4 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:I also don't think it will improve the state of the game by much, mostly by hopefully boosting the weakest faction, not because it is an enjoyable ship to fly against.
Member when scum was weak so they released the jumpmaster to boost it? This ship is going to turn empire into the silencer faction.
19 minutes ago, jagsba said:Member when scum was weak so they released the jumpmaster to boost it? This ship is going to turn empire into the silencer faction.
Definitely not. The ship is very expensive. It's hard to find wingmen for it, and I'm still not sure if it's worth the points for the offense you are getting.
The opposite of a jumpmaster really
26 minutes ago, jagsba said:Member when scum was weak so they released the jumpmaster to boost it? This ship is going to turn empire into the silencer faction.
But Scum is relatively diverse? Interestingly more diverse than the imperial faction, at the moment, which is heavily centered on Quickdraw.
2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:I think PT is used less frequently but with higher impact, while AdvOptics is used more frequently with less impact in each single instance. Of course they can and will add up over the course of a game or tournament, hence my "think AdvOptics is better than we give it credit at the moment".
See, that's where our judgement is completely different. For me, having a focus when you'd otherwise have none is potentially as high an impact as can be. Say you're gonna get shot by 2 ships and you can dodge one of those attacks if you reposition twice. However, if you don't have AO, that means that the other ship can shoot at you when you're tokenless. This is actually a pretty common situation when you're facing a turret ship, such as Dash, and an arc-based ship, such as Poe. Having or not having a focus against Dash's shot can be absolutely massive.
Anyway, we probably won't agree on this. It's just that I believe that PTs can mostly save your bacon when you screw up. The better you play, the less of an impact it will have. AO is precisely the opposite.
9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:But Scum is relatively diverse? Interestingly more diverse than the imperial faction, at the moment, which is heavily centered on Quickdraw.
Scum is relatively diverse now . When the jumpmaster was released they had to fly either brobots or tlts Ys to be competitive. Two very specific builds with little variety in them. Note that pretty much all the competitive scum ships (jumpmaster, shadowcaster, scurrg, protectorate) were released after the jumpmaster.
Just now, jagsba said:Scum is relatively diverse now . When the jumpmaster was released they had to fly either brobots or tlts Ys to be competitive. Two very specific builds with little variety in them. Note that pretty much all the competitive scum ships (jumpmaster, shadowcaster, scurrg, protectorate) were released after the jumpmaster.
Then you have to help me to see how that relates to the imperial faction which was not added in later and went through different phases of high and low diversity.
I think there have been valid points about PA vs AS.
I'd agree if you take AS, no need for PA. Take PT instead.
However, here is why I like PA more: it let's you take FCS! PTL/PA/FCS is basically 3 actions a turn (counting the TL), and between PA used on a green manuevers (or Yorr), you do not end up stressed.
Plus, FCS will massively boost Kylo's offense! Soontir only wishes he could have FCS.
Anyways, I think PA/FCS gives you the best mix of repositioning, offense, action on a talon roll (and FCS will still apply), and courtesy of ten greens, you can PTL and not be stressed.
Maybe something like this:
Captain Yorr (24)
Emperor Palpatine (8)
Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Autothrusters (2)
"Omega Leader" (21)
A Score to Settle (0)
Comm Relay (3)
Total: 100
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
I guess that is pretty much the Mynock Special 2.0
Just now, GreenDragoon said:Then you have to help me to see how that relates to the imperial faction which was not added in later and went through different phases of high and low diversity.
The imperials are in a period of low competitive capability now (or at least were before the nerf) were you have only a few niche builds that can do well. This is analogous to scum before the jumpmaster.
Imperials are about to get a crazy strong ship with huge potential, analogous to the jumpmaster release.
What happened to scum when the jumpmaster was released? The only thing flown in scum was jumpmasters. They were so much better than any other option that every list had to include at least one. After almost 2 years, 5 nerfs and a slew of other good ships being released we're just getting to the point where they might not be a mandatory include in scum lists.
It hasn't been released so I can't say for sure what will happen, and it's based on one anecdote, But if weak faction gets OP ship, then we run the risk of faction being tethered to OP ship for a long time.
41 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:Definitely not. The ship is very expensive. It's hard to find wingmen for it, and I'm still not sure if it's worth the points for the offense you are getting.
