I'm a bit worried about the new mechanics introduced in the game, one of the characters that deny skill counting, and especially that which focuses on having the imperial favor.

These cost 3 characters who deny the opponent's skill count seems to mess up the gameplay, and seeing the new phoenix char in conjunction with the stronghold (negates the skill count of chars with less glory) I kept thinking about how the crab and the scorpion will deal with it ..

The other worries me more, we have seen some characters with very strong abilities when you control the favor, that can really unbalance the game, until then well seen considering the odds of having the favor .. however begin to appear cards that facilitate getting the favor, and this can make the game a mess, for example the new unique holding that adds 3 glory in the count, the first player to play it can have a great advantage in the game.

What do you think of that, will it be a matter of concern?

25 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

I'm a bit worried about the new mechanics introduced in the game, one of the characters that deny skill counting, and especially that which focuses on having the imperial favor.

These cost 3 characters who deny the opponent's skill count seems to mess up the gameplay, and seeing the new phoenix char in conjunction with the stronghold (negates the skill count of chars with less glory) I kept thinking about how the crab and the scorpion will deal with it ..

The other worries me more, we have seen some characters with very strong abilities when you control the favor, that can really unbalance the game, until then well seen considering the odds of having the favor .. however begin to appear cards that facilitate getting the favor, and this can make the game a mess, for example the new unique holding that adds 3 glory in the count, the first player to play it can have a great advantage in the game.

What do you think of that, will it be a matter of concern?

In short, no.

There are going to be cards that are just awesome in certain matchups. To take on the matchups you highlighted, Way of the Scorpion is the worst card in the game for Phoenix. How do we deal with it? We accept that it's going to be awful when it comes up, and then we do our best to adapt. It makes the matchup different, challenging, and fun!

The importance of the Imperial Favour, in my opinion, is going to do wonders for the game. Whereas at the moment it's a little bit of an afterthought, once more decks start caring about it, there will be even more layers of decisions to be made.

I'm excited for what lies in store!

Yeah, right now in dragon, with our very balanced skills, there is very little reason not to attack twice on most turns, but even if I never run any of our favor matters cards (and I very well might never run either of them), if my local meta starts running theirs then I might have to attack less every turn so as to have some glory up for the favor lobby, and since most of the favor matters cards are snowball cards, we might even start to see some players spend an entire round not attacking just to get the favor away from an opponent with one of those peeps out. While I can get how that sort of play environment might be unfun for some people, I do like the sort of high value decisions that not only matter but are also actually hard to make. That's an issue I have with a lot of card games in that the top tier decks tend to just play themselves because for any given hand there are plays that are just objectively the correct thing to do, almost regardless of what your opponent is doing, so there aren't really any real decisions to make, and so while I enjoy the deckbuilding and theorizing, the gameplay can be boring. However in l5r, the gameplay matters so much more than the deckbuilding, to the point where I'd posit that a great player with a mediocre deck will do better than a mediocre player with a great deck under most circumstances, and now that the favor will actually matter, that's just one more skill that needs to be mastered to get better at the game. Personally I like that focus on tactics because it's something that's missing from too many games, imo.

The only thing that would concern me is if one clan, or a very small number of clans, had ways to just take the favor, without other clans reliably being able to same. A neutral card that allowed for this wouldn't bother me as anyone could run it. A conflict card in a few clans that is easily splashed wouldn't be too bad, although I'm a little worried that it would play out the way Crane and Scorpion counterspells did and I'm still not a fan of how those went down. A clan that just straight up takes the favor and then uses it for strong effects to allow them to keep getting the favor back is not a good idea, imo.

I don't mind "imperial favor matters cards" I'd just worry if we start seeing only a select few clans being able to consistently get and/or keep the favor as that would essentially shut the other clans out of that aspect of the game, or force them to commit so many cards to trying to keep pace with the haves that they are weakened to the point that they struggle in other aspects of the game. I don't like it when we get decks that auto-lose to something and just have to accept it. "I was doing well until I ran in to clan x that got the favor and I couldn't do anything about that because my clan y doesn't have good favor interaction" is not a feel good experience.

20 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

The only thing that would concern me is if one clan, or a very small number of clans, had ways to just take the favor, without other clans reliably being able to same.

