1 hour ago, L5RBr said:

Lets clarify a little this Ujiaki + Crone + FGG "auto-win" combo.

First several things need to happen for this can be even possible:

1 - Lion need the imperial favor

2 - Lion need Ujiaki in a province or in discard and the shugenja

3 - Lion need to save at least 3 fates for conflict phase (1 for Crone and 2 for FGG)

4 - Lion's opponent need to spend all his fate in dynasty phase.

Despite this very uncommon scenario, lets be honest, if you are facing Lion you have all the informations you need in dynasty phase. You know he have the favor and you know ujiaki is coming. Let's consider the fact Ujiaki can bring up to +15M force into the battle, so, like facing Shoju, the best you can do is stay out of his way and save your cards to win the other 3 conflicts, in order to recover the imperial favor. So all these "Crone reduce my action possibilities in half" are pointless.

No the part where your opponent may as well scoop is if you have the Crone the turn after you Ujiaki into a FGG. Having a board advantage, forcing your opponent to spend more in dynasty to try to keep up and bid higher to get cards in hand. IMO you need a decent flop after being hit with Ujiaki->FGG combo, but it is still doable.

It really has little to do with Ujiaki, he just exacerbates it. It could happen after any FGG scenario. Though FGG aside Lion can and do have a board advantage at the cost of a hand advantage. The Crone mitigates that disadvantage, I don't mind the concept but at this point in the game Lion getting its weaknesses shored up before other factions are viable is disheartening.

Looking at any one of these cards in a vacuum, and sure they are all good. But how they interact in clan and in game is where I see the Crone creating a negative play experience. Disagree if you would like.

1 hour ago, L5RBr said:

Lets clarify a little this Ujiaki + Crone + FGG "auto-win" combo.

First several things need to happen for this can be even possible:

1 - Lion need the imperial favor

2 - Lion need Ujiaki in a province or in discard and the shugenja

3 - Lion need to save at least 3 fates for conflict phase (1 for Crone and 2 for FGG)

4 - Lion's opponent need to spend all his fate in dynasty phase.

Despite this very uncommon scenario, lets be honest, if you are facing Lion you have all the informations you need in dynasty phase. You know he have the favor and you know ujiaki is coming. Let's consider the fact Ujiaki can bring up to +15M force into the battle, so, like facing Shoju, the best you can do is stay out of his way and save your cards to win the other 3 conflicts, in order to recover the imperial favor. So all these "Crone reduce my action possibilities in half" are pointless.

Your best chances:

1 - Save 1 fate and use a counter in FGG. If you waste all your fate in dynasty phase in this telegraphed situation you are playing very bad anyway.

2 - If you don't have a counter crone will not affect this at all, the best you could do is use cloud the mind or against the waves in the shugenja, and Crone will not affect this too.

About Lion didn't need a courtier like Crone, I deeply disagree, as I said Lion the main strategy is bid low, and as we don't have many dishonor cards to punish our opponents for bidding high, and Honor Victory is far more difficult to do, almost impossible against Scorpion, Lion usually face opponents with more cards in hand. She is not that amazing, but is a good protection resource principally against decks that can draw a lot with cards like Scorpion (sincerity, stronghold, province), Crane and Phoenix (holdings, sincerity), her main function is to prevent receiving several 0 cost actions in one conflict.

This I think is where your concept of "uncommon" or difficult to pull off combo is a little misguided.

FGG only costs one, and you don't need to play it all at the same time. You technically don't even need Ujikai, only a situation where you are getting great value out of FGG.

For example: FGG after Charging Toturi into a battle where you already have LPB and one other Bushi. This just generated an effective 8+ fate advantage that Lion carries into the next turn and leaves Lion with a clear board advantage. This is something that happens rather frequently, but, other clans are generally able to at least attempt to balance things out because they can move into the next turn with the opportunity to buy a couple guys and hope that the hand advantage they likely have will allow them to play additional conflict cards to keep pace..................this is where Crone comes in to spoil things.

The opponent has to buy some guys to attempt to keep the board state somewhat even. Lion likely adds a guy to the board too, and maintains a dominate board state. The opponent will now look to try stabilize by playing conflict cards from hand as they should have an advantage ...........but, Lion drops Crone and now the hand advantage is neutralized making the conflict phase a straight up contest of on board skills and abilities in play because hand advantage means nothing when each player is now limited in the number of cards they can play, due to the Crone 'tax'.

It doesn't matter if you have 11 cards in hand and I only have 5 as a Lion player. If I am in a dominant board position and we can only afford to play one card a piece, hand advantage is neutralized.

Ujiaki just exacerbates the situation because he gets you a board state that is even more bonkers than what Lion can currently get with just core cards, but, make no mistake, Crone is a problem card.

5 minutes ago, Tomello said:

No the part where your opponent may as well scoop is if you have the Crone the turn after you Ujiaki into a FGG. Having a board advantage, forcing your opponent to spend more in dynasty to try to keep up and bid higher to get cards in hand. IMO you need a decent flop after being hit with Ujiaki->FGG combo, but it is still doable.

It really has little to do with Ujiaki, he just exacerbates it. It could happen after any FGG scenario. Though FGG aside Lion can and do have a board advantage at the cost of a hand advantage. The Crone mitigates that disadvantage, I don't mind the concept but at this point in the game Lion getting its weaknesses shored up before other factions are viable is disheartening.

Looking at any one of these cards in a vacuum, and sure they are all good. But how they interact in clan and in game is where I see the Crone creating a negative play experience. Disagree if you would like.

I agree with you, this situation really is a npe. to be honest even without Crone, Ujiaki + FGG is npe, she just makes the snowball effect worst.

I'm testing the magistrates and feel they are a npe too, specially against attacks on the stronghold, were you can win the game denying your opponents skills and the other player many times can do nothing about it, there's no strategy about it, you can have fate and cards and still be totally impotent.