The opposite of a jumpmaster really
We are at peak Silencer hype. The reality will be slow to sink in. While you can't create an argument that it's a bad ship Kylo's not better than existing Imperial options, and likely to prove slightly worse because he's not really got any particular strengths that one of others doesn't do better.
6 minutes ago, jagsba said:It hasn't been released so I can't say for sure what will happen, and it's based on one anecdote, But if weak faction gets OP ship, then we run the risk of faction being tethered to OP ship for a long time.
Silencer is a long way short of OP.
4 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:I think there have been valid points about PA vs AS.
I'd agree if you take AS, no need for PA. Take PT instead.
However, here is why I like PA more: it let's you take FCS! PTL/PA/FCS is basically 3 actions a turn (counting the TL), and between PA used on a green manuevers (or Yorr), you do not end up stressed.
Plus, FCS will massively boost Kylo's offense! Soontir only wishes he could have FCS.
Anyways, I think PA/FCS gives you the best mix of repositioning, offense, action on a talon roll (and FCS will still apply), and courtesy of ten greens, you can PTL and not be stressed.
Maybe something like this:
Captain Yorr (24)
Emperor Palpatine (8)Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Autothrusters (2)"Omega Leader" (21)
A Score to Settle (0)
Comm Relay (3)Total: 100
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
I guess that is pretty much the Mynock Special 2.0
There are 2 problems here:
1) you're vulnerable to getting blocked, while AdvS Kylo is not.
2) you have no bid whatsoever, which is potentially problematic if you face against another PS9 ace, such as Fenn, who does have bid.
I for one thing plan to rely on the title to get those re-rolls (admittedly limited ones). The titles also doubles as a protection against that one roll where you completely blank out and lose the game because of dice. In the end game you'll probably be able to get regular target locks anyway as you won't have to dodge arcs that much anymore.
What meta won't have Asajj to make Kylo feel bad, though? Haha.
4 minutes ago, phild0 said:What meta won't have Asajj to make Kylo feel bad, though? Haha.
Assajj can make Whisper feel bad. Soontir even. Kylo can take a single stress. Not to mention that catching him in arc and in range won't be trivial.
18 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:Captain Yorr (24)
Emperor Palpatine (8)
Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Fire-Control System (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Autothrusters (2)"Omega Leader" (21)
A Score to Settle (0)
Comm Relay (3)Total: 100
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
I guess that is pretty much the Mynock Special 2.0
Don't you want a bid with Kylo?
Yeah. Mobile arc will be a little easier, but Kylo is very squirrly. Depending on which way you barrel roll/boost before you move you can be a very long distance away from your previous position. Plus you know, Asaaj always will move before he does.
22 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:pretty sure turrets are more polarizing than arcdodging.
Arcdodging atleast requires some play knowledge and skill. Turrets are "dont fly into s*** and focus fire"
Arcdodging can also be messed with by bumperships, turrets generally dont give a **** outside loss of actions. Stripping actions off an arcdodge usually kills it that round while turret users just get whacked hard but not dead.
Or if you're flying Dash, it's just, "Don't fly off the board edge".
14 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:We are at peak Silencer hype. The reality will be slow to sink in. While you can't create an argument that it's a bad ship Kylo's not better than existing Imperial options, and likely to prove slightly worse because he's not really got any particular strengths that one of others doesn't do better.
That's not true either. Mobility and High PS with a fair amount of health is something we haven't seen together with this extent.
I genuinely believe that Kylo will be a force to reckoned with, mostly because the strong and prevalent ships that hurt him most comfortably fit in 2 ship lists, and Kylo's ability works wonders against them.
Soontir on this chassis might actually be worse than Kylo. With Kylo you are able to prevent shots, set people to PS 0, not to mention, push damage through shields, without having to fit a crew carrier in your list. That's a big strength most people don't account for.
13 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:That's not true either. Mobility and High PS with a fair amount of health is something we haven't seen together with this extent.
I genuinely believe that Kylo will be a force to reckoned with, mostly because the strong and prevalent ships that hurt him most comfortably fit in 2 ship lists, and Kylo's ability works wonders against them.
Soontir on this chassis might actually be worse than Kylo. With Kylo you are able to prevent shots, set people to PS 0, not to mention, push damage through shields, without having to fit a crew carrier in your list. That's a big strength most people don't account for.
