Okay, so this is gonna be a thread for post-battle findings, things I want to share for the community strategically, and generally my blog of Armada stuff for discussion, cuz I don't have my own blog or podcast.

Hoping y'all also feel welcome to jump on in, sit by the fire for a strategy chat, grab a beer, etc.

=)

(Yes I know there's an AAR section. No I don't care. It gets no traffic.)

Jian vs Dao

Got to try two different special interests today: @Ginkapo's Sato Destroyers vs my VVZZZ Sloane bombers I built for @Mikael Hasselstein.

Gonna start by hoping we can create some new standard terminology - Ease of use. (Stealing this shamelessly from WoWs LittleWhiteMouse.)
Skill Floor: - basic level of skill required to get good results - Simple / Casual / Challenging / Difficult
Skill Ceiling: - degree to which practice and skill pay off - Low / Moderate / High / Extreme

First off, Gink's Sato Destroyers is a work of art. Its a very good list, and it has definite strengths. I think playing this list makes people better players, its very demanding, but also very rewarding. However, its complexity gained from its versatility is offset by a loss of sheer power. In squadron AA, ship damage, and damage control ability are reduced compared to more stream-lined min-max builds. The most effective concept I found within this build was the Toryn AA flak, it really is capable of tearing squadrons to pieces. Coupled with the very hard hitting Mc30s (and 6 activations), you have a lot of material to work with.
Gink's Sato Destroyers is like fighting with the Chinese Jian, a medium sized, double-edged sword. Very elegant, very advanced, the possibilities of this weapon are endless, however, it requires a lot more practice than other options, say the spear, or the Chinese broadsaber, the Dao.
Skill Floor: Simple / Casual / Challenging / Difficult
Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / High / Extreme
SSNTTT Sato - Sato's Star Destroyers - s6strat b2 - Card view link

My VVZZZ Sloane bombers is a much more basic build. It goes for strong bomber power, classic levels of activations, relay/strat, squadron activators, simplicity, redundancy, mild versatility in AA, anti-ship, strategic. This build largely doesn't care what it faces, its just sets up VSDs on both flanks and squadrons in the middle.
Sloane bombers is like fighting with the Chinese Dao, the basic broadsaber. Very easy to pick up, 95% as effective as the Jian for quite a number of years of training. Its also very forgiving, being single-sided. Just for mental analogies, it has a bit more heft, more power.
Skill Floor: Simple / Casual / Challenging / Difficult
Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / High / Extreme
VVZZZ Sloane - Sloane bombers or AA - s10Strat b0 - FC - Card view link

Before playing, we discussed the lists and made guesses as to how it should theoretically play out. This removed what I suspect to be some parts of surprise/unfamiliarity with the Sato list and reminded us of what numerical values actually were (generally, don't be that afraid of Sato, the damage increase isn't that high).

I highly suspect that the Sato list bring so many unfamiliar concepts to the table that it can generally overwhelm a less prepared opponent. Forcing a different game-win-condition than expected or falling into the Toryn trap also generally is such a shock that one can ride this skill floor in certain games.

The Battle report:

We chose to have Sato pick to go 2nd, with Sloane choosing Sato's Opening Salvo. The assumption was that Sloane max squadrons would be difficult to overcome, and objectives would help. I think we made the wrong choice though, as having first player and choosing to contest a strategic objective from Sloane would have been a better choice.
Knowing that Sato wanted a very preset, formation-esque set up with 2 mc30s that needed room, Sloane piled the rocks close to Sato and near the middle, forcing deploying to one side of the healing station, instead of directly near it. This had a great impact, as Sato's fighters would survive and would have had an even easier time surviving if they were close to the station.

Sato deployed the 3 transport toryn trap, Salvation a little too far back (couldn't impact the Toryn trap), and one MC30 on each side, being the one thing sticking out.
Sloane deployed 2 gozantis in the middle with all the squadrons edging towards one side and then a VSD on each flank.

Sato pushed forward, but one MC30 took very large damage during Turns 2 3 from bombers, deciding to ignore Sato fighters and wait until they came into range. So, Sato's MC30s zoomed toward the middle, attempting to avoid being caught in Opening Salvo VSD front arcs.
The Toryn trap was able to move forward, and caught the Sloane bombers and starting very quickly picking them off with overlapping flak and now jumping them with fighters that were farther back.
The Sloane VSDs curved around and ended creating a facing crossfire towards the center, killing off all of the Toryn transports.
Game ended as the two VSDs durdled past each other at Speed 2, each facing the opposite direction, missing ramming each other by 2 mm. Nearly all Sloane squadrons were dead, 2 Gozantis were lost. All 3 transports and one Mc30 were lost, while Salvation and the other MC30 could not get good fire on anything important due to trying get to the back of the VSD and being chased by the other VSD. (Salvation also took 2 damage cards).