17 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

This I think is where your concept of "uncommon" or difficult to pull off combo is a little misguided.

FGG only costs one, and you don't need to play it all at lythe same time. You technically don't even need Ujikai, only a situation where you are getting great value out of FGG.

For example: FGG after Charging Toturi into a battle where you already have LPB and one other Bushi. This just generated an effective 8+ fate advantage that Lion carries into the next turn and leaves Lion with a clear board advantage. This is something that happens rather frequently, but, other clans are generally able to at least attempt to balance things out because they can move into the next turn with the opportunity to buy a couple guys and hope that the hand advantage they likely have will allow them to play additional conflict cards to keep pace..................this is where Crone comes in to spoil things.

The opponent has to buy some guys to attempt to keep the board state somewhat even. Lion likely adds a guy to the board too, and maintains a dominate board state. The opponent will now look to try stabilize by playing conflict cards from hand as they should have an advantage ...........but, Lion drops Crone and now the hand advantage is neutralized making the conflict phase a straight up contest of on board skills and abilities in play because hand advantage means nothing when each player is now limited in the number of cards they can play, due to the Crone 'tax'.

It doesn't matter if you have 11 cards in hand and I only have 5 as a Lion player. If I am in a dominant board position and we can only afford to play one card a piece, hand advantage is neutralized.

Ujiaki just exacerbates the situation because he gets you a board state that is even more bonkers than what Lion can currently get with just core cards, but, make no mistake, Crone is a problem card.

Few points on that.

1. Crone works in one conflict only not whole conflict phase as you propose so you can use your 10 events in the other 3 conflicts freely.

2. Crone works on events only so roughly half to one third of your deck, so hypothetical scorpion with 10 cards in hand can still play around 5 of them with no reprecussions.

3. Crone doesn't straight up stop anything. You nearly always get pass fate from Lion so you should be in fate advantage. Thus if you really need some event to go off you will get it off.

4. Some of the most impactful Lion cards are events such as Charge and Way of Lion. By playing Crone they deny themselves the opportunity to play them thus making them much more predictable. Having her in hand also means that they have one less ofvthese explosive cards.

But hey we will wait and see.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

1. Crone works in one conflict only not whole conflict phase as you propose so you can use your 10 events in the other 3 conflicts freely.

I never implied otherwise...........however, since Crone comes from the conflict hand, the Lion player gets to wait until they see what their opponent does and play the Crone into the conflict that will hurt the most. The most likely outcome is that the Lion forces a conflict where the opponent has to commit a large number of their characters to the fight, wins with Crone, because that's the only fight that really matters that turn, and those extra cards rot in the opponent's hand.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

2. Crone works on events only so roughly half to one third of your deck, so hypothetical scorpion with 10 cards in hand can still play around 5 of them with no reprecussions.

Again, I never implied otherwise..............but to expand on your example of a Scorpion hand that is 5 events, and I have to assume that the other 5 cards are 4 items and 1 character? Considering that events generally have the biggest impact on a conflict, and in the scenario Lion would have a distinct board advantage, items and conflict characters aren't going to close that large of a gap in skill. But let's say that it does and you manage to win that conflict from Lion...........using up your 6 of your cards, 5 of whicht are generally not intended for single conflict use, to do so, when it might have only taken you 2 events to get the same result. That's still a loss in the long run because now you end up forfeiting your hand advantage which was the only thing that was offsetting the board advantage of the Lion. So what's your other option? Just concede the attack and hope to get two provinces from Lion? Maybe, but, when you're looking at potentially getting double ringed by Toturi and hit with a LPB even when at home, you're probably not going to be able to mount much of an offense.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

3. Crone doesn't straight up stop anything. You nearly always get pass fate from Lion so you should be in fate advantage. Thus if you really need some event to go off you will get it off.

Possibly, but, again you have to consider this a point in the game, which will come for Lion, where they are playing from ahead based on a dominant board state they established from the prior turn. The Lion doesn't have to play anything from their dynasty phase and could undercut your on fate. Also, as Crone is a conflict card, you don't know your are going to need that extra fate until she hits the table. So you build to a point where you think Lion is going to try to squeeze one more character out there and instead they pass, denying you that fate. You think "I'm ok, I still have that 1 fate to play with" Then Crone hits...........oh well there goes any 1 fate events you could have played and now your 0 fate events are limited to one. That's a huge difference. Having your options cut that drastically is a big deal. Especially as I pointed out in responding to your other question as you are now forced to consider using items as one shot effects and that decreases their value significantly while also screwing with any long game hopes you might have had.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

4. Some of the most impactful Lion cards are events such as Charge and Way of Lion. By playing Crone they deny themselves the opportunity to play them thus making them much more predictable. Having her in hand also means that they have one less ofvthese explosive cards.

Again, not something I was arguing and the example that is being presented is based on when it's correct to play Crone. Charge would have already been played and WotL is likely unnecessary as you should be miles ahead of your opponent on the board. Even if you are not, 1 fate to play a charge if Lion had to would be fine as it likely is enough to undo the lost skill from the single event that the opponent played........because both players are now limited to playing fewer events. Additionally, your logic is slightly flawed here. Crone doesn't reduce your changes of being able to draw Charge or WotL or any other important card........because Crone does not replace those cards when it comes to designing a deck. Crone takes up that spot you might have been still running something that was filler from the core set. Charge and WotL don't compete for space with Crone. Crone's only downside might be that she could be classified as a "win more" card as she is great when you are ahead and only average when you are behind. Because Lion has so much control over when Crone hits the table, she is more likely to hit the table when they are ahead. And given that this game is first and foremost a game of choice and interaction, any card that limits those two things is strong. I simply can't tag her as "win more" because generally it's better to put the nail in the coffin then write your opponent off...................for example the WC Lion player extending his hand multiple times when he thought he'd won a game (because of the superior board state of Lion) but his opponents found some ways to drag it out as they had options. Had Crone been on the table in those situations, then may of those games would have indeed just been over.