The Scorpion has that with the new leaked Fawning Diplomat. But the only card they have discarding the Favor is Sake House Confidant, and is not as strong as the other “Discard Favor” cards (at least until more Shinobis are released)

I'm pro. The new magistrates offer interesting limitations and each clan has his own take on them. Don't forget that the Phoenix one only works while attacking, also negates his own with less glory, needs the stronghold against most clans and most importantly he is a bushi in a shugenja and courtier clan.

I'm happy to see interesting cards, the reason I got a bit bored by agot2 due to dull cards.

Unfortunately, there are clans more inclined toward getting the favour than others, which creates a totem pole when it comes to using these new toys. Censure is available to all, but only few can get it with consistency. FFG seems aware of this when they made that Unicorn card who gets a (tiny) bonus when not have the favour and the Scorpion who takes the favour. However, having cards to take the favour leaves those who can get it naturally already on the advantage with space spared for other stuff.

The only REALLY absurd cards are the Lion 5 coster and Aged Crone, but the magistrates are pretty bad from a design standpoint.

The Ikoma flat out breaks the entire notion of Economy, throwing out huge amounts of fate value for very little loss, and since he can be Charged or Spiritcaller'd is always relevant. Lion has shown that its real theme is cheating out characters, which is a terrible notion in a game where a lot of the balancing is supposed to come from players having similar fate production. When you don't have the favor he has incredible keywords and a solid stat line, when you do have the favor he can basically end the game right there, especially if For Greater Glory is in your hand. I question who thought he was ok to see print.

The Crone flat out attempts to deny people the ability to even play their cards, which is just an unfun play design so early in the game's lifecycle.

Most of the magistrates are bad design, because just shutting off interaction is always a real negative play experience, especially with the Phoenix one since players have no way to buff a character's glory out of phoenix. Just shutting off characters is such a burden, especially in the FIRST cycle of the game. Not all of them are good, but the good ones like Swift and Haughty are really oppressive when they get going.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Crane magistrate made everything more than 3 count for nothing.

11 minutes ago, Hordeoverseer said:

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Crane magistrate made everything more than 3 count for nothing.

Will be fun when two magistrates are in the same conflict and nobody counts their skill toward resolution.

Bushi: Uhh... you two? We’re in the middle of a battle here.

Magistrate 1: Shut up. As I was saying, fellow magistrate, you can’t. The emperor says so.

Magistrate 2: Well, the emperor says you also can’t, esteemed magistrate.

Magistrate 1: Ok, all you heard us! Nobody can! Just go home! Stop it! This is too silly! Stop it all!

I'm wary of the magistrates because they create a complex interaction with the game. It adds an awkward layer of who's stats to count and who's to ignore that could slow down games and create very awkward situations. If these cards are "good" its because they negate a lot of what a player has worked for which can become oppressive in a game. They all work so differently that its difficult to build a deck considering their effects, leading to cards which are include in case x card appears, or for x match up or you simply suffer a horrible loss that you are not really able to do anything about... I'm not a big fan of that.

We'll see how they play - I hope they all suck.

I'm not so concerned with the Phoenix magistrate. He's only 1 glory, 3 if buffed. It requires an action from them to shut off most characters, even 1 glory dudes will still function until they use the stronghold on him.

Keep in mind as well, not only does his ability only work against lower glory characters (doesn't work against ties), it also only works on attack, and it's a constant ability so it only works while the magistrate is attacking. So you have the opportunity to decide who defends against him after the conflict and attackers are declared, and anything that sends him home removes his effect from the conflict.

It comes down to whether or not you have a rout, or a Clan Champion with 3 glory, if you're going to mount a successful defense at all.

Cloud the Mind and Outwit are also both options as well.

15 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Cloud the Mind and Outwit are also both options as well.

High Kick.

Lion's Pride Brawler if you're first for the turn as well.

Hiroue can drag him in to defend when you're first as well.

Mirumoto's Fury.

Kisada forces them to waste an action before buffing the magistrate's glory.

For Shame.

6 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

The only REALLY absurd cards are the Lion 5 coster and Aged Crone, but the magistrates are pretty bad from a design standpoint.

