1 minute ago, Lightrock said:

I think you're being a bit too harsh on Kylo. I've played AdvSensor PTL Brobots, and I have a healthy respect for what they can do. And Brobots have a large base, no barrel roll and no green hard turns. At the very least, Kylo cannot be blocked and focused down. Nor is he as vulnerable to getting taken off the table by one or two unlucky rolls. Last but not least, if it goes down to 1v1, he'll be about as hard to take out as any other ace and he'll cost more too. In that regard at least, he can fortress just fine.

Any other ace without regen or evade tokens. So, basically none of them.

And the IG comparison is good because you spend IG money on a ship that has 2 less hull, no cannon, no free evade, and no gunner.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Any other ace without regen or evade tokens. So, basically none of them.

Fenn?

Also, he can avoid being shot altogether in 1v1.

Though I do agree that his ability sucks for the price and the PS. He'd be way better off if it was just a special action he could do, just like the crew version.

2 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Fenn?

Also, he can avoid being shot altogether in 1v1.

Though I do agree that his ability sucks for the price and the PS. He'd be way better off if it was just a special action he could do, just like the crew version.

Fenn has R1 evade from title, plus he rolls 5 dice. And costs 10-15pts less.

Im not even sure the Silencer Kylo is better than the Upsilon version. That statement started out as hyperbole but the more I think on it the more I'm being convinced there's at least not much in it.

56 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Silencer is a long way short of OP.

Might be true? But I think you underestimate his maneuverability. AdvS PtL at 9 with dat dial is bonkers. WAAAAAY better than current Phantoms—if you screw up with a Phantom, you actually pay for it. You’ve gotta dial in something pretty stupid with Kylo to be punished for it. Or more accurately, you’ve gotta make some pretty stupid boost barrel roll calls.

Re: his defense—it’s actually not too shabby, mostly because of the aforementioned maneuverability. Being caught in a place where autothrusters doesn’t work is a pretty rare occurrence.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Fenn has R1 evade from title, plus he rolls 5 dice. And costs 10-15pts less.

Im not even sure the Silencer Kylo is better than the Upsilon version. That statement started out as hyperbole but the more I think on it the more I'm being convinced there's at least not much in it.

Don't judge a ship until you've played it or seen someone good make the most out of it. This is one of those ships that can perform on a much higher level than their pure stats suggest in the hands of a skilled player.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Fenn has R1 evade from title, plus he rolls 5 dice. And costs 10-15pts less.

Im not even sure the Silencer Kylo is better than the Upsilon version. That statement started out as hyperbole but the more I think on it the more I'm being convinced there's at least not much in it.

And Kylo can arc-dodge everywhere with Advanced Sensors, PTL and Primed Thrusters, while still getting a reroll from the title.

And saying that Upsilon Kylo is better than Silencer Kylo is crazy. It is painfully easy to mitigate Upsilon Kylo's ability because it's a forced reaction to the first time he's hit, he's only PS6, and the shuttle can't turn for squat. Just make sure that the first attacker each round is the one outside of his firing arc, and it will never come into play.

It's much harder to land hits on a 3-agility ace, so your opponent will be less likely to ping-pong the condition around. Kylo's PS9, so he can plan his maneuvers to attack the target with the condition and will often attack before they will, which boosts his chances of pushing the crit through. He could even choose let a single hit through by not spending tokens, just to ensure that attacker gets the condition.

5 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

If that's not the most available ending positions in the game, I don't know what is.

Significant does not necessarily mean relevant.

Yes he will be able to pull amazing maneuvers. But will it matter ?

Offense: One reroll from the title, maybe sometimes a focus to spend on offense... Even if he gets his 3 hits (which is quite likely at 74%)... That is not very good anymore.

Defense: he can only dodge arcs if ships care about arcs. What was the amount of out-of-arc shooting ships in US, Canadian and Australian nationals? Around 70%? All his advantage doesn‘t work here, and so he can‘t fortress via dodging.

At best he actually succeeds as point fortress via dodging, and then he brings below 50pt over the line. I doubt that he will be a good 1v1 finisher.

How does his list destroy more points than he brings?