Post battle findings -

Gink's way of play probably fits him and his expertise very well. But for me, it was like flying with a glove for a shoe. Yes, my toes were very agile, but it was probably never completely replicable. It'd be fun to see a replay of exactly how he flew it. Knowing what the Sato list is capable makes it much easier to correctly force the right type of battle: over AA, or ship damage, or strategic. Sato's 6 fighters quickly become overtaxed trying to fill multiple roles or be rerouted to counter an enemy plan.

The two VSDs were actually rather good! They were simple to play, SFO gave huge redundancy, and did their zoning and damage quite well. Slowing flanking from each side made it easy to eventually get damage. However, be warned they do have their limitations. They have to be planned well, or you'll suddenly start seeing the efficacy drop from say 55% to 45%.
The two Lambdas made activating squadrons a cinch.

However, Sloane was kind of underwhelming. She was okay, had some uses, peeled off about 2 defense tokens. Only marginal impact. Tie bombers really don't benefit at all from Sloane, and this makes Imperial squadrons really awkward, even with flight Controllers added. Tie Bombers also basically did not benefit from BBC, all BBC really did was make it much more difficult to totally whiff. I was extremely disappointed in the Tie Bomber's performance. They also died super quickly to fighters and combined flak. I'm going to recommend getting some other bombers, but sadly, I think the rest are all Rogue. (Imperial squadrons are a really sad state of affairs.)
Most parts of the list though were redundantly solid and did not fail. But neither did they have much extra potential. In post-analysis, the Sloane bombers couldn't really have been commanded that much better for more effect. Though a bit more practice still would bring the list to higher rewards.

In contrast, the Toryn trap, which is a very common tactic for Rebel lists (I'm very familiar variants in Rieekan aceholes), is brought to a huge potential in Ginkapo's list. All the ships have blue dice for AA flak, and as you converge, more and more overlap within Toryn's multiplicative area. (Generally, I think multiplicative effects like Toryn are horrific in terms of game balance.) By sacrificing a MC30 (unavoidable bomber damage since you let your fighters wait and take second jump, otherwise, they can try jumping your fighters and staying out of overlapping fields by being in front of the transports), you get to utterly melt the whole squadron complement of most lists.

The MC30s would have done better with first player. This is largely player error. No analysis can be done. Sato's effect on firepower happened a few times, but really only did a few more hits damage. It generally felt like I was playing without an admiral, which makes me question the 32 points Sato cost and opportunity cost.

With a little luck though, its also not unexpected to see the Sato fighters start to fold as 4 hull fighters can be struck down in two attacks. Also the corralling effect of the 3 zone controls in Sloane make it difficult to find safe places for the transports. They really had a great single role in AA though, with a little opening salvo help (but that wasn't that impactful). They became overtaxed though, trying to AA, commanding squadrons, and also trying to Comms Net and maneuver safely. I largely found I could not use Comms Net effectively. These transports are trying to do like 4 different things with one action a turn.
Salvation also generally just netted me random unassured damage. The way I play probably lends itself better to the direct damage increase of Yavaris.
Lacking Comms Net freedom, no SFOs on MC30s, no real token generation for Salvation, made the list very difficult to respond. It felt clumsy and could not react well to sudden changes on the battlefield.
After a while also, the hammer blows of max squadron AA and giant VSD attacks also starts to wear on the Sato list. Its like the Jian can counter some strikes, but eventually some blocks are just hammered out of the way, and the finesse required to match the Dao's ease of use start to show.

In ending, I recommend both lists. I think there is more to be refined for the Sloane bombers, and with some good meditation, it becomes a very solid very robust build capable of adapting to almost any situation. Sato's Star Destroyers is great for learning to play better though, and the sky is the ceiling for getting better mileage out of that list. However, an opponent with a clear mind, good mathematical insights will make it considerably more difficult for you to capitalize on mistakes that Sato enjoys.

