1 minute ago, Icelom said:

Only got to page 3...

Everyone seems to be forgetting that if you use all your actions for arc dodging you are left with a noodle launcher for offence. (same issue that soontir fel has honestly and he would have a focus if he did do double arc dodge).

No list can afford to spend almost half its list to do 3 unmodified dice worth of damage.

I most likely will be trying him with fcs instead of advanced sensors, it opens him up to be blocked a lot easier but then he can actually do some damage while still boosting/barrel rolling. I still do not know if that will be enough offense to justify his price.

Yea but you seem to be forgetting that most turns he won't NEED to double repo. Double repo will only be if he is flown in poor hands.

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

A bid is a marvelous thing.

and you're willing to lose a game because your bid is not high enough?!

2 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:

Kylo isn't a closer because most people won't fly Kylo correctly, right?

He has no offense - if he really arcdodges as people claim at the moment then he does not have the action economy for sufficient mods. If he really survives by bumping, then he won't be able to shoot his target.

He has a single attack per turn with a reroll (if the title survives that long!) and hopefully a focus. That gives often 3 hits, but that's it. At a cost of half your list, apparently with a marvelous bid.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

His offense is not low if there is only one other ship left on the board, and it doesn't have to be because that ship will more than likely be worth less than him so he wins anyway.

I doubt both claims. Kylo's wingmen have to do a lot of offensive work, e.g. chewing through 27hp of Wookies, to leave just one ship. Otherwise Kylo is very likely less expensive.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

and you're willing to lose a game because your bid is not high enough?!

He has no offense - if he really arcdodges as people claim at the moment then he does not have the action economy for sufficient mods. If he really survives by bumping, then he won't be able to shoot his target.

He has a single attack per turn with a reroll (if the title survives that long!) and hopefully a focus. That gives often 3 hits, but that's it. At a cost of half your list, apparently with a marvelous bid.

I doubt both claims. Kylo's wingmen have to do a lot of offensive work, e.g. chewing through 27hp of Wookies, to leave just one ship. Otherwise Kylo is very likely less expensive.

you keep saying he has no offense. Why do you think that?

Just now, Timathius said:

you keep saying he has no offense. Why do you think that?

You keep hearing it because it's not just me

Because his only way to pointfortress is to arcdodge. Sure we can go all elitist and say that the great players won't need double repositioning. But that's his way to survive.

Whenever he does use his actions on double repositioning then he won't be getting Focus+TL. If he only uses one repositioning then he will just get Focus+1reroll. Hopefully really dodging all arcs because otherwise he does not want to spend that focus on offense. And if he gets the perfect turn and actually got Focus+TL for full double modification, then he gets 3 hits.

On 11/29/2017 at 11:10 AM, Admiral Deathrain said:

In other news, turrets even more mandatory?

Sigh, arcdodgers are just too polarising...but whenever they are too good is when the game is at its worst.

I really like this post. I think a lot of people misunderstood it as saying that arcdodgers are emotionally polarizing (like how politicians can be described as "polarizing"), but I think you meant that they're game -polarizing, right?

The problem with arcdodgers being the meta is that the answer is to either fly more arcdodgers with an even bigger bid, or fly fat turrets to fight the arcdodgers. People who hate turrets really, really shouldn't want arcdodgers to be OP.

Luckily, I don't think Kylo's going to be the most OP thing ever. He'll be good, but not game-breaking. Which is good, because otherwise, everything from the new wave except maybe the Resistance Bomber will be DOA.

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe he can constantly bump and then you won't lose x-100. But you still have to destroy more points than you lost. Which means you are incentivized to make him >47pt due to e.g. Miranda or Nym builds. He's 47pt with Optics and PTL, and those are the only slots where a higher cost upgrade does not cripple him beyond usability.

Also, I'm pretty sure kylo beats a non slam bombing miranda (which seems to be the way she's going) by staying R1 and plinking damage in while she tries to regen.

Nym is is harder, but he's one damaged cockpit away from being easier to clean up.

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I really like this post. I think a lot of people misunderstood it as saying that arcdodgers are emotionally polarizing (like how politicians can be described as "polarizing"), but I think you meant that they're game -polarizing, right?

