Currently Destiny is somewhere in the middle. What I mean by that is this: Destiny is collectible but the competitive FFG tournaments treat it like an LCG.

This is an issue for Destiny. A magic worlds win is $50,000. A pokemon worlds win is $25,000; as cash or scholarship. A Destiny worlds win is trinkets that you might be able to sell on the secondary market for <$1,000.

Cash prize pools would be a positive impact for the game. More people would play because of the pay back incentive.

Maybe FFG will do this in the future, but why buy the cow when you are already geting the milk for free? Why add cash prizes when people are already spending and playing like there are cash prizes? It really depends on where FFG wants Destiny to fit in with the other top CCGs.

I agree when people say, "this is a CCG! Treat it like one." I just want FFG to treat it like one too. Right now it is CCG for the consumer and LCG for FFG.

K.

I mean. I'v never played magic and when i look around my lgs and compare magic players to players doing other stuff, the magic players look like they're having less fun.

There are a lot of them though, and to quote my flgs owner "magic players keep the lights on".

Tbh £50,000 prizes and a proper grand prix circuit(this is the terminology used in magic i think?) wouldn't affect me as long as i can still go to my local store and play casually for trinkets... FFG can fill their boots (and their coffers, the entry fees for large prize tournaments are surely quite high?)

57 minutes ago, Stu35 said:

K.

I mean. I'v never played magic and when i look around my lgs and compare magic players to players doing other stuff, the magic players look like they're having less fun.

There are a lot of them though, and to quote my flgs owner "magic players keep the lights on".

Tbh £50,000 prizes and a proper grand prix circuit(this is the terminology used in magic i think?) wouldn't affect me as long as i can still go to my local store and play casually for trinkets... FFG can fill their boots (and their coffers, the entry fees for large prize tournaments are surely quite high?)

Magic has become the "Pro" game of the gaming scene. Its not really about the fun anymore its more about what kind of tournaments you can attend and what you can make attending them. Magic is at this point like playing Pro Football or Basketball, the players arnt really there for the fun they are there for the prizes.

FFG has NEVER been about making the tournaments about Money or prizes you cant get anywehere else. Yes the Alt arts are cool but they arnt literally the ONLY way to get them, see WizKids and how they do Heroclix and how they used to do Star Trek Attack Wing where prize kit ships would sell for 50+ because they where ONLY available in the kit. FFG seems to be more about the having fun at the local level than the "Pro" scene. They have major tournaments but thats not where their focus primarily is.

I think I saw some interview with FFG about this very topic. FFG was quite happy being different. Most magic players simply do not participate in those cash tournaments just like most Destiny players don't go to worlds or even regionals. For most people it is simply irrelevant even if they do pay attention to what goes on at these competitions.

What FFG does need more of is prize support at the local game store level.

41 minutes ago, Mep said:

I think I saw some interview with FFG about this very topic. FFG was quite happy being different. Most magic players simply do not participate in those cash tournaments just like most Destiny players don't go to worlds or even regionals. For most people it is simply irrelevant even if they do pay attention to what goes on at these competitions.

What FFG does need more of is prize support at the local game store level.

Easiest thing in my opinion is double the card prizes in the kits. I dont mean double the number of the ones already in the kit but have 2 different events as prizes, lets say 12-15 of each in a kit, then also add a full art of a generic character like Tie Pilots or Night Sisters. So you have 6 choice prizes, 2 named characters, 2 generic characters, 2 token sets, as competitive prizes and then you have 24-30 copies of Events, 2 different ones for people to choose from.

Well, I probably won't ever play draft because A: if I happen to pull more than on Legendary in my six packs (have gone 3/6 before) I probably don't want to lose the value of those cards. But secondly and actually the main point I intended to make, is once I have my full play set, what justification is there to spend $18 on six packs plus cost of the local tournament if I am still playing for tokens and alt art cards that I could get in a standard game?

Edit: admittedly, this is my first attempt at playing a CCG other than Magic when I was 9, so I don't know how fun a draft or sealed tournament would be.

In CCGs, I much prefer prize cards, especially the participation reward, to be tournament exclusive playable cards. I understand the pros and cons to this, but it's a better solution than alternate art or straight money payout to me. The prize cards need to be carefully balanced to avoid bad experiences for new players that have not acquired them, but with the three tournament formats and an aggressive rotation policy, it's something FFG could do.