Oops

7 hours ago, BordOne said:

Stuff about Kachiko and Toturi.

See if I'm playing a character like Kachiko, I'm not playing her as a 5 cost character. I'll invest more, maybe one or two. The problem with your evaluation of her is you keep wanting to pay 5 for her or cheat her in. Scorpion doesn't have ways to keep people in after putting them in play, unlike Lion. Just no. We don't cheat people in or not invest additional fate and expect to keep people like you do. Hence, she's much more expensive than you think. If I wanted to break a province, I can do that with my Adept+0 cost attachment. If I wanted to send people home, I can Outwit for 1. All of those cards are still cheaper than a one turn Kachiko.

Toturi will not work as a Conflict character because of how Lion plays or how you play? You can perfectly play 1 personality and pass afterwards. That's not a play specifically designed for scorpion. Anybody can do that. Scorpion doesn't have any inherent advantages they get from playing like that anymore than Lion does. So playing Toturi from the hand works as well as Kachiko does. The mere existence of the dropbears scorpion deck doesn't define the playstyle all scorpion decks take. There's a version of the dropbears deck from Crane, and they do take the same approach: play 1 character and pass. That is not a Scorpion play, its a legitimate playstyle you can tailor your deck into, no matter the clan.

Lastly, if you're advocating to free up 2-3 spaces in the conflict deck to use Kachiko, then you already conceded your point. You don't allot 2 slots for a strong character. Do you use 2 LPBs in your deck? I don't think so.

I'll give you the same statement you keep saying to people who has a different opinion than you: How bout you play Scorpion and play Kachiko yourself?

I mean, the difference between playing 3 LPB and 3 Kachiko is the fate cost. It's reasonable to include fewer 5-cost characters, to avoid getting a hand/row of cards that are too expensive to play out. I wouldn't want to drop Bayushi Shoju in most cases, so if I were uncomfortable running two full sets of 5-cost characters, it'd be reasonable to consider less than a full set of the second one.

On the other hand, i don't think it's a good comparison. Kachiko won't fill up your province slots, so even if Shoju shows up, she can't clog up your other options, giving you the same choice of characters/options. You still don't want to play too many expensive cards, but being a conflict character definitely helps the issue.

7 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

I mean, the difference between playing 3 LPB and 3 Kachiko is the fate cost.

Why? All 5 costers are unique but if a card is strong for it's cost, I'll play more copies just to reliably see it. And if Kachiko was in the dynasty deck, I'd play 3 of her. I think she has solid stats for her cost. Sadly that's not the case, hence I can't gauge her like I gauge a dynasty character. She needs to up her game to compete for space in scorpion's conflict deck, which most people would agree is a tightly packed one.

1 minute ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Why? All 5 costers are unique but if a card is strong for it's cost, I'll play more copies just to reliably see it. And if Kachiko was in the dynasty deck, I'd play 3 of her. I think she has solid stats for her cost. Sadly that's not the case, hence I can't gauge her like I gauge a dynasty character. She needs to up her game to compete for space in scorpion's conflict deck, which most people would agree is a tightly packed one.

It is a perhaps sad fact of the game that I find myself making agonizing decisions over my Conflict deck and my Dynasty deck is more like "Eh, it is mostly trash, so it doesn't matter who goes in."

4 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

I mean, the difference between playing 3 LPB and 3 Kachiko is the fate cost. It's reasonable to include fewer 5-cost characters, to avoid getting a hand/row of cards that are too expensive to play out. I wouldn't want to drop Bayushi Shoju in most cases, so if I were uncomfortable running two full sets of 5-cost characters, it'd be reasonable to consider less than a full set of the second one.

On the other hand, i don't think it's a good comparison. Kachiko won't fill up your province slots, so even if Shoju shows up, she can't clog up your other options, giving you the same choice of characters/options. You still don't want to play too many expensive cards, but being a conflict character definitely helps the issue.

It wont really matter if it fills up a province slot, if you are not going to buy all your characters. You have to build decks with Kachiko as your 5 coster and work from there. She is competing with a card like A Fate Worse than Death, she doesn't even compare. It is not really a surprise if I have to pay maybe 1 for a character and then pass.

In reality if you are buying her at cost you are doing it wrong. 5 fate to win one conflict....is not really a good investment, when you could have done it for considerably less. Even if I have Back Alley, I still need to spend 5 again the next turn so there is no fate advantage.

I understand from a Lion perspective that they don't really care about cost because of Charge and Spiritcaller. Being in the discard pile is often just as effective as being in a province. Aside from Ambush which will likely only bring 1 card into play if it is a 5 coster is just Charge you are paying more for to use in political.

1 minute ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Why? All 5 costers are unique but if a card is strong for it's cost, I'll play more copies just to reliably see it. And if Kachiko was in the dynasty deck, I'd play 3 of her. I think she has solid stats for her cost. Sadly that's not the case, hence I can't gauge her like I gauge a dynasty character. She needs to up her game to compete for space in scorpion's conflict deck, which most people would agree is a tightly packed one.

Because you just can't play that many 5-cost characters in the dynasty deck without causing significant problems. Let's say a clan had eight great 5-cost characters, all of whom were worth their fate cost. They're all stronger than the rest of your dynasty characters that have lower cost. You wouldn't run every one of them, because your province rows would be full of 5-cost characters. It gives you access to fewer characters each turn, limiting the number of conflicts you can participate in. Now in a less extreme example, Kachiko could be worth her fate-cost and still not be a 3-of in a deck if someone believes:

a) They'd rather play Bayushi Shoju than Kachiko.

b) 6 is too many 5-cost characters.