1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:

And Kylo can arc-dodge everywhere with Advanced Sensors, PTL and Primed Thrusters, while still getting a reroll from the title.

And saying that Upsilon Kylo is better than Silencer Kylo is crazy. It is painfully easy to mitigate Upsilon Kylo's ability because it's a forced reaction to the first time he's hit, he's only PS6, and the shuttle can't turn for squat. Just make sure that the first attacker each round is the one outside of his firing arc, and it will never come into play.

It's much harder to land hits on a 3-agility ace, so your opponent will be less likely to ping-pong the condition around. Kylo's PS9, so he can plan his maneuvers to attack the target with the condition and will often attack before they will, which boosts his chances of pushing the crit through. He could even choose let a single hit through by not spending tokens, just to ensure that attacker gets the condition.

I plan to push my crits using Backdraft, with PtL/AS Kylo and ASTS Omega Leader or Wired Zeta Leader. Backdraft has VI so that he will likely shoot first the turn after the condition is applied to apply blinded pilot or whatever else.

25 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Fenn has R1 evade from title, plus he rolls 5 dice. And costs 10-15pts less.

Im not even sure the Silencer Kylo is better than the Upsilon version. That statement started out as hyperbole but the more I think on it the more I'm being convinced there's at least not much in it.

His cost is a feature. He is better than the upsilon. He is not at all overcosted and probably somewhat undercosted. . This guy will be an absolute menace. you seem to be forgetting he gets friends...

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Significant does not necessarily mean relevant.

Yes he will be able to pull amazing maneuvers. But will it matter ?

Offense: One reroll from the title, maybe sometimes a focus to spend on offense... Even if he gets his 3 hits (which is quite likely at 74%)... That is not very good anymore.

Defense: he can only dodge arcs if ships care about arcs. What was the amount of out-of-arc shooting ships in US, Canadian and Australian nationals? Around 70%? All his advantage doesn‘t work here, and so he can‘t fortress via dodging.

At best he actually succeeds as point fortress via dodging, and then he brings below 50pt over the line. I doubt that he will be a good 1v1 finisher.

How does his list destroy more points than he brings?

Because empire has access to quite a few guided missile type ships like RAC, hlc gunboats etc.

So after taking in all the opinions and information give on the Silencer, I feel a strong equivalent as to the skill level and gap to it is Miranda Doni. Let me explain.

At it's base kit available and likely upgrades, your floor will in general be higher by playing each ship in terms of output of success against the average field of players.

But then there's a large gap between that higher floor and the super high ceiling of actually placing high/winning in large tournaments you have to achieve via understanding the matrix of maneuvers and what the ship can actually do offensively and defensively through a lot of practice. Not only the ship itself, but understanding it's correct wingman(s) will take time to fill out what fills the gaps in the Silencer's play.

The whole point of arc dodging is to not get shot. Kylo can advanced sensors focus, reposition and slam into a ship that he doesn't want to get shot by.

1 minute ago, RStan said:

So after taking in all the opinions and information give on the Silencer, I feel a strong equivalent as to the skill level and gap to it is Miranda Doni. Let me explain.

At it's base kit available and likely upgrades, your floor will in general be higher by playing each ship in terms of output of success against the average field of players.

But then there's a large gap between that higher floor and the super high ceiling of actually placing high/winning in large tournaments you have to achieve via understanding the matrix of maneuvers and what the ship can actually do offensively and defensively through a lot of practice. Not only the ship itself, but understanding it's correct wingman(s) will take time to fill out what fills the gaps in the Silencer's play.

As someone who plays a lot of Miranda, I agree.

4 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Because empire has access to quite a few guided missile type ships like RAC, hlc gunboats etc.

Yes, but why then put almost 50pt on Kylo instead of bringing two more HLC gunboats?

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

The whole point of arc dodging is to not get shot. Kylo can advanced sensors focus, reposition and slam into a ship that he doesn't want to get shot by.

Which works against ships that care about arc. Which is the minority, sadly enough

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Which works against ships that care about arc. Which is the minority, sadly enough

pretty sure turrets can't shoot you when you're bumped into them.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, but why then put almost 50pt on Kylo instead of bringing two more HLC gunboats?