Does money prizes attract the wrong crowd? I do not want to play someone that's there for money rather then fun.

no thank you

1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:

Does money prizes attract the wrong crowd? I do not want to play someone that's there for money rather then fun.

no thank you

It's called a tournament. Tournament should be fun... but Players are seeking victory. When aiming for pure fun without caring about victory, it's called "play for fun with your friends".

Chak

Here's the real question: What is the most viable long term for the future of the game? Who will financially sustain the game? It's all well and good to say you want Destiny to be a more casual game, but it has to be sustainable as a business venture.

At this point, Legacies will be my last set, and I'm not even 100% committed to that. Why? Because the game costs too **** much for what I get out of it. I enjoy playing it (and will continue to play it casually) but I'm playing two LCGs at this stage, both of which I probably enjoy more than Destiny and which come in at a fraction of the cost. I'm not alone in this; I know a lot of people who have already checked out or are planning to. And these are not casual players, these are people who have played other FFG products and are willing to spend a decent amount of money to be competitive. What they aren't is the 'hardcore' CCG crowd. And this leads to another issue with these kind of players - if they are buying in to Destiny, there's a good chance they are buying out of something else. And due to things like the franchise, there's a decent chance that they are buying out of another FFG game. Someone who takes up Destiny buy gives up X-Wing? Not actually that good for FFG in the long term (though not specifically an issue for Destiny, until someone comes along to cannibalize it).

So what about the really casual crowd, the 'buy a few packs here and there', kitchen table players? Honestly, I'm not convinced they can sustain the game, simply because you don't get that much in a single pack of Destiny compared to what you need to build a deck, and I don't think you'll keep those players. Lets assume most decks run around 15 dice cards including characters - you need to buy 15 packs to even be able to field a decent deck, assuming every single dice card you pull is useable (they won't be, so in reality you probably need closer to 30, and bad character pulls can lead to you needing much more). That's a significant investment for a casual player. There are introductory products that help (while *still* not give you a full deck) - but honestly, I imagine the number of casual players who buy these as a complete game and then never touch the CCG aspect in any significant way is going to be pretty **** high. Now draft/sealed is often a saving grace for these kind of players - but again, Destiny's format leads to a high (granted, probably one/two time only) entry fee on top of actually buying your product. It feels like it's the kind of thing people are likely to do as an 'event, rather than as a regular occurrence that it would need to be to help sustain the game as a money stream.

So....Based on all that, it feels like the last major customer base is the hardcore CCG crowd. The people who are willing to put down a couple of hundred dollars for a set that will rotate in a year's time. But right now, why would these people even look at Destiny? If FFG seriously wants to grow the game sustainably, these are the guys FFG needs to target, and that means putting their big boy pants on and treating the game seriously.

Of course, the alternative is that maybe FFG just wants to make money now, and is happy to burn the game in a year or two and replace it with something else. Or maybe I'm underestimating gamer's willingness to part with large amounts of money for comparatively little gain in the long term.

15 hours ago, GamerGuy1984 said:

Easiest thing in my opinion is double the card prizes in the kits. I dont mean double the number of the ones already in the kit but have 2 different events as prizes, lets say 12-15 of each in a kit, then also add a full art of a generic character like Tie Pilots or Night Sisters. So you have 6 choice prizes, 2 named characters, 2 generic characters, 2 token sets, as competitive prizes and then you have 24-30 copies of Events, 2 different ones for people to choose from.

They certainly could make the kits more interesting. My problem is they are quarterly kits, not monthly.

@Abyss Yeah, many people were sad that this game was not an LCG. CCGs are too much money and now it seems they could be made into a form of gambling. Magic has been crashing hard for several years now, so it is possible the CCG fad is finally going out of style. Still there is a big desire to play games and to do so socially and in person, so something will need to rise up and replace the CCGs that dominate the physical gaming communities. Until something worthy does replace them, I don't see CCGs leaving the face or our planet.

I agree that Destiny is a CCG from a cost perspective to the player base but an LCG from the manufacturer's point of view.

In order to sustain big growth there needs to be a good incentive for a player to shell out a few hundred dollars per set.