I'd probably drop Salvation to Yavaris and the comms nets for 6 extra points. Upgrade one Awing to Shara Bey, and then use the two last points from 398 to add SFOs to the MC30s. I'm also not sold on Sato, and for fun would try Mothma or Raddus. Generally, I want more AA also against max squadron fleets, which are a norm in many places. (And I didn't even play this vs a very good tuned Rebel multirole force)

Similarly, I want more AA for Sloane, I'd drop Gamma to Tie Bomber, and Jumpmaster to Tie Int, drop SFO to add Kallus to my 2nd VSD. I'd also very much consider dropping the Tie Bombers and BCC all together and getting a different squadron set that also does good anti-ship damage. BCC didn't help, and ER on my VSDs would make them huge AA threats.

Anyways, thanks for reading if you actually read through all of that.

Good read!

I think that if you are using Sloane, you don't want black dice bombers. You want squads that throw blue dice so they can leverage Sloane's ability (re-rolls of crits is great). This means you can use squads that are optimized for anti-squadron work and not have to compromise when you start to lay into enemy ships.

Sato is very difficult to get more than marginal utility out of. The stars need to align for him to truly shine (ship with large hull, multiple shots on that ship with nearby squad, etc.). MC30s do enough damage as it is and the torp version already have the two best dice (black/blue) so Sato doesn't offer much.

As you've demonstrated. The commanders gave marginal improvements at best. Seems that if the Rebs were using Dodonna and the Imps Motti they would have been better off?

I've run lists like the Sato one before, and I always feel supremely underwhelmed. The entire point of those MC30s is long range black crits, but I have been very disappointed in how hard it is to make one stick, even with rerolls. At long range you (probably) have to fight through Evades, and you're only rolling two (or three with CF) and then after that first turn anything without Evades is probably in blue range anyway. At that point, now all you have is two basically defenseless MC30s since there aren't any titles.

I bashed my head against the Sato wall for long enough to realize that with MC30 fleets, I'd always rather be running Rieekan or Mon Mothma and for sure get something useful out of my Commander.

57 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Sato is very difficult to get more than marginal utility out of. The stars need to align for him to truly shine (ship with large hull, multiple shots on that ship with nearby squad, etc.). MC30s do enough damage as it is and the torp version already have the two best dice (black/blue) so Sato doesn't offer much.

6 minutes ago, JauntyChapeau said:

I've run lists like the Sato one before, and I always feel supremely underwhelmed. The entire point of those MC30s is long range black crits, but I have been very disappointed in how hard it is to make one stick, even with rerolls. At long range you have to fight through Evades, and you're only rolling two (or three with CF). I bashed my head against the Sato wall for long enough to realize that with MC30 fleets, I'd always rather be running Rieekan or Mon Mothma and for sure get something useful out of my Commander.

Sato forces unconventional builds. I'd say Sato is the hardest commander to play because it requires a lot of skill and knowledge to have everything line up. This is why people tend to think Sato is ok or bad. They just don't know how to use him effectively.

You should not be focusing on the 1 apparent thing Sato has: long range crits. Rather, you should focus on pushing a tremendous amount of damage through with the extra black dice. MC30s and AFs are good at this because. CR90s and HH are alright and should support. Defiance is oddly a good choice and I've had success with the Sato doom pickle. Squads should be fast and annoying, and you need just enough to last you to the end of the game.

It's a juggling act. I've had games where Paragon killed an ISD over 2 rounds of attacks, and games where Defiance rolled a pitiful 3 damage on 6 dice.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

You should not be focusing on the 1 apparent thing Sato has: long range crits. Rather, you should focus on pushing a tremendous amount of damage through with the extra black dice. MC30s and AFs are good at this because. CR90s and HH are alright and should support.

But that's my overall issue with Sato - it often doesn't end up being a tremendous amount of extra damage. If you're not proccing APTs or ACMs a turn or two early, the increase in damage overall tends to be truly marginal. I'm not saying there isn't an increase in damage dealt, but when you start considering what other Commanders you could be running, Sato starts to pale in comparison. Rieekan gets you more attacks and ram damage, Mon Mothma keeps you alive to save points and get more attacks, Ackbar lets you throw more dice which is better than swapping red for black and Madine makes the MC30s super maneuverable and able to dance out of side/front arcs.

I'm afraid that he just doesn't do enough to be much more than a 'just for fun' Commander, and I think this is borne out by how little he shows up in SC/Regionals/Worlds Top 8s. Let me know if I'm wrong about that, but I really can't recall ever seeing him in a top 8.