Which works against ships that care about arc. Which is the minority, sadly enough

Because gunboats aren't Ps9 with repositions 3 evade dice autothrusters.... He is not MEANT to do the damage of two gunboats they fill completely different roles.

pretty sure turrets can't shoot you when you're bumped into them.

Also that whole Auto thrusters thing is pretty good I hear.

1 minute ago, Timathius said:

Also that whole Auto thrusters thing is pretty good I hear.

Nym with autothrusters seems okay I guess.

6 minutes ago, RStan said:

But then there's a large gap between that higher floor and the super high ceiling of actually placing high/winning in large tournaments you have to achieve via understanding the matrix of maneuvers and what the ship can actually do offensively and defensively through a lot of practice. Not only the ship itself, but understanding it's correct wingman(s) will take time to fill out what fills the gaps in the Silencer's play.

The strength of this ship will lie with who you also bring to the fight. If you go defensive with Palp and ASTS Omega Leader, you just need to out fly your opponents. If you bring a hyper offensive group (Vader, Quickdraw, Pure Sabacc), you need to get ahead on the damage race so that the opponent's remaining ship cannot kill or out-point Kylo.

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

pretty sure turrets can't shoot you when you're bumped into them.

2 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Also that whole Auto thrusters thing is pretty good I hear.

I hope that you two are right, but bombs seem to disagree, too.

Also @Timathius that's what I mentioned before: I don't think Kylo is a closer - his offense is too low and unreliable compared to e.g. Fenn, Whisper, QD or many other ships.

Maybe he can constantly bump and then you won't lose x-100. But you still have to destroy more points than you lost. Which means you are incentivized to make him >47pt due to e.g. Miranda or Nym builds. He's 47pt with Optics and PTL, and those are the only slots where a higher cost upgrade does not cripple him beyond usability.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I hope that you two are right, but bombs seem to disagree, too.

I really hope I'm wrong.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe he can constantly bump and then you won't lose x-100. But you still have to destroy more points than you lost. Which means you are incentivized to make him >47pt due to e.g. Miranda or Nym builds. He's 47pt with Optics and PTL, and those are the only slots where a higher cost upgrade does not cripple him beyond usability.

A bid is a marvelous thing.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Also @Timathius that's what I mentioned before: I don't think Kylo is a closer - his offense is too low and unreliable compared to e.g. Fenn, Whisper, QD or many other ships.

Kylo isn't a closer because most people won't fly Kylo correctly, right?

23 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

There was a time just a year and a half ago when a lone Soontir Fel with an 65pt bid was capable of going 4-2 in big Regionals.

In no way shape or form should this be considered a good thing. Ever.

Only got to page 3...

Everyone seems to be forgetting that if you use all your actions for arc dodging you are left with a noodle launcher for offence. (same issue that soontir fel has honestly and he would have a focus if he did do double arc dodge).

No list can afford to spend almost half its list to do 3 unmodified dice worth of damage.

I most likely will be trying him with fcs instead of advanced sensors, it opens him up to be blocked a lot easier but then he can actually do some damage while still boosting/barrel rolling. I still do not know if that will be enough offense to justify his price.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I hope that you two are right, but bombs seem to disagree, too.

Also @Timathius that's what I mentioned before: I don't think Kylo is a closer - his offense is too low and unreliable compared to e.g. Fenn, Whisper, QD or many other ships.

Maybe he can constantly bump and then you won't lose x-100. But you still have to destroy more points than you lost. Which means you are incentivized to make him >47pt due to e.g. Miranda or Nym builds. He's 47pt with Optics and PTL, and those are the only slots where a higher cost upgrade does not cripple him beyond usability.

His offense is not low if there is only one other ship left on the board, and it doesn't have to be because that ship will more than likely be worth less than him so he wins anyway.

Just now, Icelom said:

Everyone seems to be forgetting that if you use all your actions for arc dodging you are left with a noodle launcher for offence. (same issue that soontir fel has honestly and he would have a focus if he did do double arc dodge).

No list can afford to spend almost half its list to do 3 unmodified dice worth of damage.

with just title it's 1.9 expected damage.