once per attack only.

Crushing Blow

I don't think it's that broken. Though abusive use of the card might feel or be. But without it, you can easily be doomed.

Skills in RTL

Remember that the heroes only start with one skill, not three. If you fear a powerful combo, send your Leiutenant to raze the city that contains the skill.

Boggs / Kriga in RTL

Haven't seen neither in RTL yet, luckily. I think their power is much dependent on the type of monsters you use. If you use a lot of melee (Humaniods) then certainly they will be a pain in the arse.

Edderkoppen: That is an interesting rule on soaring I think our play group may give it a try.

Shadow Cloak says that the origin of the attack has to be adjacent when you blast the target square is not the origin so as Edderkoppen says there is no loophole here.

Kirga is no more of a pain in RtL than in vanilla descent. Hero's can play well to prevent a lot of spawning anyway so its the overlords job to try and maneuver the hero's how he wants. Boggs is good at covering the hero's rear but as the dungeons are pretty small anyway there is usually not much rear area to spawn in.

deleted post due to quotation problems

Paul Grogan said:

Corbon said:

Good explanation. I withdraw my argument

Corbon said:

Well, in my group, Landrec got Spiritwalker from the start and they then found the Staff of the Grave in the first chest on the first dungeon. So for me, a broken combo was introduced to our campaign in week 1 without the heroes have to save money or waste time. They didnt have to give up anything, there was nothing I can do and I've been pretty screwed since.

Crushing Blow the staff. It’s the weapon that causes me the biggest headache and, more importantly in my opinion, removes a lot of the tension which is generated by the Undying ability. I thing I like most about the Undying skill is the sense of relief that the players feel if you fail the roll and the sense of joy you feel as an Overlord if some lone master skeleton makes the roll 2 or 3 times in a row J

Undying’s not about skill, it’s pure luck and a great laugh and that’s why I hate that staff. Crushing Blow it. In fact, if you’re having massive problems, put 2 Crushing Blows in your deck: a ranged character with Rapid Fire & fatigue upgrades won’t do quite as much damage if he’s walking around with the shop crossbow. Please note, this is not my preferred style personally (I usually tinker with the deck using Treachery so we have different cards in each dungeon and only think 1-2 moves ahead: I play Descent to have fun rather than use my brain too much) but you CAN as Overlord destroy the characters if you really want to, especially early on.

One question: are the players currently ignoring your plight i.e. are they totally unsympathetic to the trouncing you’re getting (and hence the lack of fun you’re having)? If yes, it’s amazing how their attitude could change after all their decent gear is destroyed J

Be careful though: Crushing Blow is quite demoralising for the heroes which is why I rarely use it (except on that bloody staff). Good luck.

Noodle2977 said:

Easier said than done. Saving up the 15 XP to buy the point of treachery is the easy part. But then when I get CB in my hand I have to actually hit a hero to use it. And there is the problem. Because Landrec has Spiritwalker, he hides at the back and so I cant usually get to him.

The staff is simply broken. It is way too powerful for a copper item, even a cursed one. The weapon is already a bit too good, even without the removing of Undying. From what everyone is saying, Crushing Blow is the only solution to getting rid of the item, but it seems a bit stupid if I have to jump through hoops and do something that I wouldnt normally do, and spend most of my game working out exactly how to get rid of 1 item. If the weapon is indeed too good, it should be nerfed or removed, which would remove the need for Crushing Blow.

I recently got enough XP to buy the treachery, but was advised by most other people to upgrade my monsters. So now I am back at 1XP and it will be a while before I get the 15.

Noodle2977 said:

Thats a difficult one - The players are fully aware of how it is going for them. Two players even said they were happy to stop and start another one. However, I agreed to carry on, since this is a learning experience for us all. But they are quite rightly just carrying on as before, trying their best to not get killed and do things as they would normally.