Just because a character isn't a 3-of in the deck doesn't mean she's not worth her spot. It's not logically inconsistent, it's just acknowledging another restraint on the deckbuilding process.

4 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Because you just can't play that many 5-cost characters in the dynasty deck without causing significant problems. Let's say a clan had eight great 5-cost characters, all of whom were worth their fate cost. They're all stronger than the rest of your dynasty characters that have lower cost. You wouldn't run every one of them, because your province rows would be full of 5-cost characters. It gives you access to fewer characters each turn, limiting the number of conflicts you can participate in.

Of course you wouldn't run all of them. They all might not fit into the deck (i.e. their abilities might be antithetical to what you are trying to do). In terms of current game the two 5 cost Scorpion characters are similar stat -wise and have similar constraints (abilities only work in political). They are in direct competition for the slot because they are so similar in form and function. The issue is that Shoju only competes with Dynasty characters, Kachiko competes with Dynasty characters, Conflict characters, attachments, and events. As it stands right now our conflict cards are far more versatile and cheaper, to the point where she is almost never wise to buy.

@Ishi Tonu I like your arguments and I concede the points, I don't want to spend so much time on the thread anymore. I can see Crone being strong, I am still sceptical of her being really problematic but I think we will need to play her first to know that. My gut feeling is that she is not impactful enough in the situations outside of Lion being ahead on the board I can see your reasons for thinking otherwise.

4 hours ago, Shosuro Teri said:

See if I'm playing a character like Kachiko, I'm not playing her as a 5 cost character. I'll invest more, maybe one or two. The problem with your evaluation of her is you keep wanting to pay 5 for her or cheat her in. Scorpion doesn't have ways to keep people in after putting them in play, unlike Lion. Just no. We don't cheat people in or not invest additional fate and expect to keep people like you do. Hence, she's much more expensive than you think. If I wanted to break a province, I can do that with my Adept+0 cost attachment. If I wanted to send people home, I can Outwit for 1. All of those cards are still cheaper than a one turn Kachiko.

Well maybe that's your problem. And maybe you should consider playing her as 5 cost. I never said you shouldn't add fate to her though, the only reason I didn't mention it clearly is because I was comparing her to the event that is one time effect only. Just in the comparison with the event she provides additional 6 political power for 1 fate more. And I understand you would want to keep that ability around because it is strong. And then she is more expensive yeah.

She is not more expensive than any other 5 cost character in the game though. All clan champions cost 5 and you typically want add fate to them. Lion is somewhat unique in that regard but if every other clan manages to play their 5 drops why would scorpion not be able to do that?

You can break a province using the Shadow Adept with an attachment(requiring 2 cards), you could use outwit to send character home(requiring one card) or you could do both of those at once being more efficient in each aspect using just one card - Kachiko.

And that "not cheating characters into play" bit is ******* rich coming from the clan with best cheat in event in the game.

And dude calm down with Lion hate. You want to hate on me hate on Unicorn because this is the clan that I have most games as. And also don't assume what people do and don't do because you look effing stupid.

4 hours ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Toturi will not work as a Conflict character because of how Lion plays or how you play? You can perfectly play 1 personality and pass afterwards. That's not a play specifically designed for scorpion. Anybody can do that. Scorpion doesn't have any inherent advantages they get from playing like that anymore than Lion does. So playing Toturi from the hand works as well as Kachiko does. The mere existence of the dropbears scorpion deck doesn't define the playstyle all scorpion decks take. There's a version of the dropbears deck from Crane, and they do take the same approach: play 1 character and pass. That is not a Scorpion play, its a legitimate playstyle you can tailor your deck into, no matter the clan.

Because of how Lion plays and if you doubt that than you don't know how to play Lion. Your points are stupid and I will explain why one by one.

1. You cannot play 1 personality and pass in Lion. The reason you can do that in Scorpion is that you are drawing 5 cards during your first turn and probably 5 next turn. This gives you a very high chance to get Adept of Shadows that can win multiple conflicts by herself. Lion needs to bid much more conservatively in order to keep all of the personalities working. They also have no conflict character on par with Adept of Shadow(actually they have no really good conflict characters). Even Toturi if he was a conflict char would be weaker play than her because he can participate in one conflict only. Not to mention a lot of cards in Lion work stronger when you have numbers advantage(there are also dozens of strong cards that work against that type of playstyle for example Staging Grounds and infamous Spirit Caller, the cards that need you to go through your dynasty fast in order to make them effective and cards that are must have for Lion).

2. Scorpion gets inherent advantages from playing like that. It is a seeker clan. This means that during first two turns Scorpion will have inherent fate advantage, which it gains during conflicts, over any keeper clan.

3. Playing Toturi from hand doesn't work as well as playing Kachiko from hand due to how little surprise factor his reaction has compared to her action. Toturis reaction is a win more if you will, Kachiko on the other hand helps you win and win bigly. Moreover the sheer strength boost is incomparably in favor for kachiko(Toturi in a conflict deck is also weaker because you can't discard him like you would from your dynasty to cheat him into play, while you can still use your Ambush perfectly well on Kachiko).

4. I don't care for Drop bears, however playing two 1 drops or 2 drop and 1 drop into adept of shadows is a standard play from scorpion. This type of playstyle optimizes the advantages given by seeker role.

4 hours ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Lastly, if you're advocating to free up 2-3 spaces in the conflict deck to use Kachiko, then you already conceded your point. You don't allot 2 slots for a strong character. Do you use 2 LPBs in your deck? I don't think so.

I'll give you the same statement you keep saying to people who has a different opinion than you: How bout you play Scorpion and play Kachiko yourself?

I advocated to "free up" some spaces for Kachiko because I am a human being I have empathy and I know that you may look at the things from different point of view so I used the language that would be more acceptable for you.

