1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

This can not be overstated!
That is his way to "point fortress", that's the new thing he brings, and that's why he won't be even remotely OP - because it just does. not. work. against some lists. At all, with 0% chance.

It's why I think he's best thinking of as 'new Whisper' not 'new Soontir', as like the Phantom he's so dependent on being top dog with his PS. It's also handy that his cost is more appropriate to Whisper than Soontir, so comparison is a bit easier.

• Kylo Ren (35) + Advanced Sensors (3) + Push The Limit (3) + Autothrusters (2) + 2pt bid (2) + Title (2) = 47pts

For that money you can get an IG with Advanced/PTL/Autothrusters, 2 more hull, a free Evade token, an Ion Cannon and gunner. I've not found a single competitive ship you can compare Kylo to and have him look anything other than overcosted or understatted.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's why I think he's best thinking of as 'new Whisper' not 'new Soontir', as like the Phantom he's so dependent on being top dog with his PS. It's also handy that his cost is more appropriate to Whisper than Soontir, so comparison is a bit easier.

• Kylo Ren (35) + Advanced Sensors (3) + Push The Limit (3) + Autothrusters (2) + 2pt bid (2) + Title (2) = 47pts

For that money you can get an IG with Advanced/PTL/Autothrusters, 2 more hull, a free Evade token, an Ion Cannon and gunner. I've not found a single competitive ship you can compare Kylo to and have him look anything other than overcosted or understatted.

Well, if we pretend that R2D2 is not glued to Corran, PTL, Adv. Sensors, R2 astromech and EU Corran is similar.

46 points.

Kylo is 45. What do you trade for what?

- A better dial (even with r2 astro, the silencer has more greens) with extra moves and whatnot.

- A higher PS.

- More HP.

- A free mod on your dice, until you decide to re-roll all your greens, potentially saving your ***.

- AT.

But, you lose the ability to double tap, but Corran's double tap is quite costly, and you can dish out similarly powerful effects, although less reliably with ISYTDS.

And you are a point cheaper.

I mean... doesn't seem that bad to me. And you know, maybe FFG comes to their senses and the Empire gets regen sooner or later. We got turrets too.

8 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Well, if we pretend that R2D2 is not glued to Corran, PTL, Adv. Sensors, R2 astromech and EU Corran is similar.

46 points.

Kylo is 45. What do you trade for what?

- A better dial (even with r2 astro, the silencer has more greens) with extra moves and whatnot.

- A higher PS.

- More HP.

- A free mod on your dice, until you decide to re-roll all your greens, potentially saving your ***.

- AT.

But, you lose the ability to double tap, but Corran's double tap is quite costly, and you can dish out similarly powerful effects, although less reliably with ISYTDS.

And you are a point cheaper.

I mean... doesn't seem that bad to me. And you know, maybe FFG comes to their senses and the Empire gets regen sooner or later. We got turrets too.

Sure. But then would you play that Corran without R2-D2? No, because sinking 45pts into an ace that's gonna die is a bad idea.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Sure. But then would you play that Corran without R2-D2? No, because sinking 45pts into an ace that's gonna die is a bad idea.

I just simply try and prove that the problem is not with the Ship itself. We have seen worse ships do better.

The problem of this game is not bad ships (well, except my chubby love the Punisher), but **** upgrades for Imperials . We have l ess upgrades, less slots, and less ways to combo them .

Would an Imperial PRS break the game? Of course not. We would just have access to the same toys as rebels, and that would piss some people off.

Juts imagine a 2 pts upgrade that is a better Advanced Sensors. It gives you an extra action, allows you to do it before the maneuver, and it can proc PTL. That's BB-8. Seriously, it can turn an ARC-170 into an agile ship.

I really hope the rebels don't get a System-Tech-Astromech combo in the future, because that would be batshit insane.

So, there is no need to make the Silencer more powerful. It is already very powerful. We just need to level the playing field. Give poor imperials the same toys as you do with Rebels and Scum.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And you think Soontir can't dodge 4 hits per shot? vs LW/Rey Dash he's a 90% chance to take no damage at all, and that's only until Dash runs out of Rey focus... and if Dash ever stops running Soontir just gets into his donut hole (which TBF both Soontir & Kylo can do).

I picked Dash/Miranda because I think it's actually an example where Kylo doesn't come off too badly against Soontir as he still gets Autothrusters. Make it a PS11 Harpoon from Vader or Quickdraw and Kylo's looking even worse, while Soontir at least has a chance with his 4 green dice and Evade token (60% chance of taking no damage and avoiding the Harpoon, vs 6% for Kylo).

