On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:28 AM, BadMotivator said:

Yeah, there was a good level of minimum skill required to fly Palp aces. Fat-turrets literally just require you to not hit rocks or fly off the board. And even hitting a rock isn't the end of the world. If Fel hit a rock he was dead.

There need to be negatives for shooting out of arc.

It's really telling that the only arc dodger to make it to the final table at Worlds was pre-nerf Whisper. Fel or vader never made it even with Palp at full strength. Meanwhile turreted ships have pretty consistently made top table at worlds for the past few years.

I can see why people hate arc dodgers sometimes though. It can create a real negative play experience when you feel like you literally have no way to win when it comes down to Fel, Whisper or Vader in the endgame. Flying against Dash/Miranda is equally frustrating tho.

Yeah, I can see how it could be frustrating. But so will flying anything against a more skilled player. And at least when you are facing Soontir you weren't getting punished for your failure. He didn't annhilate you in one pass, he took his time and chipped away at you. So while frustrating, you would have plenty of chances to catch him.

11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Getting safely into range 1 without being blocked will often require at least one reposition, crippling his offense compared to the other ships you mentioned

Getting blocked is a W in Kylo’s book. You still get your actions with AdvS and there’s also one fewer ship shooting at you. What’s not to love?

I think his offense will be sufficient. Miranda, Nym, Dash...they’re not hard to hit, and Kylo can beat them on defense. Fenn isn’t a problem as long as you can move after him; at Range 2, he folds. QuickDraw isn’t hard to hit. If Fel comes back, there’ll be trouble hitting him, but he’ll also have trouble damaging you. I think Vader is the only actual problem, and that’s where your wingman comes in.

21 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Fel or vader never made it even with Palp at full strength.

Obligatory comment about Vader winning 2012 Worlds...

(which is veeeeeeery relevant cus it was such a huge tournament...)

Best I can figure for a list:

Kylencer: Ptl, Primed Thrusters, Authothrusters, AdvSensors.

RAC: Predator, Darth Vader, EU.

Probably a terrible list.

Yep, Kylo is a poor Deci partner.

I'm only through page 2 of this and the amount of ridiculousness is insufferable.

We really have people complaining about single arc ships becoming viable again. No, I'm serious. Go read back through all of page 2 here. It's entirely consumed by people lamenting the fact that a single arc ship might just be good enough to avoid shot and stay alive long enough to be relevant.

This entire game, the ENTIRE GAME, was built on the premise that you are simulating dog fights in space where movement, planning, and precision ar key.

My mind is completely boggled at what I'm reading right now. I'm getting further convinced that this isn't the game, nor community, I fell in love with 3 years ago.

2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

It's really telling that the only arc dodger to make it to the final table at Worlds was pre-nerf Whisper. Fel or vader never made it even with Palp at full strength. Meanwhile turreted ships have pretty consistently made top table at worlds for the past few years.

I can see why people hate arc dodgers sometimes though. It can create a real negative play experience when you feel like you literally have no way to win when it comes down to Fel, Whisper or Vader in the endgame. Flying against Dash/Miranda is equally frustrating tho.

That is because they are arcdodgers, too. Back in wave 2, before people figured out how good large base boost was, you could point your guns at a falcon and have it go down. Once EU became the norm, that was much harder.

Turrets aren't much fun, but when they aren't overly efficient (looking at you TLT Y-Wing before you got powercreeped) they are fine. Arcdodgers aren't much fun to play against (and for me to play, having all the reactive tools just isn't appealing), but when they need to point their arc at you they lose at least some shots when they need to weasel out. Also they can't be too efficient or outplaying them won't be rewarded enough for how much harder you have to work than them. Arc-dodging turrets though? Get out with that, those will never be balanced. It is just way too easy to stay out of your opponents arcs using repositioning when you don't care about your facing.

15 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Kylo is a good 3pts overcosted (+9pts on base is crazy for such a weak pilot ability). You get those points back if you take Blackout, but I'm not sure that he's better than QD once he's kitted out.

15 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

If that's not the most available ending positions in the game, I don't know what is.

• Sabine Wren
  • Sabine's Masterpiece
  • Push The Limit
  • Kanan Jarrus
  • Cloaking Device
  • Engine Upgrade

....What? You asked.

We had this little nightmare in a furball the other week. Decloak plus boost and barrel roll before or after any white move on a TIE fighter's dial, or one boost or barrel roll before any red one.

14 hours ago, Icelom said:

No list can afford to spend almost half its list to do 3 unmodified dice worth of damage.

Indeed. This is why Trick Shot "Blackout" appeals to me more - it's not a case of 'arc dodge like a loony', it's a case of "snipe-from-debris-clouds-and-deliver-what's-essentially-a-heavy-laser-cannon-shot" (4 red dice versus no range 3 bonus on the green dice) but carried on a platform that's rolling 5 green dice with autothrusters against return fire.