In the earlier days I used 2 Toturies while I still tought he is perfectly viable character. Remember I was arguing against people saying Kachiko is poor and weak, not people saying she is strong but wonky.

I know you tought this will be your gotcha moment but that is exactly what I am going to do. And it is not like I am inexperienced with Scorpion either.

11 hours ago, BordOne said:

I know Kachiko is a conflict character and I can see her being hard to fit into the deck. I am not as pessimistic as you though. This card dosn't have a weakness in her design other than that. While she might be competing with the rest of the conflict deck I am pretty sure you can find 3 or 2 spaces to try her out.

You didn't mention inherent advantages that comes with being a conflict character - mainly information advantage and opportunity advantage - if she is strong in the situation you can play her if not you leave her in hand - you have 9 other cards, you are Scorpion goddamit.

Toturi wouldn't work in the conflict deck due to how Lion plays - spending all fate in dynasty and then trying to cheat him in with charge. One dead card in Lions hand is also much heavier than one dead card in Scorpions. Tell me: do you think Shoju wouldn't work as conflict character? Scorpion always played into conflicts with huge pool of unspent fate, Kachiko synergizes with that playstyle perfectly. I understand the hesitation, she is first 5 cost conflict character, we don't know how to work our mind around that yet but I am optimistic. And as you said if she were dynasty she would be great so I don't see her as weak or poor as she was called by others with no testing at least for now.

Kachiko does the same thing as A fate worse than death(Which is one of the great cards I see no one talking about, while focusing on the crone instead), albeit only in political. She does however provide you with 6 more political power for a 1 cost increase in fate. And she can do it for 1 fate cheaper if you cheat her in with an Ambush. She also has an added flexibility of being a character(you can initiate conflicts with her, can spend fate on her) and she can use the skill on her own personalities. So I view cards as similar. I will agree though that A Fate Worse Than Death is probably better due to how busted it is. I am still not sure though because Kachiko and 1 drop from Ambush seems like the most broken thing ever(/obvious exaggeration). She's also good with Back alley hideway.

tl:dr whole reason I am in this thread: Crone looks ok/ not optimal in Lion while I am reading she is op and broken. People saying Kachiko is "weak and poor" with no testing and without arguing it very well(only coherent arguments coming from Shosuro Teri and shosuko at this point), people saying Ujiaki is broken(which he probably is)due to one in twenty games scenario while ignoring the true problem with him - which is Spirit Caller working around his ability condition.

Kachiko has 2 problems. 1 is being a Conflict Character, the other is having 3 Glory. Scorpion don't have any honor tech, and DO have self-dishonoring costs to pay... 3 Glory is a vulnerability in Scorpion. Being a conflict character is a problem though, and it outweighs the opportunities right now.

She does not do the same thing as A Fate Worse than Death. AFWtD bows them, sends them home, dishonors them, removes a fate from them, AND blanks their text box. But lets talk about AFWtD - its too expensive and will likely not see play. Even with all it does a 4 cost conflict card is too expensive! Already people don't run I can Swim and it just costs 2...

While Scorpion are designed to have a lot of expensive conflict characters I rarely go into a conflict with more fate than my opponent - its not like we have a cheap dynasty, or a more effective dynasty than anyone else, or a way to gain extra fate than other players can't. Its kinda funny because what we DO have are ways to draw cards and cheat the honor cost of drawing more - drawing more means you actually want a cheaper conflict deck. Drawing a card you can't afford is a waste.

3 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

It is a perhaps sad fact of the game that I find myself making agonizing decisions over my Conflict deck and my Dynasty deck is more like "Eh, it is mostly trash, so it doesn't matter who goes in."

This highlights the biggest layer of skepticism for Kachiko. Currently building the dynasty deck is easy. Even after the 6 in 6 weeks there aren't many decision points, and generally you're going to use almost every card you have. There will be cards you won't mind taking out to make room if you want to play more expensive characters. Meanwhile even out of just 3 core the conflict deck is a hotly contested space and Kachiko has a lot to go up against! Its not good enough to be on par, or even better than other characters that are 5 cost - she has to be better than other conflict options.

18 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Kachiko has 2 problems. 1 is being a Conflict Character, the other is having 3 Glory. Scorpion don't have any honor tech, and DO have self-dishonoring costs to pay... 3 Glory is a vulnerability in Scorpion. Being a conflict character is a problem though, and it outweighs the opportunities right now.

She does not do the same thing as A Fate Worse than Death. AFWtD bows them, sends them home, dishonors them, removes a fate from them, AND blanks their text box. But lets talk about AFWtD - its too expensive and will likely not see play. Even with all it does a 4 cost conflict card is too expensive! Already people don't run I can Swim and it just costs 2...

While Scorpion are designed to have a lot of expensive conflict characters I rarely go into a conflict with more fate than my opponent - its not like we have a cheap dynasty, or a more effective dynasty than anyone else, or a way to gain extra fate than other players can't. Its kinda funny because what we DO have are ways to draw cards and cheat the honor cost of drawing more - drawing more means you actually want a cheaper conflict deck. Drawing a card you can't afford is a waste.

I agree completly on the glory part and as I said that is one of the reasons she might be weaker than Shoju.

I wasn't precise, what I meant is that it does the same thing for the resolution of the conflict.

I think you are wrong about A Fate Worse than Death. I don't know if it will see play in 3 copies(but it might as well if 5 costers become prevalent). The reason I Can Swim is not played is not the cost - it's that it is too condtional with both conditions being quite harsh(higher bid might be hard with opponent knowing they are playing against scorpion, dishonoring character often costs valuable events that can be used better elswhere). A Fate Worse than Death can target anything anywhere anytime as long as it is participating in the conflict. The additional value from automatically dishonoring them is welcome as well.

Unconditional cards with strong effects are the ones that tend to see the play the most.