As has been said, other CCG systems have mega prizes for their big events, and there is a proper qualifying system to make it to those big events.

Destiny uses the 'fastest mouse click first' method for the top events, which leads to ridiculous scenarios where a hardcore veteran is up against Timmy with a starter deck.

I have spent a lot to have a full playset thus far and the rewards for that spending is really limited. I have won a few events and come 2-3rd in a few others.

The prizes are pathetic. Alt art is ok, but they need to be high value legendaries to make it worthwhile.

As Tiny Grimes pointed out a few months ago, even if you win all the events in a local area you still need to buy all the cards yourself!?

Empire was my last set. Even that was a grudge buy as I had pre-ordered and didn't want to leave the store in the lurch.

TTS gives me access to all the cards, a comfortable place to play against friends and guys from around the world for a fraction of the cost.

Going forward I will save my dollars.

3 hours ago, Abyss said:

Here's the real question: What is the most viable long term for the future of the game? Who will financially sustain the game? It's all well and good to say you want Destiny to be a more casual game, but it has to be sustainable as a business venture.

At this point, Legacies will be my last set, and I'm not even 100% committed to that. Why? Because the game costs too **** much for what I get out of it. I enjoy playing it (and will continue to play it casually) but I'm playing two LCGs at this stage, both of which I probably enjoy more than Destiny and which come in at a fraction of the cost. I'm not alone in this; I know a lot of people who have already checked out or are planning to. And these are not casual players, these are people who have played other FFG products and are willing to spend a decent amount of money to be competitive. What they aren't is the 'hardcore' CCG crowd. And this leads to another issue with these kind of players - if they are buying in to Destiny, there's a good chance they are buying out of something else. And due to things like the franchise, there's a decent chance that they are buying out of another FFG game. Someone who takes up Destiny buy gives up X-Wing? Not actually that good for FFG in the long term (though not specifically an issue for Destiny, until someone comes along to cannibalize it).

So what about the really casual crowd, the 'buy a few packs here and there', kitchen table players? Honestly, I'm not convinced they can sustain the game, simply because you don't get that much in a single pack of Destiny compared to what you need to build a deck, and I don't think you'll keep those players. Lets assume most decks run around 15 dice cards including characters - you need to buy 15 packs to even be able to field a decent deck, assuming every single dice card you pull is useable (they won't be, so in reality you probably need closer to 30, and bad character pulls can lead to you needing much more). That's a significant investment for a casual player. There are introductory products that help (while *still* not give you a full deck) - but honestly, I imagine the number of casual players who buy these as a complete game and then never touch the CCG aspect in any significant way is going to be pretty **** high. Now draft/sealed is often a saving grace for these kind of players - but again, Destiny's format leads to a high (granted, probably one/two time only) entry fee on top of actually buying your product. It feels like it's the kind of thing people are likely to do as an 'event, rather than as a regular occurrence that it would need to be to help sustain the game as a money stream.

So....Based on all that, it feels like the last major customer base is the hardcore CCG crowd. The people who are willing to put down a couple of hundred dollars for a set that will rotate in a year's time. But right now, why would these people even look at Destiny? If FFG seriously wants to grow the game sustainably, these are the guys FFG needs to target, and that means putting their big boy pants on and treating the game seriously.

Of course, the alternative is that maybe FFG just wants to make money now, and is happy to burn the game in a year or two and replace it with something else. Or maybe I'm underestimating gamer's willingness to part with large amounts of money for comparatively little gain in the long term.

LCG OR CCG will not garantee the future of this game. More complex mechanics and different theme card along other feature will. The actual problem I have is (And our playgroup): Game is too simple, eventually I feel like more new characters will translate into: "Same stuff as 2 sets ago, but slightly stronger". I put a lot of hope in new design team.

As for CCG vs LCG, I tought this debate was over. Player getting into an CCG don't want their game turned into a boardgame. The moment FFG turn this game into a LCG, I'll sell my stuff, along most of players at local store. It is also too late to attract LCG players.

I'm currently looking for draft starters. Lots of players here are too. Since 90% of tournament players here "have everything", a draft or sealed will be more than welcome (I'm feeling like 50% of tournaments here should be sealed/draft).