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

He gets a focus he needs to use to defend or he gets blatted by 4 dice with good mods from Miranda or a 4 die then a 3 die TLT, or a 4 die HLC, or both. He needs the token to not die in almost any situation.

I've been a little unconvinced by Kylo myself. The idea of him as a point fortress when he can take spike damage and he can't regen really doesn't convince me.

ASPTL plus green turns is gonna be insane, but I'm concerned he just won't be that good. He's not that much harder to kill than a non-x7 defender, and even with autothrusters, overwhelming them with dice isn't that tough.

cool, but Soontir is blockable. Kylo is not.

33 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Corran is similar

It was my immediate reaction, too. Kylo even gets sort-of-a double tap via blinded pilot.

But the lack of regen and the amazing greens is so important that their similarity is maybe smaller than the differences...

17 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

So, there is no need to make the Silencer more powerful. It is already very powerful. We just need to level the playing field. Give poor imperials the same toys as you do with Rebels and Scum.

That's also very important to be heard.

We have incredibly skewed perception by now. Kylo is good!
But we compare him - naturally - to the dominant brokenness that was dominating their time - Whisper/Mynockspecial, Palpaces, Triplescouts, Dengaroo, DengarTel, Parattanni, Denym, Miranda-X.
And here he gets also clearly left behind. I'd bet that he won't reach such dominance.

36 minutes ago, Cerve said:

cool, but Soontir is blockable. Kylo is not.

True, but if Kylo spent his actions avoiding being blocked then he's just as vulnerable as if he had been blocked.

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

True, but if Kylo spent his actions avoiding being blocked then he's just as vulnerable as if he had been blocked.

Nope, he has PTL. He can take 1 focus as well

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

True, but if Kylo spent his actions avoiding being blocked then he's just as vulnerable as if he had been blocked.

It's not about avoiding getting blocked. It's about not giving a rat's *** whether you get blocked or not. What would be a potentially disastrous turn for Soontir might actually be a very good one for Kylo.

11 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

It's not about avoiding getting blocked. It's about not giving a rat's *** whether you get blocked or not. What would be a potentially disastrous turn for Soontir might actually be a very good one for Kylo.

If Kylo is fat enough. Kylo+PTL+AS+AO+Title+AT is only 47. Many are gushing about VI+FCS, which is even 3pt less. And we can expect many to fly PrimedT instead of AdvOptics, making him 46pt.

That's not fat enough for "not giving a rat's ***"

15 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

It's not about avoiding getting blocked. It's about not giving a rat's *** whether you get blocked or not. What would be a potentially disastrous turn for Soontir might actually be a very good one for Kylo.

Honestly, Greendragon and SotL are not going to change their mind until he starts winning (Greendragon might actually change his mind SotL will just say he was right but this is due to some other reason).

'proven'?

I'm not really interested in any 'OP' discussion because that's a very subjective matter. I'll lay down an objective marker, if you like: Kylo won't be any more successful than Poe has been. I think they're very comparable in terms of power level, as they're both B-grade pilots who are good enough at a local level but can't really deliver on the big stage when it gets hard.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

'proven'?

I'm not really interested in any 'OP' discussion because that's a very subjective matter. I'll lay down an objective marker, if you like: Kylo won't be any more successful than Poe has been. I think they're very comparable in terms of power level, as they're both B-grade pilots who are good enough at a local level but can't really deliver on the big stage when it gets hard.

BB8 intensity Poe is a veery solid comparison actually, both in points, in block avoidance, in utility, and in power level.

And he's good, but he's not winning big events.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

Honestly, Greendragon and SotL are not going to change their mind until he starts winning. They seem to both thrive on defining what is and is not OP. Even when proven wrong they ignore this and just blame something else.

Ok, wow.

I admitted every time when I was wrong. I do not remember that you have proven anything about Kylo though.

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

'proven'?

I'm not really interested in any 'OP' discussion because that's a very subjective matter. I'll lay down an objective marker, if you like: Kylo won't be any more successful than Poe has been. I think they're very comparable in terms of power level, as they're both B-grade pilots who are good enough at a local level but can't really deliver on the big stage when it gets hard.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

BB8 intensity Poe is a veery solid comparison actually, both in points, in block avoidance, in utility, and in power level.

And he's good, but he's not winning big events.

This rings true to me. I think Advanced Optics will give most Poe builds a significant boost, though.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ok, wow.

I admitted every time when I was wrong. I do not remember that you have proven anything about Kylo though.

I actually edited before you quoted to point to SotL as the one who fails to admit he is wrong. Of course I haven't proven anything about Kylo and neither have you... He is not even released yet. Both sides of this need to chill out this guy isn't even out yet.