The strongest results I have with scorpion is when I tend to play cheap turn one mulliganing for adept of shadows and dynasty 1 and 2 drops. Playing two 1 drops or 1 drop and 2 drop and going into conflict phase with 4 or 5 leftover fate(counting in pass), then bidding 5 and letting my tricks do the work while seeker role keeps me in fate advantage. I was under the impression this is how Scorp plays most of the time. At least for me this is the most successful way.

28 minutes ago, BordOne said:

You can break a province using the Shadow Adept with an attachment(requiring 2 cards), you could use outwit to send character home(requiring one card) or you could do both of those at once being more efficient in each aspect using just one card - Kachiko.

And that "not cheating characters into play" bit is ******* rich coming from the clan with best cheat in event in the game.

This is getting ridiculous. You claim every criticism is just stupid or people are inexperienced or it is hate....Get over yourself already, you are acting like a petulant child. There are valid criticisms and your responses to them have been terrible. If you want to be that way go play Magic. I know you got a new toy and you love your new toy. Cool. The grown ups think it might have issues when it interacts with the rest of the game. You can disagree but when you bloviate about anyone who doesn't like your new toy is just hating or stupid....it says more about you than it does about anyone else.

More efficient? There is more than one resource in the game. It might be card efficient, but like you said Scorpion can bid 5 cards during the first turn (but Lion drawing 4 is untenable and the weakest in game). Fate is the question, we already have expensive conflict cards and averagely costed dynasty characters. I know you think that 1 fate from seeker in a turn is enough to justify a 5 cost character...it isn't. The competition in the conflict deck is TOO steep, she is not better than the other options.

As for the comment you quoted....yeah read the sentence again. It was cheat into play AND keep them there. Though I guess it is easy to have a counter-argument with what you want people to say rather than what they actually say.

4 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

Let's say a clan had eight great 5-cost characters...

Now in a less extreme example..

Wow. Uhm, no. That's not an extreme example, that's a stupid example. Plus it flies in the face of what I said in my very first contribution here. I'd reiterate for your sake: Kachiko is good. Has solid stats for her cost and ability. Her problem is her opportunity cost. In you're example you're accumulating way too much opportunity cost when using too many 5 costers.

Seriously 8? I was under the impression that we're making rational arguments here. 2 is a reality now. 3 might come in the next deluxe box. 8? What are you smoking again?

Wow.

No reason to get heated @Tomello Its a forum and we all can speak our peace here. We don't have to end discussion because a few people believe something. If you don't want to continue the discussion then just step out.

Whether any person is a grown up, or a child doesn't matter - as time progresses and as people play we'll see what works and what doesn't. Until then no one knows anything. Even people who play with cards before they are released don't really know because they don't have all of the cards - and even when we do have all of the cards, new cards can change the value of existing cards, so the conversation will likely never end.

Don't be so harsh. I'm enjoying the conversation and all points of view as it is.

24 minutes ago, Tomello said:

This is getting ridiculous. You claim every criticism is just stupid or people are inexperienced or it is hate....Get over yourself already, you are acting like a petulant child. There are valid criticisms and your responses to them have been terrible. If you want to be that way go play Magic. I know you got a new toy and you love your new toy. Cool. The grown ups think it might have issues when it interacts with the rest of the game. You can disagree but when you bloviate about anyone who doesn't like your new toy is just hating or stupid....it says more about you than it does about anyone else.

Tomello easy, calling people stupid on the internet is the part of etiquiette. Completly seriously tho I tend to stay civil if the persons post has a chill vibe. If they throw personal insults like you did multiple times I tend to bite back a bit. I was actually talking to you normally until you started saying things like

" I would ask you to stop feigning ignorance...but at this point I don't think you are feigning anything. " and being all passive aggresive n'sheit.

I claim Lion hate when I see it xD I do that when I am arguing something and person responds with "Lion clan this, Lion clan that" that is completly unconnected to the topic(like talking about Kachiko and people raging about Spirit Callers and such). I don't know is it just a way to rage against my mon? If I changed to Unicorn would this change too?

I don't care for Crone and I probably won't play her unless she becomes as broken as this forum seems to belive she is.

And dude completly seriously I hope you are not as angry as the tone of the post seems to suggest. I wish you all the best lol. You call me stupid I call your argument stupid this is just usual forum stuff no need to shorten your life expectancy over that.

24 minutes ago, Tomello said:

More efficient? There is more than one resource in the game. It might be card efficient, but like you said Scorpion can bid 5 cards during the first turn (but Lion drawing 4 is untenable and the weakest in game). Fate is the question, we already have expensive conflict cards and averagely costed dynasty characters. I know you think that 1 fate from seeker in a turn is enough to justify a 5 cost character...it isn't. The competition in the conflict deck is TOO steep, she is not better than the other options.

As for the comment you quoted....yeah read the sentence again. It was cheat into play AND keep them there. Though I guess it is easy to have a counter-argument with what you want people to say rather than what they actually say.

She is more efficient at what she does than both of the options quoted, she provides more strength than adept plus attachment and she not only sends home like outwit but also bows. And also as you mentioned she is card efficient.

Seeker can net you up to 2 fate first turn. There are always things to cut. You can't say she is not better than other options since we didn't have opportunity to play her yet.

Anyway good luck and don't get so worked up dude

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

Well maybe that's your problem. And maybe you should consider playing her as 5 cost.

Why? To break a province and potentially send home a guy? No, thank you. If I need either one, I have better and cheaper options.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

And that "not cheating characters into play" bit is ******* rich coming from the clan with best cheat in event in the game.

And dude calm down with Lion hate. You want to hate on me hate on Unicorn because this is the clan that I have most games as. And also don't assume what people do and don't do because you look effing stupid.

Best cheat in event? Hah! Apparently you're playing Unicorn and missed the actual Best cheat in event. Now that's rich.