Chak

11 minutes ago, Alphastealer said:

I agree that Destiny is a CCG from a cost perspective to the player base but an LCG from the manufacturer's point of view.

In order to sustain big growth there needs to be a good incentive for a player to shell out a few hundred dollars per set.

As has been said, other CCG systems have mega prizes for their big events, and there is a proper qualifying system to make it to those big events.

Destiny uses the 'fastest mouse click first' method for the top events, which leads to ridiculous scenarios where a hardcore veteran is up against Timmy with a starter deck.

I have spent a lot to have a full playset thus far and the rewards for that spending is really limited. I have won a few events and come 2-3rd in a few others.

The prizes are pathetic. Alt art is ok, but they need to be high value legendaries to make it worthwhile.

As Tiny Grimes pointed out a few months ago, even if you win all the events in a local area you still need to buy all the cards yourself!?

Empire was my last set. Even that was a grudge buy as I had pre-ordered and didn't want to leave the store in the lurch.

TTS gives me access to all the cards, a comfortable place to play against friends and guys from around the world for a fraction of the cost.

Going forward I will save my dollars.

Tournaments: I care little about prizes, but little enough to go to tournaments. They should eventually consider playing 3 match against players. 1 match is ridiculously short and a little bit random.

TTS: Don't care. Game is not fun enough by itself to justifie TTS. Why I like SW destiny? 34% Physical dice and card in my hands, 33% collection, 33% the game itself.

Chak

I think part of the problem was the players who got into the game early (me included). The card pool started small, and so a lot of people just bought enough product that they had two of everything, and have kept that up (and are starting to feel burnt out). I know that I, too, have bought at least 15 boxes of boosters and no doubt contributed to this effect. So it was actually the players, not the company, that treated the game like an LCG (although I'm still not convinced Lukas knew what he was doing). It hasn't been a trading card game for a while, because nobody even still needs to trade for anything except maybe a few legendaries. Going forward, a few very wealthy people will probably have the Team Covenant Saga Set Subscription, but the others will have to settle for not owning everything, and then the game will start feeling like a low-cost CCG rather than a high-cost LCG.

19 hours ago, Ywingscum said:

Does money prizes attract the wrong crowd? I do not want to play someone that's there for money rather then fun.

no thank you

When money gets involved people will only play what wins. Any experimentation or out of the box thinking goes out the window and its play exactly whats Meta or simply lose money. Ive been playing games for the better part of 20 years now and any game where the prizes where money or exclusive cards/items had the worst crowds. Where as any that Ive played where it was alternate stuff to what you could just buy or to where the prize was "prestige/bragging rights" Ive found attract the most laid back and fun people to play against.

Competition is all well and good for testing ones abilities but it can be taken WAY to far and suck the fun out of games.

9 hours ago, Abyss said:

Here's the real question: What is the most viable long term for the future of the game? Who will financially sustain the game? It's all well and good to say you want Destiny to be a more casual game, but it has to be sustainable as a business venture.

At this point, Legacies will be my last set, and I'm not even 100% committed to that. Why? Because the game costs too **** much for what I get out of it. I enjoy playing it (and will continue to play it casually) but I'm playing two LCGs at this stage, both of which I probably enjoy more than Destiny and which come in at a fraction of the cost. I'm not alone in this; I know a lot of people who have already checked out or are planning to. And these are not casual players, these are people who have played other FFG products and are willing to spend a decent amount of money to be competitive. What they aren't is the 'hardcore' CCG crowd. And this leads to another issue with these kind of players - if they are buying in to Destiny, there's a good chance they are buying out of something else. And due to things like the franchise, there's a decent chance that they are buying out of another FFG game. Someone who takes up Destiny buy gives up X-Wing? Not actually that good for FFG in the long term (though not specifically an issue for Destiny, until someone comes along to cannibalize it).