51 minutes ago, JauntyChapeau said:

But that's my overall issue with Sato - it often doesn't end up being a tremendous amount of extra damage. If you're not proccing APTs or ACMs a turn or two early, the increase in damage overall tends to be truly marginal. I'm not saying there isn't an increase in damage dealt, but when you start considering what other Commanders you could be running, Sato starts to pale in comparison. Rieekan gets you more attacks and ram damage, Mon Mothma keeps you alive to save points and get more attacks, Ackbar lets you throw more dice which is better than swapping red for black and Madine makes the MC30s super maneuverable and able to dance out of side/front arcs.

I'm afraid that he just doesn't do enough to be much more than a 'just for fun' Commander, and I think this is borne out by how little he shows up in SC/Regionals/Worlds Top 8s. Let me know if I'm wrong about that, but I really can't recall ever seeing him in a top 8.

I'm not sure how changing 2 reds for 2 blacks is marginal compared to other commanders. Rieekan is a crutch for all ships except Yavaris and squads, only because Yavaris can kill nearly anything with 3 double taps. Sato increases damage over Ackbar by 0.5 on average, and Sato still allows for a double arc, further increasing damage by swapping a total of 4 dice. Like I said before, Sato is extremely difficult to play and he has one of the highest risk/reward based on how well you play. He's not like Konstantine where he's just bad in every fleet.

Sato came out in the middle of regionals early this year, so of course he won't do well. People didn't know how to play him. And worlds was dominated by Rieekan and a nerf soon followed. So we actually don't have any data, besides SC, for Sato's placement in tournaments.

I've got a tournament on Saturday and I'll be running Sato.

Ginks design idea is to actually remove the blues and use all blacks at close range if I understand correctly. This allows rerolls on the already taken OE plus in ginks theory the increase in black dice increases chances of black crit. IMO I think the increase of two more dice doesn’t really impact my rate of rolling Crits.

Note this is what I think ginkapo is thinking

I would argue that Dodonna or Mothma woulda worked about as fine. But this list is nicely worked out for Sato.

Omperiaks would have benefited from moffy J. But unlikely as much from Motti

Sorry if I missed it, but who actually won?

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Sato's 6 fighters quickly become overtaxed trying to fill multiple roles or be rerouted to counter an enemy plan.

I have found this as well. Those six squads are on the edge of not quite being enough. It helps a lot if you can position a VCX such that it gets caught in the movement of the enemy ship every turn and stays at distance 1, during its prolonged death from 8 hull.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

These transports are trying to do like 4 different things with one action a turn.
Salvation also generally just netted me random unassured damage. The way I play probably lends itself better to the direct damage increase of Yavaris.
Lacking Comms Net freedom, no SFOs on MC30s, no real token generation for Salvation, made the list very difficult to respond. It felt clumsy and could not react well to sudden changes on the battlefield.

Yup. Deployment must be near on perfect. No real second chances with this list. I am comfortable with that but it took a fair bit of practice to be so.

I also disagree that the list has traded out ship power. 2 MC30s and Salvation is no pushover for damage output.

Switch dice to all black against most ships, except flotillas where you use 4 blue 1 black.

All the times I've had satovation go off on me, like twice, I just braced it off, didn't even have ecm. Is H9's worth it here? CF plus token, could have 3 blacks, with a reroll, decent chance of activating h9... Have intensify firepower in there and guarantee that red can activate H9

6 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

All the times I've had satovation go off on me, like twice, I just braced it off, didn't even have ecm. Is H9's worth it here? CF plus token, could have 3 blacks, with a reroll, decent chance of activating h9... Have intensify firepower in there and guarantee that red can activate H9

What are the odds of being able to use h9s with 1 red dice?

How does them bracing affect your other attacks against that ship? Does it matter if you attack before or after Salvation? If you do 5 damage before Salvation shoots, will your opponent use their brace?

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

What are the odds of being able to use h9s with 1 red dice?

5/8 of the time, assuming you're comfortable giving up the double-hit or crit results to use it (which is iffy). If you're not, then 2/8 of the time, which is horrible.

Just now, Snipafist said:

5/8 of the time, assuming you're comfortable giving up the double-hit or crit results to use it (which is iffy). If you're not, then 2/8 of the time, which is horrible.

Yup. Instead use the Sato traffic light.

1 red, 1 blue, 1 black with a concentrate fire to be added where required.

Well 85% chance with cf token to use h9.

It's just when I invest in a game plan I go all in. If I'm going to take Sato, a 70 point ship, pay all that opportunity cost, and all that setup cost, then I want the reward to be worth it. H9 can help protect that investment.

At least Intel officer?

8 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

At least Intel officer?