It's a much different approach to the Pilot skill a million arc dodgers, but it strikes me (at first impression) as a very sensible and achievable one - not least because Blackout is a lot cheaper than Kylo and the cards which empower this approach (trick shot, collision detector, primed thrusters, autothrusters) are all cheap or even free...

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yep, Kylo is a poor Deci partner.

He's a poor RAC partner. But you can build a decent Oicunn with 54 points.

ISYTDS on Ps9 Kylo is amazing, why there still people who don't get it?

You MUST take down Kylo in early game, or he will shred you in late game. And that means get PS0 or no attacks early.

Kylo is well costed, maybe even a little bit undercost if I have to be honest.

40 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

He's a poor RAC partner. But you can build a decent Oicunn with 54 points.

It's as much that the only really strong Deci builds at the moment are based on Kylo crew, which you lose.

But you also change the dynamic, because as a wingman the Silencer doesn't threaten a lot of damage so the opponent can ignore it and just pummel the Deci. I think an Isard/Kenkirk Deci might be your best hope for surviving long enough to allow Kylo to do work.

10 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's as much that the only really strong Deci builds at the moment are based on Kylo crew, which you lose.

But you also change the dynamic, because as a wingman the Silencer doesn't threaten a lot of damage so the opponent can ignore it and just pummel the Deci. I think an Isard/Kenkirk Deci might be your best hope for surviving long enough to allow Kylo to do work.

My thought is a Palp/Ion Projector Oicunn. Then if you can block a small ship once, it just never does anything again, and you can grind it to death.

Big 'if' though.

12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

My thought is a Palp/Ion Projector Oicunn. Then if you can block a small ship once, it just never does anything again, and you can grind it to death.

Big 'if' though.

It's a cute trick, but I think people know about it now. And it's a lot of wasted points against any large ship squad.

4 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

Getting blocked is a W in Kylo’s book. You still get your actions with AdvS and there’s also one fewer ship shooting at you. What’s not to love?

It was actually in the post you quoted:

"Even worse - he will usually want to do this before his green movement to clear the stress. But that leaves no room to correct a misjudged movement/arc."

It is not to love that you give away your ability to react after your maneuver. And again, before we go all elitist here: it was just at PAX final table (or semifinal?) that a misjudged maneuver had a huge influence on the game. Obviously this happens, and if those guys make such mistakes then everyone does.

The second point here is that you also assume that Kylo gets into a 1v1. Such a 1v1 means one of two things:
either Kylo+X killed more than 53pt, meaning he is ahead anyway. Then yes, he will be happy to bump until time runs out. I believe though that a 2v1 is more common where Kylo is alone. A bump is still good - if he took his actions first. Otherwise it's disastrous.
or Kylo+X killed one ship in a 2-ship-list. Depends now which one, of course. Favorites are NymMiranda, DashMiranda, PoeDash, DashNym, KananLow, KananBiggs, ReyMiranda, DengarNym, DengarTel, DengarAssajj, DoubleShadowcaster, BosskKetsu/Assajj, RAClo+QD or Vader. If Kylo is 1v1 vs the cheaper one, then the same is true as I just said - he's happy to bump until time runs out. Otherwise though, if he is up against Dash, Nym, Kanan, Rey, ..., then he will have a problem and THEY are happy to force double repositioning to even get a shot while not having a token for the defense against their turrets.

And Autothrusters are great if you also have tokens. But alone... not so much

4 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

I think his offense will be sufficient. Miranda, Nym, Dash...they’re not hard to hit, and Kylo can beat them on defense. Fenn isn’t a problem as long as you can move after him; at Range 2, he folds. QuickDraw isn’t hard to hit. If Fel comes back, there’ll be trouble hitting him, but he’ll also have trouble damaging you. I think Vader is the only actual problem, and that’s where your wingman comes in.

IMO you're making the same mistake as @jagsba here: The meta is currently very fluid, and we just saw Duncan Howard win with Imps. Arcdodgers are very likely on their way back anyway. The timing, probably more by accident than careful planning of FFG, will make it look as if it is the Silencer who brings it back, when it is actually the changed circumstances like fewer bombs and less unblockable damage that allows them back in. So we should also expect more high agility ships in the future, partially because the Silencer will be everywhere, partially because the time is ripe for them to get into the game again.

Edit: huh, got distracted by work... So the second point here is that I really disagree on your examples.

Miranda regens a hit per turn, so she will die in what, 9 rounds? That's glacial!
Nym has 10HP and can block you with advanced sensors and PS10, just as easily as Kylo can others.
Dash can arcdodge you, and has his focus, and 10 health. That will take 5+ turns. Good luck against a HLC there if you don't want to constantly spend your actions on repositioning.
Fenn comes down to initiative.
QD has 3greens with a focus, and even if you hit you get shot twice. Also initiative. Also 6hp, so 12 turns on average to kill her if you have to reposition every turn. Otherwise, if you get the focus, you're down to 6.5 turns. Where you should make sure to arcdodge perfectly, because otherwise it takes her less time to take you down due to revenge shots.

Say you play against Miranda and Dash and they're hitting you with TLT & HLC.