So what about the really casual crowd, the 'buy a few packs here and there', kitchen table players? Honestly, I'm not convinced they can sustain the game, simply because you don't get that much in a single pack of Destiny compared to what you need to build a deck, and I don't think you'll keep those players. Lets assume most decks run around 15 dice cards including characters - you need to buy 15 packs to even be able to field a decent deck, assuming every single dice card you pull is useable (they won't be, so in reality you probably need closer to 30, and bad character pulls can lead to you needing much more). That's a significant investment for a casual player. There are introductory products that help (while *still* not give you a full deck) - but honestly, I imagine the number of casual players who buy these as a complete game and then never touch the CCG aspect in any significant way is going to be pretty **** high. Now draft/sealed is often a saving grace for these kind of players - but again, Destiny's format leads to a high (granted, probably one/two time only) entry fee on top of actually buying your product. It feels like it's the kind of thing people are likely to do as an 'event, rather than as a regular occurrence that it would need to be to help sustain the game as a money stream.

So....Based on all that, it feels like the last major customer base is the hardcore CCG crowd. The people who are willing to put down a couple of hundred dollars for a set that will rotate in a year's time. But right now, why would these people even look at Destiny? If FFG seriously wants to grow the game sustainably, these are the guys FFG needs to target, and that means putting their big boy pants on and treating the game seriously.

Of course, the alternative is that maybe FFG just wants to make money now, and is happy to burn the game in a year or two and replace it with something else. Or maybe I'm underestimating gamer's willingness to part with large amounts of money for comparatively little gain in the long term.

The Hardcore will NEVER look outside of Magic The Gathering, its been around to long is to established and its tournaments are just to big already. Every single card game that has come out over the last almost 30 years at this point has either withered and died or has a EXTREMETLY small/niche group. The only two that broke out where Pokemon and Yugioh, but the reason there is that they where as my second point makes a niche group compared to Magic. Pokemon/Yugioh where marketed as a Childrens game to a certain extent, Magic is aimed at the late teens early 20s so there is little to no overlap in their target audience.

Aiming for "Hardcore" anything in gaming at this point is impossible as there are already games with 30 years of history that simply dominate those areas.

Also for you yes the game is giving you little return, as it seems your looking for prizes, whether that be money or cards you cant get anywhere else. I think the large majority, myself included, just want a Star Wars game with good mechanics thats fun to play.

2 hours ago, GamerGuy1984 said:

The Hardcore will NEVER look outside of Magic The Gathering, its been around to long is to established and its tournaments are just to big already. Every single card game that has come out over the last almost 30 years at this point has either withered and died or has a EXTREMETLY small/niche group. The only two that broke out where Pokemon and Yugioh, but the reason there is that they where as my second point makes a niche group compared to Magic. Pokemon/Yugioh where marketed as a Childrens game to a certain extent, Magic is aimed at the late teens early 20s so there is little to no overlap in their target audience.

Aiming for "Hardcore" anything in gaming at this point is impossible as there are already games with 30 years of history that simply dominate those areas.

Also for you yes the game is giving you little return, as it seems your looking for prizes, whether that be money or cards you cant get anywhere else. I think the large majority, myself included, just want a Star Wars game with good mechanics thats fun to play.

I'm definitely not looking for prizes - I'm 100% in the LCG/FFG fan demographic. Those kind of players are used to not having prizes, so they are probably fine with that aspect....but most of them aren't used to paying hundreds of dollars every 3-4 months for something that they'll only be able to use competitively for a year or two. Yes, some of those players will be happy to wear the cost, that just care about having a 'Star Wars game with good mechanics that's fun to play'. But for a lot it will simply be too expensive, what will cause them to leave the game, and at that point FFG needs to find someone to fill that gap (and pay to support the game). To my mind, it's either CCG players or casuals, and I don't think the game supports casual players as the main financial base to support the game.

People really gotta learn how to buy singles rather than collect entire sets

Anyway, I don't feel the need for ridiculous prize support, but all my LGS offer store credit if the turnout is big enough (for any tournies they run, even xwing)

In this case it would translates into 1-3 packs of the latest set depending on where you place

3 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I think part of the problem was the players who got into the game early (me included). The card pool started small, and so a lot of people just bought enough product that they had two of everything, and have kept that up (and are starting to feel burnt out).