I think he will be good, not meta warping but immediately jumping into the A/S tier. You do not, and that is fine. I have seen him played both on vassal and in person by very good players but that's all I have to go on. We will not have anything "Proof" until January most likely.

Also to be clear, when I am talking about Kylo I am talking about him and the ps7.

I browsed the last 3 pages of the thread and something confuses me: why are most of the builds focusing on keeping Kylo at PS 9? I mean sure, he can be very manoeuverable with PTL and advanced sensors and such, but there a lot of popular ships out there that are PS 10 - 11 and can reposition:

- Nym (Rebel and Scum)

- Vader

- Quickdraw

- Torani (I'll try him, not sure if he'll be popular yet)

Most of those options can deal a lot of damage and all of them are cheaper. I'll be curious as to how it all works out in the end. The meta will shift a whole lot, that's for sure.

15 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I think he will be good, not meta warping but immediately jumping into the A/S tier. You do not, and that is fine. I have seen him played both on vassal and in person by very good players but that's all I have to go on. We will not have anything "Proof" until January most likely.

Hold your horses. I just went through the thread again to see why you think that.

I say that he has two problems that make him "not OP". And you clearly missed - on this page no less - when I said:
"We have incredibly skewed perception by now. Kylo is good ! But we compare him - naturally - to the dominant brokenness that was dominating their time [...] I'd bet that he won't reach such dominance."

Specifically, to summarize my argument, he has weakness in both offense and defense. That's important because most other ships we compare him to are really really good at at least one of those two.
He is a very new type of point fortress - one that's actually not unfair. He has neither token stack, regen nor high HP. Instead he has superb arcdodging. Which only works against 30% of all used ships during US+Canadian+Australian nationals! 70% of ships were arc-independent!

Offense: He gets 3-4 red dice depending on range. But he is relatively action starved because he does not get additional actions as useful as Soontir, Poe, Inq, Whisper. He only has his title to get a single reroll. So his expected output against 0 agility is 1.9 or 2.5 for range 2-3/1. A focus pushes that to 2.7 and 3.5. That's barely better than a normal 3dice attack because every ship can focus. So clearly his strong suit is NOT offense.

Defense: he 'only' has his 3 greens and Autothrusters. The lack of evade means he can't token-stack, meaning he will slowly take damage against the pretty common 4+ dice attacks. He also has no regen, or high HP (6 is ok but not high). So he relies on arcdodging to prevent damage. That has three major problems: 1) it very, very likely uses at least one action for that, and 2) only works against ships that need their arc, and 3) he will use his actions before he performed his maneuver to clear the PTLstress. 1) means he's action starved and at best gets the numbers I mentioned above. 2) means he only works against 30% of all ships used at the mentioned Nationals. Granted, that number will go up. But it can as easily go down again as reaction to Kylo! 3) means he will be very, very susceptible to mistakes. And to repeat one argument I made - the PAX finals were almost decided by a close call in flying. Such mistakes happen on all levels.

He doesn't shine in either category as previously dominant ships did.

Do these weaknesses make him a bad ship? No! And I did not say it will. Instead I repeatedly said that he is good. But is not that good. He won't break the game. I would call him A-tier, and I agree with the comparison to Poe.

18 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Defense: he 'only' has his 3 greens and Autothrusters. The lack of evade means he can't token-stack, meaning he will slowly take damage against the pretty common 4+ dice attacks. He also has no regen, or high HP (6 is ok but not high). So he relies on arcdodging to prevent damage. That has three major problems: 1) it very, very likely uses at least one action for that, and 2) only works against ships that need their arc, and 3) he will use his actions before he performed his maneuver to clear the PTLstress. 1) means he's action starved and at best gets the numbers I mentioned above. 2) means he only works against 30% of all ships used at the mentioned Nationals. Granted, that number will go up. But it can as easily go down again as reaction to Kylo! 3) means he will be very, very susceptible to mistakes. And to repeat one argument I made - the PAX finals were almost decided by a close call in flying. Such mistakes happen on all levels.

1) He doesn't rely solely on arc dodging to prevent damage

2)thats just not true. With adsensors and auto thrusters he can 100% make sure he is not getting shot by Fat turrets and TLTs and if he is he takes little to no damage.

3) That is also not true. With a five straight green he can bail out if he has to move after he moves if the player wants.

the PAX finals WERE decided by a close call in flying. Not almost. If Fenn had PTL Adsensors, do you believe he would have been blocked?

He is very different to Poe. Even if he wasn't, Poe is poised to be competitive again as well IMO.

