25 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Is there something I'm missing here?

An anti-stress upgrade on a ship that constantly stresses itself?

Keeping options open, ie taking actions before or after movement just as you need them?

I think AdvOptics is better than we give it credit at the moment, because it is at least +1 action economy, probably more often over the course of a game. Just think how often you have to clean up focus tokens.

But PrimedThrusters gives always +1 when you would get 0 actions otherwise

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

An anti-stress upgrade on a **** that constantly stresses itself?

Keeping options open, ie taking actions before or after movement just as you need them?

I think AdvOptics is better than we give it credit at the moment, because it is at least +1 action economy, probably more often over the course of a game. Just think how often you have to clean up focus tokens.

But PrimedThrusters gives always +1 when you would get 0 actions otherwise

That's the point - it doesn't constantly stress itself. You perform your actions and use PTL before moving and then you perform a green maneuver and end up not being stressed. If you want to perform a white maneuver, you just don't use PTL - or you do, if the situation demands it, knowing that next turn you'll have to clear stress and won't be able to use AdvS. I suppose Primed Thrusters would be useful if you wanted to perform white maneuvers twice in a row and still use PTL while doing so, but with a dial like that, I can't imagine such a situation to be very frequent.

2 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

That's the point - it doesn't constantly stress itself. You perform your actions and use PTL before moving and then you perform a green maneuver and end up not being stressed. If you want to perform a white maneuver, you just don't use PTL - or you do, if the situation demands it, knowing that next turn you'll have to clear stress and won't be able to use AdvS. I suppose Primed Thrusters would be useful if you wanted to perform white maneuvers twice in a row and still use PTL while doing so, but with a dial like that, I can't imagine such a situation to be very frequent.

Yeah, you don't stress yourself, so you are free to do those Talon Rolls, after which you can then still reposition. Turnaround maneuvers are very potent, being able to use actions after them is even better.

Oh and you aren't completely screwed in case of stresshog/mule/bug.

2 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

If you want to perform a white maneuver, you just don't use PTL - or you do, if the situation demands it, knowing that next turn you'll have to clear stress and won't be able to use AdvS.

Or you add just 1pt and now can use PTL anyway because AdvS is great for pre maneuver reposition, which you still get to do now.

Without it you lose a continuously used 3pt upgrade with PTL. With it you lose 1pt difference to AdvOptics which is not used constantly.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Or you add just 1pt and now can use PTL anyway because AdvS is great for pre maneuver reposition, which you still get to do now.

Without it you lose a continuously used 3pt upgrade with PTL. With it you lose 1pt difference to AdvOptics which is not used constantly.

Yeah, you can use reposition and even use PTL with AdvS without clearing stress if you've got PTs alright. But then you're limited to only using your reposition actions. You want to focus or TL? You need to clear stress first, which means you need to perform your action after movement and you can't reposition first. Don't get me wrong, I can see why there will be some situations where primed thrusters would be useful. I just don't believe them to be common enough to make PTs worth the slot. On Intensity Poe PTs are fantastic because they allow him to perform any non-red maneuver, boost AND get a focus even while he's stressed, expanding his options big time. On Kylo they seem very situational in comparison.

6 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

On Kylo they seem very situational in comparison.

But Kylo will be half your list. A situational upgrade that saves you from a shot, or allows you to get a kill on a ship that would otherwise block you can be very good.

What are your alternatives?

PA, SensorCluster, WeaponsGuidance, Hypercom, CommRelay and TargetSynch are not useful.

That leaves PT, AdvOptics and ThreatTracker.

ThreatTracker is a worse AdvSensor, which you already use anyway.

That leaves AdvOptics. Which is also highly situational, and more expensive.

21 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Oh and you aren't completely screwed in case of stresshog/mule/bug.

These naming conventions are starting to get worse than the naming of scandals in the US.

(attaching the word "gate" doesn't mean anything! Stop it!)

37 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But Kylo will be half your list. A situational upgrade that saves you from a shot, or allows you to get a kill on a ship that would otherwise block you can be very good.

What are your alternatives?

PA, SensorCluster, WeaponsGuidance, Hypercom, CommRelay and TargetSynch are not useful.

That leaves PT, AdvOptics and ThreatTracker.

ThreatTracker is a worse AdvSensor, which you already use anyway.

That leaves AdvOptics. Which is also highly situational, and more expensive.

"Highly situational"? Since when is banking tokens situational? You get effectively 3 actions instead of 2 every time you don't spend focus. You don't spend focus:

- before the first engagement, which is often crucial,

- every time you disengage in order to avoid a potentially risky situation,

- every time you reposition in a way that puts you out of harm's way but doesn't allow you to shoot either,

- every time the enemy runs out of range or into a position you just can't get in arc this round,

- every time you just don't roll eye icons on your dice (or - in case of green dice - you just don't have to use those icons - or the dice for that matter).