The problem with arcdodgers being the meta is that the answer is to either fly more arcdodgers with an even bigger bid, or fly fat turrets to fight the arcdodgers. People who hate turrets really, really shouldn't want arcdodgers to be OP.

Luckily, I don't think Kylo's going to be the most OP thing ever. He'll be good, but not game-breaking. Which is good, because otherwise, everything from the new wave except maybe the Resistance Bomber will be DOA.

I'd be far more sold on the res bomber if defective platings weren't an rng piece of crap

Real deflective plating wouldn't randomly fail

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You keep hearing it because it's not just me

Because his only way to pointfortress is to arcdodge. Sure we can go all elitist and say that the great players won't need double repositioning. But that's his way to survive.

Whenever he does use his actions on double repositioning then he won't be getting Focus+TL. If he only uses one repositioning then he will just get Focus+1reroll. Hopefully really dodging all arcs because otherwise he does not want to spend that focus on offense. And if he gets the perfect turn and actually got Focus+TL for full double modification, then he gets 3 hits.

No it IS just you that I am hearing saying that, which is why I asked.

He doesn't have to arc dodge EVERY turn, have you seen his dial? there will be plenty of times he can token up or grab target locks. You also seem to be ignoring the fact he can get into range one very easily. By your logic Poe has no offense, QD has no offense, Fenn has no offense, Asajj has no offense.... Three die ships that can get into range one with mods are pretty good on offense...

Also, I'm pretty sure kylo beats a non slam bombing miranda (which seems to be the way she's going) by staying R1 and plinking damage in while she tries to regen.

Nym is is harder, but he's one damaged cockpit away from being easier to clean up.

Miranda is super scared of Kylo. Because he out points most Mirandas now.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

He doesn't have to arc dodge EVERY turn, have you seen his dial? there will be plenty of times he can token up or grab target locks. You also seem to be ignoring the fact he can get into range one very easily. By your logic Poe has no offense, QD has no offense, Fenn has no offense, Asajj has no offense.... Three die ships that can get into range one with mods are pretty good on offense...

I see, by "it IS just you" you mean "you and others", as you just answered Icelom about the very same :P

To "token up" usually means focus+evade, which he can't. He can at best get Focus+TL, and then he gets no repositioning. Even worse - he will usually want to do this before his green movement to clear the stress. But that leaves no room to correct a misjudged movement/arc.

Poe has relatively weak offense, yes. That's partially why BB8-IntensityPoe is popular, because he can reliably get focus+TL.
Fenn has infinite prockets in range 1, where he is happy to sit in arc and not be extra careful like Kylo has to be.
Quickdraw has her revenge shot which massively boosts offense. Also Focus+TL because of FCS.
Assajj is a large based ship which has no place in this comparison.

Kylo can of course get into range 1, too. But he needs to be extremely careful. Getting safely into range 1 without being blocked will often require at least one reposition, crippling his offense compared to the other ships you mentioned. They don't have to be as careful because they are cheaper (Fenn), still get their benefit (QD with revenge+FCS) or tokenup before (Poe with focus+evade)

8 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Miranda is super scared of Kylo. Because he out points most Mirandas now.

If this turns out to be true, good. That chick needs to be scared of something.

12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'd be far more sold on the res bomber if defective platings weren't an rng piece of crap

Real deflective plating wouldn't randomly fail

True, platings are garbage. I don't think I'll use them when I fly the bomber, probably just dial in a 0-stop when I feel like launching a bomb.

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

If this turns out to be true, good. That chick needs to be scared of something.

Missiles + ISTDs equals dead Miranda. Been like that for a little while now, especially post-FAQ.

Point fortress Kylo just makes things that much more difficult for Miranda, Dash, and Nym to fly around like a kite.

Makes the end game scary for all of them no doubt.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I see, by "it IS just you" you mean "you and others", as you just answered Icelom about the very same

To "token up" usually means focus+evade, which he can't. He can at best get Focus+TL, and then he gets no repositioning. Even worse - he will usually want to do this before his green movement to clear the stress. But that leaves no room to correct a misjudged movement/arc.

Poe has relatively weak offense, yes. That's partially why BB8-IntensityPoe is popular, because he can reliably get focus+TL.
Fenn has infinite prockets in range 1, where he is happy to sit in arc and not be extra careful like Kylo has to be.
Quickdraw has her revenge shot which massively boosts offense. Also Focus+TL because of FCS.
Assajj is a large based ship which has no place in this comparison.