I think Soontir on that chassis would do way better. Being able to set enemy to PS0 is great but:
- it only makes sense if the target is above your PS (or same, but has more bid),
- you need to get hit first,
- you need to get hit by the target with PS higher than you and pray that you won't get hit by a target with lower PS than you before you managed to trigger he condition,
- you need to roll a crit and push it through the defense of that target.
To a large extent the same applies to blinded pilot, which is the reason why people run Kylo crew. Being able to stop a target from attacking is huge if you've got control over it. If not, the result will often be wasted or the opponent will fly in a way that minimizes it's impact.
TLDR: on paper Kylo's ability is great but you have very little control over when it triggers and on whom, which makes it very situational.
Edited by LightrockHaving played the Kylo shuttle a fair bit, ISYTDS is only a fraction of what it is on the crew card.
Kylo's extra hull vs Soontir is misleading, as Soontirs extra green dice and focus token are likely worth that much extra hull PER TURN.
He's the easiest ace to kill, after QD. He deals the least damage of any ace, after Soontir. All he's got going for him is the PS-dependent repositioning which just makes him a Whisper remix that deals less damage.
33 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:We are at peak Silencer hype. The reality will be slow to sink in. While you can't create an argument that it's a bad ship Kylo's not better than existing Imperial options, and likely to prove slightly worse because he's not really got any particular strengths that one of others doesn't do better.
14 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:Mobility and High PS with a fair amount of health is something we haven't seen together with this extent.
The new thing is a Corran-like, very expensive pointfortress. But unlike all other examples (Poe, Miranda, Corran, Dengar, Nym, RAC, Kanan), this one can‘t regen and/or evade, nor does he have a high amount it HP (9+).
Kylo is Corran-like against one ship in as much that a blinded pilot is slightly similar to a double tap.
But Kylo can‘t regen, which is huge, and he can‘t token stack, which is also huge. It looks like FFG really did their job here, and the result is that we don‘t appreciate a fair ship for what it is.
He's not a points fortress because HE CANT FORTRESS. If you want to fortress play Soontir and a 10pt bid, it'll work better.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:He's not a points fortress because HE CANT FORTRESS. If you want to fortress play Soontir and a 10pt bid, it'll work better.
Exactly. He sucks at being a fortress, which means he has nothing where he shines.
No regen, no token stack.
Kylo is a good 3pts overcosted (+9pts on base is crazy for such a weak pilot ability). You get those points back if you take Blackout, but I'm not sure that he's better than QD once he's kitted out.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:He's not a points fortress because HE CANT FORTRESS. If you want to fortress play Soontir and a 10pt bid, it'll work better.
I think you're being a bit too harsh on Kylo. I've played AdvSensor PTL Brobots, and I have a healthy respect for what they can do. And Brobots have a large base, no barrel roll and no green hard turns. At the very least, Kylo cannot be blocked and focused down. Nor is he as vulnerable to getting taken off the table by one or two unlucky rolls. Last but not least, if it goes down to 1v1, he'll be about as hard to take out as any other ace and he'll cost more too. In that regard at least, he can fortress just fine.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:Having played the Kylo shuttle a fair bit, ISYTDS is only a fraction of what it is on the crew card.
Kylo's extra hull vs Soontir is misleading, as Soontirs extra green dice and focus token are likely worth that much extra hull PER TURN.
He's the easiest ace to kill, after QD. He deals the least damage of any ace, after Soontir. All he's got going for him is the PS-dependent repositioning which just makes him a Whisper remix that deals less damage.
QD is quite successful, and Kylo is more mobile and survivable than She is.
He is more mobile than Soontir, while having more health. ANd has a way of re-rolling green dice if everything goes crap, which if it does, Soontir can do nothing about. 4 agility soontir only last until green dice go cold under you.
He is low on damage, that's fair, and I can't argue with that.
This ship has more greens than any other ship in the game, with a dial that has many many options for everything.
This ship has access to a bonkers combination of tech, system and EPT, on the highest available PS. Thanks to these, and the crazy dial, he has access to crazy crazy moves.
This is the best dial in the game (save for the JM5K maybe), and that power is multiplied when using Advanced Sensors, or the ability to ignore stress from Tech upgrades.
Saying there is nothing this ship can do that other's do better is quite simply not true. I really want someone to make a graphic showcasing Kylo's every possible move with advanced sensors and Primed Thrusters equipped. If that's not the most available ending positions in the game, I don't know what is.