Essentially the better your get at dodging fire and judging when to press on and when to disengage, the more benefit you're gonna see from using advanced optics. In the late game in particular, you'll be able to reposition twice, get a re-roll from the title and the focus from the optics. If you dodge arcs well enough, your attack will be the only roll you'll make each turn, giving you a very decent chance of not having to use your focus token after all.

Again, I might be biased by my experience with interceptors and TIE advanced, but this kind of hit-and-run playstyle and constantly judging when to get aggressive and when to leg it is very much bread-and-butter for me. Until the enemy forces have been whittled down, you end up running away from tight spots almost as much as you attack. Giving up on shots in order not to be shot at is a very common situation and I imagine it will be even more so on a ship that can't evade. That's why I find the idea of banking focus extremely appealing on Kylo and an order of magnitude less situational than PTs, which seem like they'd mostly be useful in situations that can be avoided altogether with good flying.

27 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But Kylo will be half your list. A situational upgrade that saves you from a shot, or allows you to get a kill on a ship that would otherwise block you can be very good.

What are your alternatives?

PA, SensorCluster, WeaponsGuidance, Hypercom, CommRelay and TargetSynch are not useful.

That leaves PT, AdvOptics and ThreatTracker.

ThreatTracker is a worse AdvSensor, which you already use anyway.

That leaves AdvOptics. Which is also highly situational, and more expensive.

Wait, what ?!? Pattern Analyser not useful on a PtL arc dodger. Could you enlight me, please ?

1 minute ago, Cartchan said:

Wait, what ?!? Pattern Analyser not useful on a PtL arc dodger. Could you enlight me, please ?

Soontir would murder the whole first order for that upgrade.
And then he still would prefer to use prime thrusters in practise. ;-)

PA becomes imho redundant when you already have advanced sensors and access to prime thrusters.

3 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

Wait, what ?!? Pattern Analyser not useful on a PtL arc dodger. Could you enlight me, please ?

I suppose that PA's functionality overlaps a lot with Advanced Sensors' functionality, meaning that putting both of those upgrades on one ship is waste of either of them. With FCS on the other hand, PA would be very useful indeed.

10 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

Wait, what ?!? Pattern Analyser not useful on a PtL arc dodger. Could you enlight me, please ?

The other two already answered, but you don‘t gain anything when you already have AdvancedSensors. The effect of PA does the same but more limited as AdvSensors. Except there you get even more out of it.

This should also highlight how amazing AdvSensor is: PA and ThreatTracker do parts of it, but not everything and not as well.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The other two already answered, but you don‘t gain anything when you already have AdvancedSensors. The effect of PA does the same but more limited as AdvSensors. Except there you get even more out of it.

This should also highlight how amazing AdvSensor is: PA and ThreatTracker do parts of it, but not everything and not as well.

To be fair, there will be situations when PA would be better than AdvS. With PA you can perform actions after moving and still end up not being stressed, which may be better if you need to reposition with a high degree of precision or to go around an obstacle. You an also use PTL on the same round you perform a red maneuver - at the expense of getting double stressed of course. Still, I'd agree that most of the time sensors are the superior option.

Thanks. I was missing the "with AdvSensor" part.

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

These naming conventions are starting to get worse than the naming of scandals in the US.

(attaching the word "gate" doesn't mean anything! Stop it!)

Normaly I'd agree with you, but rebel stress-animals are for some reason funny to me.

1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

Alright, can anyone please explain to me why you insist on putting Primed Thrusters on PTL/Advs Kylo? There are so many great options for the tech slot that I find it utterly incomprehensible why you'd fill it with an anti-stress upgrade on a ship that clears it right after performing his actions. The only cases where PTs would be useful are:

1) next round after performing a red maneuver (or using PTL and NOT using AdvS) you really, really want to pre-position before you move - but if you do so you can only perform one action or you end up double stressing yourself,

2) next round after performing a red maneuver (or using PTL and NOT using AdvS) for some reason you decide not to clear stress and choose to perform a white maneuver, but want the ability to reposition anyway - with the same caveat as before,

3) you get stressed by an external source and want the ability to reposition.

All of the above are highly situational and if my experience with interceptors is any indication, you probably won't perform red maneuvers all that much anyway. External stressors are also range and/or arc dependent, so with good flying you should be able to avoid them. Either way, for 1 point more you can get advanced optics which is also an excellent safeguard against stress but additionally it improves your action economy by allowing you to bank a token - which makes them useful pretty much all the time, not just in a few fringe cases.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Because you can then freely use PTL after moving if you need to, and still get your double action next round, k turn and still take a meaningful action, and you're a lot more resistant to stress control.

They're all good reasons, and insurance against all of them is worth one point, especially when there aren't massively better options for the slot and build.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because you can then freely use PTL after moving if you need to, and still get your double action next round, k turn and still take a meaningful action, and you're a lot more resistant to stress control.

They're all good reasons, and insurance against all of them is worth one point, especially when there aren't massively better options for the slot and build.