If you're going Sato Salvation, this is probably the correct answer. Slap a turbolaser upgrade in there that adds some dice - QBTs are my preference usually on gunship Nebs, but there's a good argument to be made for Spinals. Depends on your meta and how you like to run them.

8 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Well 85% chance with cf token to use h9.

It's just when I invest in a game plan I go all in. If I'm going to take Sato, a 70 point ship, pay all that opportunity cost, and all that setup cost, then I want the reward to be worth it. H9 can help protect that investment.

At least Intel officer?

So they discard brace, and then what? Do you have a second big attack? Its a much better suggestion but it often doesnt seem to actually have value.

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So they discard brace, and then what? Do you have a second big attack? Its a much better suggestion but it often doesnt seem to actually have value.

So long as they discarded their brace, does it matter that you don't have a second big attack that turn? It immediately doubles all future attacks.

EDIT: Furthermore, it acts a deterrent - they most likely won't brace it, meaning that you allow your current attack to go through. Either way it is a win.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm not sure how changing 2 reds for 2 blacks is marginal compared to other commanders. Rieekan is a crutch for all ships except Yavaris and squads, only because Yavaris can kill nearly anything with 3 double taps. Sato increases damage over Ackbar by 0.5 on average, and Sato still allows for a double arc, further increasing damage by swapping a total of 4 dice. Like I said before, Sato is extremely difficult to play and he has one of the highest risk/reward based on how well you play. He's not like Konstantine where he's just bad in every fleet.

Sato came out in the middle of regionals early this year, so of course he won't do well. People didn't know how to play him. And worlds was dominated by Rieekan and a nerf soon followed. So we actually don't have any data, besides SC, for Sato's placement in tournaments.

I've got a tournament on Saturday and I'll be running Sato.

I'm just looking at average damage results of red and black dice. The average damage for a red is .75 and the average for a black die is 1.00, so for every two black dice you're swapping in you're picking up .5 damage on average. I consider that to be marginal compared to other Commander's effects.

Also, I'm not sure you're looking at the Ackbar comparison correctly - 3 black (assuming a CF) has an average damage of 3, while 5 red (CF also) has an average damage of 3.75. Setting aside the possibility of double arcs, adding more dice of any color is strictly better than swapping dice out for black. You may be right about the double arc, but that's situational and the likelihood of a double arc is very hard to factor into damage calculations. It's entirely possible this is where your comments on player skill come in, but my reply would be that if you're a good enough player that you're guaranteeing yourself double arcs every turn with MC30s, then your choice of Commander is likely fairly irrelevant and you're going to beat me anyway.

I'm interested in how you do with your Sato list! If you can, I'd appreciate an AAR.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

If you do 5 damage before Salvation shoots, will your opponent use their brace?

This right here highlights an understanding of Salvation's purpose. It is probably one of the swingiest ships in the game, but your enemy really has to account for the worst case out of it, because it's very possible to get that holy crap! roll. So you never open with Salvation hoping for the best; you threaten with it and make the other guy make his decisions while having to account for the Salvation worst-case.

Sloane won... by 7 MOV... 6-5. Both sides were lucky and luck was average. But I think I coulda played Sato better.

There really is no room left in Gink's build. Its very effective given the points.
As we've both stated, those 6 squadrons though are getting to the very cusp of not being enough, hence why I go for Shara, but I also admit I wasn't good with using the Comms Nets because of how I felt the transports HAD to be perfectly placed, otherwise they needed their own commands.

Basically, there isn't a lot of room for error. You could probably have even better games, but if your opponent is smart and doesn't fall for tricks and isn't a potato without mathematical understandings of simple dice luck, his/her intellect will make the game much much more even, as I think the Sato list relies a lot on deception. (Sloane list does too, but its the same deception each game, what do you pounce on, what do you bomb or do you AA?)

5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This right here highlights an understanding of Salvation's purpose. It is probably one of the swingiest ships in the game, but your enemy really has to account for the worst case out of it, because it's very possible to get that holy crap! roll. So you never open with Salvation hoping for the best; you threaten with it and make the other guy make his decisions while having to account for the Salvation worst-case.

On sato:

I will bid against the holy crap roll if I know the odds are in my favor. There's also a lot of hull on the VSDs so they can take a miscalculation easily. I see this a lot in many many games. In some games torpedoes are used as "area denial" if they don't hit. This is largely bs. If you overestimate an opponent you lose the chance to make a devastating stroke where they expect you to not dare to go.