I think this really is the case. Think about it: Standard will be the main competitive format and will involve 2 full "Sets" (1 Hero/Villain Starter Set + 3 Booster Releases + anything else during that run), with each Set coming out throughout the year correct? That's going to be nearly 500 cards each year and 1000 cards by the end of the "Set" with a potential of nearly 1000 cards to choose from at any one event as rotation continues. No one can really buy/pull one copy of all 1000 cards that are legal in Standard without dropping nearly $1000 let alone 2 of. So at the beginning, it did feel like an LCG because of the limited card pool and the little information from FFG on rotation and future plans. And you could get 2 of every card and become competitive because that was all there was. But now we have rotation; we have information as to their plans for the game each year; and as more sets are released and new booster boxes are released, I think you'll see the competitive players only buying the truly "competitive" cards as singles and crafting those "Tier 1" decks specifically. Meanwhile casuals will either draft or buy a few booster packs or even a box (Maybe more if they're starting out) and actually do trading for those cards they really want.

I imagine we'll see people start to choose one or the other once Legacies and Rivals/Drafting comes out. At that point people will have to choose (myself included) which way they will buy and play because they too will have realized that they will burn out otherwise.

Really excited for sealed and very much hope it picks up steam

Limited formats are just a great opportunity to expand your collection while also competing within the confines of the cards you pull. It let's you flex your deckbuilding creativity and gives you a real appreciation of cards you'd normally completely disregard.

Sad my LGS only had monthly MTG sealed events to their weekly drafts, though. Sucks to have to pass up high value cards.

People are operating under this weird idea that playing Destiny, at any level, involves obtaining a playset of each set.

That's just ludicrous. People don't buy CCGs that way. It's an untenable way of purchasing that was never intended.

2 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

People are operating under this weird idea that playing Destiny, at any level, involves obtaining a playset of each set.

That's just ludicrous. People don't buy CCGs that way. It's an untenable way of purchasing that was never intended.

Destiny is small enough of a game right now to actually want a play set of most things since people like to try out different decks. There is nothing weird about it.

5 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

People are operating under this weird idea that playing Destiny, at any level, involves obtaining a playset of each set.

That's just ludicrous. People don't buy CCGs that way. It's an untenable way of purchasing that was never intended.

I think that bolded part if flat out wrong. Destiny is from a company known for making games where you get everything, and uses one of the biggest franchises in the world. I think the plan was ABSOLUTELY to try and get people to collect everything.

I'd agree that collecting full playsets is unnecessary for most players, but do you really tell people 'You don't need to have Vader/Luke/Han/Chewie/Leia/every other main to enjoy the game' and expect that to be the end of it? Ultimately the cards that people really want for fanboy reasons are going to be Rares and more often Legendaries. No one's buying the game to play Bala-Tik and Snap.

13 hours ago, Abyss said:

I think that bolded part if flat out wrong. Destiny is from a company known for making games where you get everything, and uses one of the biggest franchises in the world. I think the plan was ABSOLUTELY to try and get people to collect everything.

I'd agree that collecting full playsets is unnecessary for most players, but do you really tell people 'You don't need to have Vader/Luke/Han/Chewie/Leia/every other main to enjoy the game' and expect that to be the end of it? Ultimately the cards that people really want for fanboy reasons are going to be Rares and more often Legendaries. No one's buying the game to play Bala-Tik and Snap.

They took a model (CCG) that yields easily discernable purchasing habits for people buying into games of that model given its history and available examples . They did nothing to their game to alter that model. It wouldn't make any sense to expect let alone intend for people's purchasing habits to be different then what you'd normally expect from people that play CCGs. Especially when intending for people to purchase everything sets you up for failure because you know people can't sustain purchasing at that rate. The whole idea doesn't make sense.

I don't get where you are pulling the main characters comment from. Have I mentioned anything about not looking to acquire main characters? If you're being selective about the characters you'd prefer to play, you're already not falling into the play = playset trap that's being discussed.

Because it is absolutely weird to have people asserting that playing this game means they have to own everything. You don't, not even close. Not even if you want to travel to play this game at conventions. Not even if you want to switch up decks constantly. Not even if you want the marquee characters only.

There are absolutely people that buy every single card that has ever been put out for other CCGs, but you'd never use them as an example of a typical player. I'm sure there are people that buy a full possible compliment of X-wing expansions, but you'd never call that typical.

People, that aren't so wealthy as to not care about money, do not play these games collecting that much product. You don't need to. Nor would FFG intend for typical players to purchase as a completionist would, there's no reason or benefit for that intention.