The Ikoma flat out breaks the entire notion of Economy, throwing out huge amounts of fate value for very little loss, and since he can be Charged or Spiritcaller'd is always relevant. Lion has shown that its real theme is cheating out characters, which is a terrible notion in a game where a lot of the balancing is supposed to come from players having similar fate production. When you don't have the favor he has incredible keywords and a solid stat line, when you do have the favor he can basically end the game right there, especially if For Greater Glory is in your hand. I question who thought he was ok to see print.

The Crone flat out attempts to deny people the ability to even play their cards, which is just an unfun play design so early in the game's lifecycle.

Most of the magistrates are bad design, because just shutting off interaction is always a real negative play experience, especially with the Phoenix one since players have no way to buff a character's glory out of phoenix. Just shutting off characters is such a burden, especially in the FIRST cycle of the game. Not all of them are good, but the good ones like Swift and Haughty are really oppressive when they get going.

I have a strong suspicion that every card in the first cycle was designed with the assumption that every deck in existence will run 3 Cloud the Minds.

I imagine a lot of these cards probably had a lot to do with the rumored firing of the person previously in charge of play testing.

Just rumors, of course.

56 minutes ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Kisada forces them to waste an action before buffing the magistrate's glory.

For Shame.

The Phoenix SH is "until end of phase." They could use it pre-conflict and not care about Kisada.

Whoops, that's true.

Ehh, I don't have any local Crabs, some one who knows better will need to give their counter.

I don't see why mirumoto's fury would help, unless the phoenix magistrate specifies that it only works while ready, as all it does is bows him, so without the while ready caveat (I don't recall if that was there, but I don't think it was) it doesn't stop him. The only reason high kick works is because it specifically blanks the target in addition to bowing.

Crap, wrong again. I was misremembering Fury as sending them home. My bad.

I think the Magistrates are fine. With the way the Dynasty deck works, they are all open information - you generally know that you're open can put them in to play, and you know what they do when you commit to challenges. They are all expensive for their stats; thus their abilities should be very good. This makes them all quite limited - they do one thing, but that's about it.

So, is that one thing 'broken' or overpowered? No. At the absolute best, they get a free unopposed challenge which is powerful but not ridiculous considering their draw backs (obviously, Stoic is kind of the reverse). They don't break provinces by themselves, so to really gain benefit from them you have to devote additional resources towards them. And most of the time, this just means that the opponent is going to have to devote control cards towards stopping them (which is fine, prevents the game being all about high cost characters) or change how they play (e.g. recruiting differently against Enigmatic/Swift).

Phoenix Magistrate may be something of a hoser for low Glory clans, but a) bad match ups happen, b) you're playing a card that's probably significantly worse in other match ups to enable it, and c) the Phoenix stronghold is already situational, giving them situations that make it more useful is probably not a bad thing.

(Also, this isn't exactly new design territory. Thrones 1.0 had a cycle of cards very similar to these guys; I'd like to think that FFG have some idea of what they are doing, even if it doesn't always seem like it).

Controlling the favour is a good mechanic that changes the game from 'just throw bodies at each other'. It adds decision points; players have to value winning the favour (or denying it to the opponent). Out of the Core, controlling the favour was an afterthought at best; now it's relevant. Yes, you can run cards that help you control the favour - why is this bad? It means you're not running cards that do other things. And if the opponent like it, they can take actions to prevent it - like smashing a province holding The Imperial City. I'm not sure how any of this unbalances the game. And again, this isn't new design space, considering controlling the favour is basically Dominance from Thrones, and 2.0 has a faction built around it - heck, the Imperial City is essentially the L5R version of The Iron Throne.

Having said that - abilities being made more powerful and then locked behind controlling the favour is potentially a balance issue, but it's one specific to the particular cards and not really an issue with the mechanic itself. Ujaki is crazy, but so are other cards. He's not crazy because you have to control the Imperial Favour, he's crazy because apparently someone though a potential 10+ cost worth of free characters was fine in a faction that has multiple ways to abuse it.

If anything requiring the favor becomes good - then Keeper roles are even more powerful with the potentially free Initiates to keep a good amount of glory ready during the end of the conflict phase...

Keeper roles really need some support, gha I hate them.

Now I remember why I listed Mirumoto's Fury. You don't need guys to defend if they're all bowed. An honored, buffed magistrate could probably solo a province. If they try it, bow him. Now they need another guy with 3+ glory to keep fighting. Same with For Shame.