Paul Grogan said:

Many weapons are too good indeed. You only need to get to him once, just spawn razorwings to get to the caster and CB his stuff. You can use charge if you really have to. CB is needed ,as the items are nowhere near balanced, but it is way too strong as it is:

we recosted it to 2 Treachery and we houseruled it so that it gives you a 75% refund on the item.

the gauntlets + rapid fire are a brutal combo. Limiting rapid fire to 3 extra attacks / normal one makes it still very powerful but not infinitely so.

Soaring is inded completely broken, having monsters block LoS and movement while being invulnerable to melee was a recipe for disaster imo. Having the monster not block LoS and movement, but not allowing other to end their move under a soaring figure has worked nicely so far. Just use a counter for soaring creatures.

Kirga is good in RTL, but so is she in vanilla. I don't think her ability gets that much bettter except in few dungeons.

Galdred said:

Personally, I think CB in RtL should be 2 treachery. Not sure about the refund though.

However, I am also strongly of the opinion that the OL shouldnt have to go down a particular route to deal with a 'broken' weapon. The weapon should be fixed. That would mean it would be more balanced and remove the need for CB.

I'm thinking something like the Staff being +2 damage for 2 surges, +2 range for 2 surges, and for 2 surges it can remove a figures 'Undying' ability for that attack. To me, that would still be a good item but not so completely broken.

Galdred said:

We just put a big dice under the figure. Easy.

Balanced weapons are soo lame. Im risking my life in a dungeon, fight my way trough the beastman horde, barely making it trough alive. In the room i find a chest. Opening it, I pull out...A magic item!.....in all its glory! carfully balanced against all the other magical items in the dungeon. All equal and fair, you might as well had drawn any other item. This dungeon is for hippies dude.

This isnt about holding hands.

Sometimes its fun to get beat on because somebody risked his life to get to that chest and got lucky and drew this so-called `broken´ weapon. I know the players will be happy..and will feel like their efforts have finally paid off. they will wield it with impuntiy and with a smug smile on their face. But your turn will come, you have aces up your sleeve too. And your turn to dominate as Overlord will come. In the mean time try and minimize the damage. Maybe you shouldnt spent threat on monsters that dont have the undying ability right now to be a little bit more cost/effective and take at least part of their advantage away. Then when you´ve grown in power Crushing Blow that thing. If Heroes whine about that they probably should be growing pastures and sheep playing Agricola. They should be fighting for their lives. More important, they should be enjoying that!

Once Heroes start to dominate the overlord and the game hands you a tool to `balance` that (cb) , don´t be afraid to use that. Why go on and on about crushing blow saying ah its so mean... you´re an Overlord!!!! The game hands you moments of achivement and accomplishments but it isnt about dominating eachother until the end that would be boring. If you´re not willing to use the tools the game gives you, which includes CB, then your simply being a boring, lame overlord who is not giving them a challenge.

Crush Them. They will thank you for it. It´s exciting that way.

Paul Grogan said:

I was one that advised the creature upgrade and would give the same advice again in a heartbeat - even if you are playing a humanoid favouring Avatar (though I believe that these are the worst Avatars by far because of the weaknesses of Humanoids).

It is tough luck that you got probably the worst nasty combo (for at least the first half - the Rapid Fire/Gauntlets combo takes a lot of resources to be effective) against you in week 1, before you could accumulate the resources to deal with it. Landrec + Spiritwalker+ Staff of the Grave is as good as it gets for the heroes! I also note that you haven't had much luck with seige rolls. A town or two down and your income starts increasing noticeably.

Definitely your next buy should be a event treachery, although a Master Dark Elf might be able to do a number for you if you can find one in a dungeon.