In the end, I am pretty much done debating this. This is purely head sim it seems on your part, and I only have limited information myself. Debating this right now is just going in circles.

people are still fixed on how squishy nonx7 defenders are.

Key differences between nonx7 defenders and silencers:
1) Defenders go straight. Silencers go all over the place. Thus, defenders are easier to catch
2) Tech/systemslot offers a LOT of force the Defender cannot get.
3) Silencer has a PS11 option, Defenders max at 10 (and Brath is HORRIBLE without Expertise so more like max at 9 with Stele)

Even x7 defenders are laughably easy to predict and shoot at, the free evade and white 4k just makes them tanky enough to generally not care.

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

people are still fixed on how squishy nonx7 defenders are.

Key differences between nonx7 defenders and silencers:
1) Defenders go straight. Silencers go all over the place. Thus, defenders are easier to catch
2) Tech/systemslot offers a LOT of force the Defender cannot get.
3) Silencer has a PS11 option, Defenders max at 10 (and Brath is HORRIBLE without Expertise so more like max at 9 with Stele)

Even x7 defenders are laughably easy to predict and shoot at, the free evade and white 4k just makes them tanky enough to generally not care.

eh, maneuverability doesn't mean **** to turrets. That's kinda a problem with the entire game in general, but it's extra applicable to less-durable-than-x7 Silencers which are also a LOT more expensive when fully kited out

the only time thrusters overtake a free evade is when defending against multiple attacks (ala TLT). This means Silencers more vulnerable to stuff like palp Cheri or HLC Dash, Cheri being especially bad because crew Kylo really **** over expensive ships.

the only big thing that the Silencer gets over the x7 is primed thrusters giving some great fallback against tact wookies and stress in general.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

1) He doesn't rely solely on arc dodging to prevent damage

Of course not, but when compared to the other ships he does. He's no Soontir to stack up at 4 agility, he's no Corran/Poe to stack+regen, he's no Miranda to regen+highHP. Of course they all have green dice, too. But Kylo's speciality is to arcdodge. Without that he's as tanky as a Defender without x7, and we all know how that works unless you're Biophysical.

4 minutes ago, Timathius said:

2)thats just not true. With adsensors and auto thrusters he can 100% make sure he is not getting shot by Fat turrets and TLTs and if he is he takes little to know damage.

Yes he can get into donut holes - where there are often bombs unless it's Dash, so good luck with that. Yes he can get out of range if we wants to, yes he can constantly bump. But the rest of your squad won't, and then you lose anyway? What do you mean by "100% make sure he's not getting shot" ? That he evades the attack? Because that's not the same.
Non-arcs include 180° and Shadowcasters. Liberators will hit him with 46% chance, probably stressing him in the process, too. And that's against a focus which he then can't spend on offense, weakening him even more there, otherwise the chance increases to 73%.

16 minutes ago, Timathius said:

3) That is also not true. With a five straight green he can bail out if he has to move after he moves if the player wants.

the PAX finals WERE decided by a close call in flying. Not almost. If Fenn had PTL Adsensors, do you believe he would have been blocked?

That's a non-argument unless you want to tell me that he will usually move in 5straights. Usually he won't move in 5straight greens, and usually he will take his actions before he moves. Yes there is a huge amount of options where he can end up. But how many of them eat both actions? Most do, which cuts into his offense, but you seem to agree on at least that much.

The point is that mistakes happen on the highest level. Do you believe PTLAdvS prevents all flying mistakes? Repositioning has the great advantage to correct a mistake, twice even with PTL.
But pre-movement repositioning, as with AdvS is exactly as error prone as a normal movement, because you only guess where you will end up. You just don't know.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Snip

Whatever you say bud. Like I said, I am done.

Seriously, ASPTL Kylo is just asking to be PSed to death by VI RAC/VI QD. RAC with Palp gets into raange 1, has to roll dramatically sub average to not get all hits and at least one crit, not Kylo has to roll perfectly or he's ltaking damage at best, and it's probably a crit. Triggering the Harpooned condition that QD already tagged him with previously, which does a damage to RAC (ONOES) but has a decent chance of already killing Kylo.

I suspect I might end up trying Kylo a few times and then going back to RACDraw or RAC Vader because QD has missiles.

Gonna have to bite the bullet and ebay me a Palp though.

Just now, Timathius said:

Whatever you say bud. Like I said, I am done.

I also asked my self why I'm even replying. At this point it looks like you're just contrary for the sake of being contrary.
You keep saying that I think Kylo to be bad, when I repeatedly wrote that I think he is good.