I don't hate Lion, nor you. Make a case a defend it properly. Don't make this personal.

52 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I was under the impression this is how Scorp plays most of the time. At least for me this is the most successful way.

Yep. Assuming stuff makes you look stupid alright.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

Because of how Lion plays and if you doubt that than you don't know how to play Lion. Your points are stupid and I will explain why one by one.

No. Playing one character and passing is a legitimate playstyle. Question is if you can tailor your deck to do so. Just like tailoring your deck not to run all the honor reliant characters and events. Other players did this, you're not the only Lion player and playing a certain way with lion and having some success with it doesn't make your playstyle the playstyle for Lion. Bidding is a fluid thing. All you have to do with lion is build up an honor advantage and then adjust your bids accordingly. You can also drag your opponents down by superior board advantage and winning unopposed. You keep locking your decisions in game like you're following a recipe. You don't. Much like a scorpion might bid high once, but then when he sees what your doing will adjust accordingly. Scorpion won't bid 5 twice against a one and have a walk in the park after. I know I don't but I'm not claiming bidding 3-4 is the correct play for scorpion regardless if I have had some success with it.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

Remember I was arguing against people saying Kachiko is poor and weak, not people saying she is strong but wonky.

I know you tought this will be your gotcha moment but that is exactly what I am going to do. And it is not like I am inexperienced with Scorpion either.

You were arguing against people who said Kachiko is in the wrong deck, all the while claiming that you're just comparing cards in a vacuum. For one, comparing cards by themselves is stupid in a card game. And you weren't even doing it correctly. That's why I highlighted her opportunity cost and why shes problematic. Lastly, you don't compared conflict cards and dynasty cards in a vacuum. Just no.

55 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I think you are wrong about A Fate Worse than Death. I don't know if it will see play in 3 copies(but it might as well if 5 costers become prevalent). The reason I Can Swim is not played is not the cost - it's that it is too condtional with both conditions being quite harsh(higher bid might be hard with opponent knowing they are playing against scorpion, dishonoring character often costs valuable events that can be used better elswhere). A Fate Worse than Death can target anything anywhere anytime as long as it is participating in the conflict. The additional value from automatically dishonoring them is welcome as well.

Unconditional cards with strong effects are the ones that tend to see the play the most.

The strongest results I have with scorpion is when I tend to play cheap turn one mulliganing for adept of shadows and dynasty 1 and 2 drops. Playing two 1 drops or 1 drop and 2 drop and going into conflict phase with 4 or 5 leftover fate(counting in pass), then bidding 5 and letting my tricks do the work while seeker role keeps me in fate advantage. I was under the impression this is how Scorp plays most of the time. At least for me this is the most successful way.

Sadly - not all of the cards are out yet, and I'm only playing with them as they are released. I speculate that AFWTD will be too expensive and situational. There aren't any barriers to play it like I Can Swim, but it is expensive and spending 4 fate to do all of those things sounds good... but how many of them matter? If the character is 0 glory, and had no fate on them, then its 3 more than you would have spent on an Outwit or Rout to do the same thing. I'm trying to reserve judgement on that card until I get to play with it but I think it will be too situational to be generally great.

Scorpion have no lack of political power and some people already favor Hiroue over Shoju because it doesn't matter how much POL you have when you break a province, the province is broken the same. When you consider the abilities of Shoju vs Hiroue - even though Shoju's ability could be considered "stronger" in that it can potentially kill 1-2 characters and brings his POL value up to a net of 9, all you get for him is the province he attacked. Hiroue can help you get that province, and disrupt your opponent's board state which could bring more than 1 province win through the turn...

Similarly Kachiko creates a MASSIVE POL swing. She drops 6 new POL to the conflict AND sends an opposing character home bowed. There is no denying how massive this is, but is it more POL overkill for a clan that already has plenty of POL options? The best case scenario I see for Kachiko currently is if you can move her home from the conflict letting her pull double duty. Send home an attacker bowed, and then come back with an attack. The other situation that would need to happen for her to be great is if Scorpion got a much more MIL focused dynasty - in which case she can be the surprise POL clean up crew.

I've focused on Conflict characters a lot in my play and love splashing Ishiken Initiate for the surprise province steal - when you're player 2, and there have been 3 conflicts, and every character is bowed... the opponent might easily think that the turn is done and they've accomplished their goals. Then I spend that 2 fate to drop in Ishiken Initiate to march into their province at 4/4 strength for the surprise steal... Its highly efficient stats being just 2 cost for 4/4 and very versatile so I can swing with either type. Its also an Option Select because that 2 fate could be Ishiken Initiate or it could have been Outwit, or Calling in Favors if I needed. I'm not locked into buying Ishiken Initiate just because I reserved 2 fate.

Kachiko does not have that Option Select yet...

28 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Why? To break a province and potentially send home a guy? No, thank you. If I need either one, I have better and cheaper options.

All of them are less card efficient though.

28 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Best cheat in event? Hah! Apparently you're playing Unicorn and missed the actual Best cheat in event. Now that's rich.

I don't hate Lion, nor you. Make a case a defend it properly. Don't make this personal.

I knew what I said. Cavalry Reserves have long *** wind up time before you can use it for anything, usually one or two turns till anything of value gets into your graveyard. The main reason Ambush is stronger though is the fact that it has in faction cancel to protect itself.

Didn't say you hate me it is you making it weirdly personal xd

28 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Yep. Assuming stuff makes you look stupid alright.

Ahh the snark, love it. Me saying "I assume" was just a figure of speech. This is one of, if not the most efficient way to play Scorpion period.