Kylo takes approx 2 damage per turn, Soontir takes approx 0 damage per turn. Kylo's not a tougher Soontir, he's a much more vulnerable Soontir*.

* except against bombs and stuff like that

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Say you play against Miranda and Dash and they're hitting you with TLT & HLC.

Kylo takes approx 2 damage per turn, Soontir takes approx 0 damage per turn. Kylo's not a tougher Soontir, he's a much more vulnerable Soontir*.

* except against bombs and stuff like that

If you're playing against Dash miranda, Soontir is probably taking a damage per turn if the Dash player is playing Dash right. He should be scoring four hits per shot, every shot, and he should be either getting shots or blocking. Soontir loses that engagement quicker than Kylo, especially with Bomblets and Sabine around.

But why not both?

And you think Soontir can't dodge 4 hits per shot? vs LW/Rey Dash he's a 90% chance to take no damage at all, and that's only until Dash runs out of Rey focus... and if Dash ever stops running Soontir just gets into his donut hole (which TBF both Soontir & Kylo can do).

I picked Dash/Miranda because I think it's actually an example where Kylo doesn't come off too badly against Soontir as he still gets Autothrusters. Make it a PS11 Harpoon from Vader or Quickdraw and Kylo's looking even worse, while Soontir at least has a chance with his 4 green dice and Evade token (60% chance of taking no damage and avoiding the Harpoon, vs 6% for Kylo).

He can dodge 4 hits per shot. He's going to struggle to dodge all 3 shots he'll be taking and the bombs he'll have to avoid, and still get shots himself, and when he does they'll either be regenned or largely ignored with Rey/Lone Wolf/Countermeasures.

But ky feel is that Kylo's big weakness will be 4+ die shots. He's unable to get up to 4 evades, so well modded HLCs and ordnance will crush him. Palp Kylo Crew RAC in particular is a really challenging matchup, because Kylo will be taking crits or not getting shots by blocking. VI Hotshot Gunner Han is also going to be a solid counter.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

He can dodge 4 hits per shot. He's going to struggle to dodge all 3 shots he'll be taking and the bombs he'll have to avoid, and still get shots himself.

If Soontir turtles up he actually dodges all three attacks about 89% of the time, he pisses his way past Miranda's TLT like it's not even there. I think you may be forgetting just how JESUS OMG FFS WILL YOU JUST F***ING DIE annoying Soontir was to try and kill.

The bombs are real, though. And Kylo's weak against any attack, you don't need 4 dice. He's just going to ship a point or two of damage down pretty regularly if somebody can shoot at him. His defences are hugely based on never getting shot, and that's going to work really well against some lists but not at all against others.

It's not just the attacks soontir struggles with, it's the attacks and the bombs and doing enough damage whilst avoiding both to actually make any impact. He's likely to be rolling pure naked dice, because he needs to save all his tokens for dodging, and that's doing more or less nothign against either ship.

Of course, we're talking about 35 points of Soontir against 100 points of dash/mira, so he has allies, but even then it's not a spectacular matchup.

If it was, people would be playing him.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not just the attacks soontir struggles with, it's the attacks and the bombs and doing enough damage whilst avoiding both to actually make any impact. He's likely to be rolling pure naked dice, because he needs to save all his tokens for dodging, and that's doing more or less nothign against either ship.

Of course, we're talking about 35 points of Soontir against 100 points of dash/mira, so he has allies, but even then it's not a spectacular matchup.

If it was, people would be playing him.

And what his 35pts can do vs 45pts of Kylo.

And even if he uses both his actions to dodge AND stays in range of both ships (for some reason) AND isn;t at range 1 of either... he still get a Focus and doesn't have naked dice.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And what his 35pts can do vs 45pts of Kylo.

And even if he uses both his actions to dodge AND stays in range of both ships (for some reason) AND isn;t at range 1 of either... he still get a Focus and doesn't have naked dice.

He gets a focus he needs to use to defend or he gets blatted by 4 dice with good mods from Miranda or a 4 die then a 3 die TLT, or a 4 die HLC, or both. He needs the token to not die in almost any situation.

I've been a little unconvinced by Kylo myself. The idea of him as a point fortress when he can take spike damage and he can't regen really doesn't convince me.

ASPTL plus green turns is gonna be insane, but I'm concerned he just won't be that good. He's not that much harder to kill than a non-x7 defender, and even with autothrusters, overwhelming them with dice isn't that tough.

24 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I've been a little unconvinced by Kylo myself. The idea of him as a point fortress when he can take spike damage and he can't regen really doesn't convince me.

I agree with this. The increase in hit points but lower overall defense compared to traditional Imperial aces put him on a clock. It's a slow clock, but there's no shortage of ship types that will wear him down despite a tremendous PS9 arc dodging ability.

45 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

His defences are hugely based on never getting shot, and that's going to work really well against some lists but not at all against others.

This can not be overstated!
That is his way to "point fortress", that's the new thing he brings, and that's why he won't be even remotely OP - because it just does. not. work. against some lists. At all, with 0% chance.