Staff of the Grave is certainly a very powerful device, but except for the unfortunate circumstance you are in the Curse is a reasonably powerful balance to it. Normally mages are relatively easy to kill and many are only worth 2 CT, so a 50% increase in CT value every time you kill it can really hurt the heroes. If you are killing the mage once or twice per dungeon (not level) then the heroes will rarely have the time/money/opportunity to rid themselves of the curses and that extra CT will really stack up over a campaign. If you were an Eldritch or Beast favouring OL then you could still fairly easily take out Landrec with your new Silver monsters either through speed or ranged attacks. As it is you will probably need to rely on some cleverness. A nicely placed crushing block can provide good close in spawning and there is always the option of having Landrec shoot himself!

It does sound like you are going to go down badly in this campaign though. Your heroes seem to have cash and CT aplenty, particularly cash, and cash is usually IME(xperience) the limiting factor for the Heroes. Your best bet would seem to be to accumulate some treachery and do a Tamalir-smash in either early Silver or early Gold with all the Lieutenants together (but you will want some upgraded monsters for that as well - I'd advise beasts despite the extra cost for Soaring flyers in the Lieutenant encounters.

timeLESS said:

I don't agree with that at all. Some luck is needed to force you to plan ahead, and keep some surprise in the game, but completely broken combos (like rapid fire + gauntlets) makes the game completely stupid (an archer with master archer and the gauntlets can kill every monster in range in advance mode).

We could as well just roll a dice to decide the winner. Some balance is needed as these skills/items were probably never intended for such a combo, and turn the game into a bore fest. Same goes for crushing blow: in the hands of a event heavy OL, it is a no brainer, and it is completely overpowering:

Heroes will get about 3 chests/dungeon, averaging 12 die rolls=2 items. So with 2 crushing blows in your deck, you suppress all the items the heroes get in a dungeon, for a ridiculously cheap threat and treachery cost. It is not a challenge, it is just boring game mechanics abuse (CB was designed before road to legend, so the cost does not reflect its effectiveness at all).

It is not even limited to destroying OP objects, if you use it in a LT encounter, it allows you yo strip a hero of his armor, making the card much better than critical strike.

CB is needed to keep the hero stuff in check, but it needs to be toned down, as it is a complete no brainer in its current state: the only strategic decision is not wether to take it or not, but on which item to use it.

Staff of the grave is ok indeed: Landrec at 3 conquest is easy XP for the OL

Paul Grogan said:

I agree about the need to rebalance some items (especially the ones from tomb of ice... not being able to use surge is meaningless when the item is as good as another copper one with 6 surges...).

But for the staff itself, 2 surges for 2 damages would be pretty weak compared to the other copper staff (1 damage /surge is better than 2 for 2), and not worth a curse. I think it is ok as it is now, but it could be too strong in the hand of a tank mage (Varikas with magic trait upgrade, or battlemage Jaes). I like the 2 surge to kill and undying idea.

Concerning the refund on CB, it was to make it weaker than a dark relic or frost at hitting the heros' ressources. Even then, the OL used it about every time he could (that is, at 2 treachery and 75% refund). Thematically, the heroes go back to the smithy with the broken weapon and argue with him about his bad work as the weapon broke down so soon after buying bought. Currently, in our game, the only thing limiting CB is that we use a discard pile for the treachery cards: once a treachery card has been used, it stays in the discard until it reaches 10 cards. At this time, all of the cards are recovered.

Once the heroes get out of league with copper monsters, there is little you can do, but in order to get faster XP to upgrade, you should focus on the following: use CB on heavily armored targets, and finish them with a ferrox spawn if available: these nasty can each inflict a white dice ignoring armor, which kicks in during the heroes turn (thus making him waste his turn as he is killed during his activation).

1 beastman spawn is enough to kill the mage, use aim/rage to be sure, and gust of wind if you really have too. Razorwings are good too. Once you can upgrade one category to silver, you'll look at your heroes differently

timeLESS said:

Sorry - I couldnt disagree more. Yes the heroes have to work hard to get a reward - and that reward is a magic item. Yes, some items are a little better than others, but they should really all be roughly the same power. That is why there are copper, silver and gold. The silver should be better than copper and so on.