28 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

No. Playing one character and passing is a legitimate playstyle. Question is if you can tailor your deck to do so. Just like tailoring your deck not to run all the honor reliant characters and events. Other players did this, you're not the only Lion player and playing a certain way with lion and having some success with it doesn't make your playstyle the playstyle for Lion. Bidding is a fluid thing. All you have to do with lion is build up an honor advantage and then adjust your bids accordingly. You can also drag your opponents down by superior board advantage and winning unopposed. You keep locking your decisions in game like you're following a recipe. You don't. Much like a scorpion might bid high once, but then when he sees what your doing will adjust accordingly. Scorpion won't bid 5 twice against a one and have a walk in the park after. I know I don't but I'm not claiming bidding 3-4 is the correct play for scorpion regardless if I have had some success with it.

You could throw out honor reliant characters and events, the problem is there is not much of notice that could replace them, since they are allowed to be very powerful in exchange for their drawbacks. Not to mention that this type of playstyle has anti synergy with strongest cards Lion can field currently(hint: Lion is nothing without Spirit Callers and Staging Ground). The Keeper role doesn't help either. So yes you could make a conflict Lion deck but it would probably be the worst deck in the game.

On the other hand you can make this type of deck in Scorpion and since most of the strong Scorpion cards work well with this playstyle, it will be one of the most powerful decks in the game.

Bidding is bidding.

49 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Sadly - not all of the cards are out yet, and I'm only playing with them as they are released. I speculate that AFWTD will be too expensive and situational. There aren't any barriers to play it like I Can Swim, but it is expensive and spending 4 fate to do all of those things sounds good... but how many of them matter? If the character is 0 glory, and had no fate on them, then its 3 more than you would have spent on an Outwit or Rout to do the same thing. I'm trying to reserve judgement on that card until I get to play with it but I think it will be too situational to be generally great.

There are few advantages it has over outwit/rout. The first obvious one is that it bows so you can use it on defence and then counterattack. The second one is that it doesn't check if your skill is higher, you don't even have to have a character in the conflict, which is great to get rid of dragon voltron/ crane. It also synergizes with dishonor theme and together with void ring it gets rid of 2 fate off of character which is what most of 5 / 4 drops sit on. It is expensive so I don't know if you would play 3 of it(in five drop meta it would be probable though). On the other hand each time you use it you deny opponent the character that is worth similar/ even more fate, while it is very unconditional. We need to wait and see.

49 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Scorpion have no lack of political power and some people already favor Hiroue over Shoju because it doesn't matter how much POL you have when you break a province, the province is broken the same. When you consider the abilities of Shoju vs Hiroue - even though Shoju's ability could be considered "stronger" in that it can potentially kill 1-2 characters and brings his POL value up to a net of 9, all you get for him is the province he attacked. Hiroue can help you get that province, and disrupt your opponent's board state which could bring more than 1 province win through the turn...

Similarly Kachiko creates a MASSIVE POL swing. She drops 6 new POL to the conflict AND sends an opposing character home bowed. There is no denying how massive this is, but is it more POL overkill for a clan that already has plenty of POL options? The best case scenario I see for Kachiko currently is if you can move her home from the conflict letting her pull double duty. Send home an attacker bowed, and then come back with an attack. The other situation that would need to happen for her to be great is if Scorpion got a much more MIL focused dynasty - in which case she can be the surprise POL clean up crew.

To be honest I consider Hiroues ability to be stronger. The main reason for Shoju over Hiroue is stat efficiency, especially when dishonored, in which case Shoju is still breaking provinces without a sweat and Hiroue not really.

About Kachiko remember you can play her before the conflict and initiate with her. So the opponent either gives up the province or defends with two and gets one of characters bowed and possibly still loses the conflict. On the other hand if you feel she brings in too much you can drop her into conflict where opponent defended with some small character, send your other character home and still win conflict.

And obviously she is a killer when attacking the stronghold which might be enough of the reason to run at least 1 of her. I'm optimistic.

49 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I've focused on Conflict characters a lot in my play and love splashing Ishiken Initiate for the surprise province steal - when you're player 2, and there have been 3 conflicts, and every character is bowed... the opponent might easily think that the turn is done and they've accomplished their goals. Then I spend that 2 fate to drop in Ishiken Initiate to march into their province at 4/4 strength for the surprise steal... Its highly efficient stats being just 2 cost for 4/4 and very versatile so I can swing with either type. Its also an Option Select because that 2 fate could be Ishiken Initiate or it could have been Outwit, or Calling in Favors if I needed. I'm not locked into buying Ishiken Initiate just because I reserved 2 fate.

Kachiko does not have that Option Select yet...

Ya I remember you being excited about the Initiate.

Hey if you feel she is not good in a situation don't drop her just play bunch of smaller cards. On the other hand if you make some hopeless attack and you have 5 fate and in need of 10/11 political strength and targeted bow in one card than you can play her.

41 minutes ago, BordOne said:

All the post above.

You do know what you're essentially doing is passing your playstyle as the playstyle to take, with any deck you use since at this point I don't really know what deck your using anymore. Stating opinions and passing them up as facts are the surest way to get people riled up. You're saying you play a certain way, and if you're not doing it like that, you're playing it wrong. Yeah, goodluck with that.

Spiritcallers and staging grounds? I said throw out honor reliant cards. This 2 doesn't require any honor, hence I didn't say make a deck without em.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

Tomello easy, calling people stupid on the internet is the part of etiquiette.

And dude completly seriously I hope you are not as angry as the tone of the post seems to suggest. I wish you all the best lol. You call me stupid I call your argument stupid this is just usual forum stuff no need to shorten your life expectancy over that.

2 hours ago, BordOne said:

And dude calm down with Lion hate. You want to hate on me hate on Unicorn because this is the clan that I have most games as. And also don't assume what people do and don't do because you look effing stupid.

Yeah, that's exactly what you did to me and you're advocating not to? You sure are full of contradictory statements aren't you? I didn't make this personal, you did.