Imo, in this game, Salvation wasn't very useful. Because of the VSD flanks, there was never a place you could put the Neb where it wasn't showing a side. (Except straight in the middle, which is what I did, but it caused it to have to fly fast and out of position.)
I lost firing chances with one Mc30 completely due to dodging the VSDs, but having played VSDs, I really do feel like getting close range to a VSD is really not just a threat, but a real death sentence.

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I lost firing chances with one Mc30 completely due to dodging the VSDs, but having played VSDs, I really do feel like getting close range to a VSD is really not just a threat, but a real death sentence.

I wasn't there so I don't know the exact scenario, but... this is generally not true. Particularly when we're talking about VSDs with no rerolls, no XI7, and out-activated, you should be perfectly safe parking at medium range and forcing the VSDs into double arcs, even if they're picking up that extra blue from QBT. Even at close range, a VSD with no rerolls and no XI7 is pretty unlikely to one-shot an MC30 from full.

Are you sure you're not equating "down to 1 or 2 hull remaining" to "a death sentence"? Almost dead ain't dead.

Again, it's entirely possible that the situation warranted defensive play due to other factors--it really doesn't sound like you're an incompetent player, despite all the crap I give you, so please don't take this as disrespect. But from the description here, it sounds like you violated Article 2 of the MC30 Manifesto:

On 1/25/2017 at 8:36 PM, Ardaedhel said:

2) Be aggressive. This one is hard to teach. You can show up with it; you can get it from painful, losing experience (like I did); or you just don't have it. Of all the ships in this game, the shrimp is the high-risk/high-reward choice. But you must be bold with it. It can't handle sustained punishment at all, but it can weather short bursts like no other. Don't be afraid to dive face-first into that Rhymerball if you have Mon Mothma or Admonition to fall back on. Don't be scared of that ISD1 without rerolls or XI7. Anything that doesn't one-shot you on approach, you can pull their shirt over their heads, give them a wedgie, and suckerpunch them before you run off. Sure, you're going to get hurt. But hurt ain't dead, which is what the other guy's going to be.

14 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I wasn't there so I don't know the exact scenario, but... this is generally not true. Particularly when we're talking about VSDs with no rerolls, no XI7, and out-activated, you should be perfectly safe parking at medium range and forcing the VSDs into double arcs, even if they're picking up that extra blue from QBT. Even at close range, a VSD with no rerolls and no XI7 is pretty unlikely to one-shot an MC30 from full.

Are you sure you're not equating "down to 1 or 2 hull remaining" to "a death sentence"? Almost dead ain't dead.

Again, it's entirely possible that the situation warranted defensive play due to other factors--it really doesn't sound like you're an incompetent player, despite all the crap I give you, so please don't take this as disrespect. But from the description here, it sounds like you violated Article 2 of the MC30 Manifesto:

I would be more likely to blame my caution. This was only one game. So I'm out of precision practice -> a temporary form of incompetence.

Yes, being in mid range is okay. But I'd rather not be double arc'ed + QBT on BOTH shots.

But being close range to the front arc becomes a huge loss in efficiency - See below.

The problem is not that the VSD will literally kill it, but with very maneuverable bomber AND another VSD and 3 gozantis throwing opening salvo, there was a VEYR high chance of dying to subsequent shots. And it was really hard to cue up engineering at the right time since no SFOs. Basically, I was able to take out the first Mc30 by starting with bombing, and then following it up with shots from something else before it was able to safely close the distance. 10 squadron max + BCC is no joke.

I played the sato list the other day. Opening salvo and sato allowed lots of black dice at medium range. Got crits. Shot the Shields off am isd before it tore up an mc30 and the moved into double arc of the other. Toryn aa was out of place so i concentrated fire and got 4 black from a gr75 into the isd. 5 ships that profit from opening salvo, 2 with black crits, is strong.

I am curios to play the other objectives. The list seems strongly based around them.

In other games Sato seemed useful when lots of carriers concentrated fire. 8 black dice where there should be blue or red is like buying dtt for all those carriers.

The long range black crits by contrast are hard to pull off since the squadrons have to move ahead and die, and then the crits get evaded mostly. Using the mc30 like in ginks list felt more reliable. The probability of crits goes from 58% to 76% (3 vs 5 dice) before rerolls. Damage average goes from 0.75 for a blue to 1.25 for a rerolled black.

Similar statiscs will be true for the mc75s frontarc. If it can take apt and ordnance experts, sato giving it blacks on the side arcs will be really good.