If we take your thought process through to the extreme, you would include a treasure card which says "End the campaign now, the heroes win".

Yes that would indeed be taking what i said, and then pushing it much much further. Which ends up not being what i said in the first place but rather something you make of it. Something pretty much opposed to the point im trying to make.

My point is that this game is about fighting your way trough dungeons. This in itself is supposed to be exciting. Fighting is exciting when you're not sure you make it trough and when you make it trough against the odds. Fighting is lame when you know you will make it trough whatever you do. When the game hands you a moment of reward for making it trough a tough spot (treasure) and hands you a powerful item. This is cool for the heroes. For a while. You say taking my point to the extreme would be a card. you win. Thats bllshit and a strawman. Why? because i keep saying that this game is about fighting against adversary. A card saying "you win" is not that. at all.

Now a reward is cool only if its not exactly like every other reward. Otherwise we wouldnt care. But we do care because there's some powerful stuff in those decks and that is COOL. players dig it. As an overlord, it challenges me. again a powerful item does not end the game. If you think it does, you are a cry baby. A powerful item merely gives the players some reward for the risk they have taken. it pays off.

Then if you would have read my previous post more carefully instead of taking small parts out of their context , I also said that the game gives you something to take that reward away. So If we would take my previous post, and then change it into something entirely different and out of context, like you did, it could also end up like this: Players take risk. The risk might be rewarded. The reward CAN be exciting and special precisely because the rewards are not always equal. The reward can be "YOU WIN THE GAME" "UNLESS the Overlord chooses to not to give up that easily and use the tools the game gives you to find a solution to his current problem" . Remember this is a game for the Overlord too. If I play agricola and refuse to take WOOD i loose the game. Every game works like that. Yet with this game it looks to me like people take a lot of Roleplaying game bagage, and Overlords refuse to take actions because they feel its somehow unfair to CB some stuff. This means you loose. You will loose and 80 hour game and its boring because you're not willing to play the options the game gives you.

So as you might have noticed, i as an Overlord am down with the players getting "broken" items and feeling all tough for awhile. Its only for a while and there's actions i can take to work with that. Getting super items is only broken when there are no superactions for an Overlord to take, and as i had written in my previous post I was arguing for Overlords to USE those options. They are not the only ones with high-powered stuff. If the players all draw weak items, it saves you some threat with which you can buy other cards better suited for the situation. You can adapt to what happens in the game.

Look i might sound a bit harsh, but i really feel like a lot of people play this game using that Agricola logic i was talking about above. This is a competetive game , not a nice story of people in a dungeon.

Two games ago. I crushed the Heroes in the second room they peeked at. Slaughtered them. They were like "**** so its really over huh? " i was like yes it appears I have won. You wanna try again next time? Yes sure they said. Next time we played, they were so excited and thrilled troughout the dungeon, because they KNEW that this was for real. If they'd mess up, game end. This makes their actions matter. This makes for excitement.

Anyway. im starting to ramble. Don't take the things i say personal, its the internet after all, and i know that above all else, you should play the way that gives you the most fun out of the game.

take care

Fair enough, you make a good point and yes, I did take your previous example too far.

However, what has happened in my game is that on level 1 of dungeon 1 the players found the best item in the game. No challenge, no tough fights, no nothing. They just got really lucky right from the start with a great character / skill / equipment combo. There was no feeling of success because they hadnt done anything.

Also, if now I am completely forced down a path of having to buy certain cards in order to deal with a certain situation, I think that is wrong. This is nothing like "taking wood in Agricola", unless of course you are saying that in every game every OL always has to take CB.

My limited knowledge of RtL is that the OL has options. Buy Lt's, buy upgrades, upgrade monsters, buy treachery, etc. Lots of options. However, from what I am hearing is that you can do that ok until the group get a 'broken' magic item, at which point it is time to take CB.

Despite my personal feelings, I dont think I have much choice. Unless I do choose to rebalance some of the items (or just remove the stupid staff), buying CB is my only way of dealing with the situation.