Yup, provided that both those double actions next round are barrel roll and boost and you really want to do both before moving. And the "meaningful action" after k-turn is also one of those - and that performing it after the k-turn is massively better than doing it before. If it wasn't for advanced optics, I'd agree with you that it might be worth it for 1 point, but with it...

Advanced Optics is great, but I'm finding that I want to save points SOMEWHERE in order to fit it into the lists I want to run, and the tech is probably the least essential slot.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Advanced Optics is great, but I'm finding that I want to save points SOMEWHERE in order to fit it into the lists I want to run, and the tech is probably the least essential slot.

In that case I agree with you. If you really need to shave a point off, this is where you find it. I was mostly asking people who wanted Kylo "maxed out" and chose PT over AO, which is something I find hard to understand.

If I want him maxed out I'm probably taking Threat Tracker - deferring my PTL until the combat phase will be very nice.

13 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

To be fair, there will be situations when PA would be better than AdvS. With PA you can perform actions after moving and still end up not being stressed, which may be better if you need to reposition with a high degree of precision or to go around an obstacle. You an also use PTL on the same round you perform a red maneuver - at the expense of getting double stressed of course. Still, I'd agree that most of the time sensors are the superior option.

Which brings us back to PT+AdvS - which gives you functionally almost the same, with all the additional benefits of AdvS over PA.

39 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

"Highly situational"? Since when is banking tokens situational? You get effectively 3 actions instead of 2 every time you don't spend focus. You don't spend focus:
- before the first engagement, which is often crucial,
- every time you disengage in order to avoid a potentially risky situation,
- every time you reposition in a way that puts you out of harm's way but doesn't allow you to shoot either,
- every time the enemy runs out of range or into a position you just can't get in arc this round,
- every time you just don't roll eye icons on your dice (or - in case of green dice - you just don't have to use those icons - or the dice for that matter).

Yes, to all of them. Those are pretty specific situations, which is why I called it "highly situational". If you go back to my previous post where I mentioned AdvOptics, I said this:
"I think AdvOptics is better than we give it credit at the moment, because it is at least +1 action economy, probably more often over the course of a game. Just think how often you have to clean up focus tokens. "
But similarly you could make a list for PT. Which is also highly situational.

I think PT is used less frequently but with higher impact, while AdvOptics is used more frequently with less impact in each single instance. Of course they can and will add up over the course of a game or tournament, hence my "think AdvOptics is better than we give it credit at the moment".

44 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Essentially the better your get at dodging fire and judging when to press on and when to disengage, the more benefit you're gonna see from using advanced optics.

That sounds correct to me. But there will be the situation where PT allows you to correct a mistake that's crucial. That's what I mean by less frequent but higher impact.

54 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Giving up on shots in order not to be shot at is a very common situation and I imagine it will be even more so on a ship that can't evade. That's why I find the idea of banking focus extremely appealing on Kylo and an order of magnitude less situational than PTs, which seem like they'd mostly be useful in situations that can be avoided altogether with good flying.

I agree, again, but the tech slot is the slot to save a point if you don't want to lose the title, which would be the next slot.

To make it short: I'm not extremely in favor of PT, certainly less than it sounds because I'm defending it so vehemently here. It's more that I see AdvOptics and PT as almost equal choices where PT comes out on top for me.

Oh look, yet another example where people declared a ship DOA that is probably going to be pretty freakin' good on the table. Color me shocked.

I do think Kylo has some natural predators. Oicunn will potentially give him some trouble. Conner nets could come back into vogue. PS10 and higher is a thing, and single reposition means Kylo is way less scary.

As a side note to those wondering-- Primed Thrusters is so amazing on Kylo because you can dial in literally any maneuver that isn't red to arc-dodge even if you already have a stress.

Conner Nets shouldn't be that much of a problem to AdvSens Kylo. He gets his action and clears his stress regardless, then he has to PTL after moving the following round but that should be manageable.

Pre nerf, I was really worried about him.

Now I'm hype

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

The other two already answered, but you don‘t gain anything when you already have AdvancedSensors. The effect of PA does the same but more limited as AdvSensors. Except there you get even more out of it.

This should also highlight how amazing AdvSensor is: PA and ThreatTracker do parts of it, but not everything and not as well.

With PA and PTL you can troll with full actions. With Advanced Sensors you can not.
But as mentioned, PT and AS you get nearly the same deal. You still lack the focus token though or loss PTL/Reposition. PA might be actually worth it as it is just one point more and trolls are great with full actions. But getting double stress would suck anyway.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Yeah, you don't stress yourself, so you are free to do those Talon Rolls, after which you can then still reposition. Turnaround maneuvers are very potent, being able to use actions after them is even better.

Oh and you aren't completely screwed in case of stresshog/mule/bug.

For me, Pattern Analyser just seems better in that case; you can use it to talon roll/boost, or you can use it to push the limit/clear stress on a green, for 1 point less than advanced sensors (yes, admittedly you miss out on pre-move boost or barrel roll)

To be honest, the Silencer has so many ways of achieving the same thing: elite, systems and tech is such a scarily awesome combination.