Kylo can of course get into range 1, too. But he needs to be extremely careful. Getting safely into range 1 without being blocked will often require at least one reposition, crippling his offense compared to the other ships you mentioned. They don't have to be as careful because they are cheaper (Fenn), still get their benefit (QD with revenge+FCS) or tokenup before (Poe with focus+evade)

Ok TWO people and SotL whose opinion I basically disregard.

In the end, neither of us will convince the other. I have seen it being flown both on vassal and by proxy by good players, and he is pretty amazing (read terrifying as a rebel/scum player). He won't win anything right away, because a lot of bad players will try him and fail. But after a couple months, he will be very successful.

1 hour ago, Timathius said:

He won't win anything right away, because a lot of bad players will try him and fail. But after a couple months, he will be very successful.

I wouldn't be too sure. There are a lot of us that wore out our one-speed templates with Soontir until he got forced out. Read as "were very successful"

I'm ready to get back to Acewing.

The biggest hurdle, to your point, is finding the wingmate(s) for Kylo. Those who don't nail that will fall into the trap you cite, often seen when something new or hyped comes out. RE: Nym.

28 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

The biggest hurdle, to your point, is finding the wingmate(s) for Kylo. Those who don't nail that will fall into the trap you cite, often seen when something new or hyped comes out. RE: Nym.

So who are you thinking of for a Kylo wingman?

I kinda like the idea of Kylo/Vader, but I think a 15-20 point bid is a bit excessive but throwing an Academy Pilot in there might not help much. It's hard to build out a Kylo/Vader/??? list where the ??? is actually useful.

Do you think RAC will be the default Kylo wingman?

What else do the Imps have in that 50-60 point range? Two GUNBOATs?

6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So who are you thinking of for a Kylo wingman?

I kinda like the idea of Kylo/Vader, but I think a 15-20 point bid is a bit excessive but throwing an Academy Pilot in there might not help much. It's hard to build out a Kylo/Vader/??? list where the ??? is actually useful.

Do you think RAC will be the default Kylo wingman?

What else do the Imps have in that 50-60 point range? Two GUNBOATs?

Short answer is the biggest ship you feel comfortable flying, with Palp / Vader crew.

Two Lamdas. Fortress/slow roll them on one side of the map. Drag the opponent with Kylo. If they don't want to play, you've 9 dice, which is a competitive final salvo.

One with Palp.
One with Vader.
Courier Droid on the one you think is more important.

Or a tricked out Ups but I haven't put that into a squad builder yet.

Or a very skinny RAC with Palp.

6 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Two Lamdas. Fortress/slow roll them on one side of the map. Drag the opponent with Kylo. If they don't want to play, you've 9 dice, which is a competitive final salvo.

I like this! I might not take Palp on there just because Kylo gets some pretty reliable dice mods with the title and such, so I might consider having more control on the Lambdas, such as Mara Jade, Tactician, Ion Cannon, etc.

Cool! I might build that one out and see how it goes.

32 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So who are you thinking of for a Kylo wingman?

I kinda like the idea of Kylo/Vader, but I think a 15-20 point bid is a bit excessive but throwing an Academy Pilot in there might not help much. It's hard to build out a Kylo/Vader/??? list where the ??? is actually useful.

Do you think RAC will be the default Kylo wingman?

What else do the Imps have in that 50-60 point range? Two GUNBOATs?

So far in list building I'm a fan of the 2 Gunboats, one with HLC and one with Mangler. Both Nu Squad Pilots, LRS, and Linked Batteries. It adds a large amount of damage to help push damage on the opposing list for Kylo to finish off and Mangler works well with Kylo's ability. RAC will be difficult to build with how expensive Kylo can get, but a cheap RAC I've thought of is VI, Vader, & Engine. I'm not really sold on that combo though. RAC might fit better with Blackout and just put Kylo crew back on RAC to PS0 anybody threatening Blackout and let the PTL/AdvSrs + amazing dial do the work from there. Finally there's the Palp shuttle and finding a 3rd ship with Kylo+PalpShuttle, which has mostly been Omega Leader.

3 hours ago, Timathius said:

Ok TWO people and SotL whose opinion I basically disregard.