I now just need 15XP to buy the treachery, and then wait for the opportunity to turn up.

Timeless, I think the problem with CB is indeed that the overlord needs to refrain himself from using it in the RAW, or it turns into a no brainer way to victory as it is way overpowered. Everytime the OL does not use it, he is behaving like a gamemaster, because there is nothing that would come close in effectiveness (as it is a guaranteed success, and not only do you destroy the most powerful items, but you quickly reduce the heros' ressources to nothing). The only counter to crushing blow is to be so lucky on treasure rolls that you get much more than average items/chest, otherwise, it automatically lowers the heros' ressource in dungeon by 50%, for only 2 green treachery. Using it only to remove unbalanced item IS going easy on the heroes, it should be used at every possible occasion.

CB needs to be toned down, so that it is not a card you always select, and you don't need to play "gamemaster" in order to keep it in check.

Fair enough. It most certainly sounds like you have had some bad luck as an overlord.

I shouldnt have compared with taking wood in Agricola, perhaps i should've said stone in that it isnt the thing you ALWAYS need to take to win, but does often get you there. It's a stupid comparison on my part anyways, because the games are really nothing alike. It was useful to get across a point i was trying to make, but the comparison fails to offer us much substantial after that point.

There are times in every game in which there is only one right response to a given situation. I think what bothers you is that you didnt get to that point because of your (and you opponents) conscious descision of taking the game there, but you were forced there by chance. Therefore it must probably feel rather sour to hit that note before pretty much any choices have been made. Now this i understand much better, and right now i wonder why i didnt spot this sooner (if this is indeed what bothers you about the situation). Nevertheless CB might break this situation and open up more "freedom" of strategy after.

I am not myself yet convinced of "broken" items, skills and familiars and such and our group is okay with crushing blow. I might be convinced of the Bow-Combo, but i havent seen it in action yet.

Also im not entirely clear on your current problems in the Campaign. What precisely is causing you so much trouble right now, that makes you feel that this isnt leaving you any room for choice?

Also how are you using Crushing Blow? I have seen two ways people use it.

1: Crush any item players are carrying ( wether equipped or in pack )

2: Crush any EQUIPPED item, not those in pack.

My group plays 1, but i have seen and been in a game that uses option 2. It was strangely fun, and might solve some problems you have with it but relies a lot on groupthink too.

take care

Anyway, when adding house rules, you need everyone to agree on these. As it has been pointed out, it is no RPG, so you are not allowed to unilaterally change rules mid game (well, if you are the game owner, you can, but it would be rude). I'd advise you to abuse crushing blow, and then accept a compromise to tone it down, and negotiate some other change (like nerfing the guantlets of infinite firepower+rapid fire)

Question: can a character continue to use Rapid Fire (assuming enough fatigue remains) even if the character rolls a miss?

If yes, then Landrec using ranged weapons + Master Archer + Gauntlets is indeed an infinite combo and if you don’t have the Descent expansions to add a crushing Blow…

Indeed, the gauntlets and rapid fire combo allows you to attack indefinitely.

Limiting Rapid Fire to one extra attack per normal attack still makes it a great skill, but nowhere near "Okay, dear OL, you can stop playing now".

When playing a game as complex as Descent, there is bound to be some arguments. All disagreements within our group are resolved democratically and normally without incident. There are some times however, when tempers flare and voices become raised. Thus here is a nice house rule we chose:

Anyone who (during a disagreement) cannot control his/her temper or will not accept the democratic solution has two options:

1. They may leave

or

2. They may wear the stupid hat. This is usually an empty beer 12 pack box, or something ridiculous we can find around the house.

I have had to wear the stupid hat more than a few times, and it works.

Earth Wyrm Jim said:

Speaking of the stupid hat.....

flickr.com/photos/oboewan/3119005790/

Took that on the flight back from BoardGameGeek.Con in Dallas.... it applies