In the end, neither of us will convince the other. I have seen it being flown both on vassal and by proxy by good players, and he is pretty amazing (read terrifying as a rebel/scum player). He won't win anything right away, because a lot of bad players will try him and fail. But after a couple months, he will be very successful.

I think he will be good,

Just not as a pure arc dodger as suggested all over the place. He is a strong ship but kitted out as a pure arc dodger and he is too expensive for his offence. When you change things like advanced sensors over to fire control you really gimp back his arc dodging-ness but make him actually do damage. However in the incarnation of PTL + Advance sensors + (tech that lets you do stress check latter) he will not actually be that good other then surviving he wont do much else. And when you take off the advance sensors you make him alot easier to take down if you are skilled because you can block him.

So either he is good but can be countered by skilled flying, or he is very hard to hit but tosses wet noodles at you in return.

This could be okay:

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Autothrusters (2)

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/x1 (0)

"Mauler Mithel" (17)
Crack Shot (1)

Total: 97

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Vader does miss engine upgrade a little bit (or you could even swap the Harpoon out for EU), but the nice thing is when you shoot harpoons, you can Tl + Evade. Between a reroll and guidance chips, you can typically get 4 hits out of harpoons without a focus, and you have the bonus of having an evade. Mauler w/crack shot is a good flanker. Either he will be ignored and do some damage, or get focused down bc he is an easy target, which at least would take heat off of Vader or Kylo.

Also, if you only want a one point bid, Countdown could work well. Or instead of Countdown, you could do EU on Vader and throw in Dark Curse. He can be annoying.

Epsilon Ace w/Primed or PA could be okay. Or just an Epsilon w/weps guidance or something.

Seems like the Title should be just as good as a target lock. Its not that hard to ensure the only ship in your arc is the target. And that way you can still keep Advanced Sensors to be immune to blocking.

5 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Seems like the Title should be just as good as a target lock. Its not that hard to ensure the only ship in your arc is the target. And that way you can still keep Advanced Sensors to be immune to blocking.

Have you played against Wookies?

An interesting thought: Kylo builds have less need of bid than most (and VI especially), because the absolute most you can squeeze in to most lists is 3 ships at PS 9 or greater.

Should any of them hit Kylo Ren, they can very rapidly become PS 0.

So in a sense you can elect to spend a couple of HP against higher-PS ships in return for out-PSing them.

I'm not sure how often this will come up, but it's certainly a versatile form of counterplay...

3 hours ago, Icelom said:

I think he will be good,

Just not as a pure arc dodger as suggested all over the place. He is a strong ship but kitted out as a pure arc dodger and he is too expensive for his offence. When you change things like advanced sensors over to fire control you really gimp back his arc dodging-ness but make him actually do damage. However in the incarnation of PTL + Advance sensors + (tech that lets you do stress check latter) he will not actually be that good other then surviving he wont do much else. And when you take off the advance sensors you make him alot easier to take down if you are skilled because you can block him.

So either he is good but can be countered by skilled flying, or he is very hard to hit but tosses wet noodles at you in return.

I've got a feeling this will be the case. Keep in him in a point range where Focus+Reroll is a reasonable offense and use his other abilities as best you can.

7 minutes ago, Reiver said:

An interesting thought: Kylo builds have less need of bid than most (and VI especially), because the absolute most you can squeeze in to most lists is 3 ships at PS 9 or greater.

Should any of them hit Kylo Ren, they can very rapidly become PS 0.

So in a sense you can elect to spend a couple of HP against higher-PS ships in return for out-PSing them.

I'm not sure how often this will come up, but it's certainly a versatile form of counterplay...

I expect Kylo's ability will be best if his owner doesn't plan on it working all that well. It's there for your opponent to think about and plan for, it's icing on the cake for you. If one plans for it to work, especially if needed at a certain time, I think one will be disappointed. That's not to say it won't sometimes be a game winner, but don't think it's going to happen on the turn you plan.

6 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Have you played against Wookies?

I've heard of multi-wook lists, but never actually seen anybody run it. Its usually only one in a FSR2.0 list.

And if its a list of Wookiee gunship spam, they're basically the perfect thing for a Silencer to eat alive. Low PS, arc locked, and has no ability to reposition or even k-turn.