1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

All defenses against Watch Commander are equally valid against the Crone. Plus she is a 0 Military/1 Political 1 cost character that is dirt easy to kill.

As to playing to the strengths of Lion, maybe she does but all Clans have cards that do that, every time Scorpion get a 0 Glory Courtier does it break the game, how about a Crane with high political and a harpoon or send home effect, or a Dragon with a bonus for having attachments. There are always going to be cards that from the outside appear to good, but when you stop and take a step back you often find that they are not as powerful as they seem.

If you drop her during a conflict there is nothing you can do. Just how many kill actions do you think there are? I didn't include card specific tech against either (just general game mechanics) because those cards may change as the game does. Though Let Go works anytime for free and is widely used. Most of the kill actions are during a conflict and have other costs or extensive set up. I was trying to give your argument a fair shot but going into specific card interactions there is no comparison. Additionally you can also use those easy kill actions against potential watch commander characters.

Watch Commander also does not play into the strengths of the Crab (sacrifice and big beat sticks), the way Ageless Crone plays into Lion's. I don't know where you are going with your comparisons to other clan's strengths. Having a 0 glory guy does nothing. I need to be either dishonored to get the benefit or honored to get the drawback (balance), and that is not considering the impact dishonor has during the fate phase.

22 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Each clan has its own strengths. I do not find Lion to be much stronger than Crab, nor do I see Crone to be a card that plays to some particular strengths/weaknesses of the clan hence I find it reasonable to compare cards with similar effects. Like the smugness tho

edit: also the main argument against the crone is that it halts interaction so strength of the clans is irrelevant

I agree that strength of a clan is irrelevant, however, you're kind of cramming it all into your post, which is why I pointed it out.

WC and crone are not an equal comparison. While both increase the "cost" of a card in some way, paying honor is not the same as paying extra fate. If I just have the 1 fate in my pool............I can't interact with Crone. If I'm at 1 honor and can't pay the cost of Watch Commander............I've got much bigger problems. Being at 1 fate is a common board state, being at 1 honor is not, so the comparison between WC and crone both preventing someone from playing is not very accurate.

Earlier in that same post you are telling people to prove you wrong by actually playing Lion, assuming they haven't already, yet you go on to say in another post that you have more games under your belt as Unicorn. If you don't see the irony there, I just don't even know how we can even begin to have a rational discussion about this.

Lion hasn't just won one big event. They won worlds, and at PAX Lion had two of the top four decks. They are clearly one of the top clans in the core only environment and the dynasty packs have not only added cards to what we already know to be a devastating combination of Charge/Spiritcaller/FGG/LPB/etc., they are also covering up areas that other decks could try exploit against them..........in comparison, some clans are still struggling to even be viable. I could see why some people would have a problem with this. You don't, and that's fine, but, telling people their complaints are invalid by insinuating they haven't played enough or are playing wrong is a bunch of carp

........and we all know what happens to carp.................Shoju pokes it!

14 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Wait, I missed something. Attachment removal gets rid of Watch Commander, but doesn't get rid of Crone. And no character is 'easy' to kill. There's basically assassinate, and in rare situations, I Can Swim, Noble Sacrifice, Way of the Crab, and Fallen in Battle (which are all too complicated to present as answers, let alone easy ones.) So, you can assassinate her if you have it, and have to pay the extra 1 fate on top of the honor loss. Not exactly easy to answer.

Not to mention the same kill that takes care of crone could potentially kill the character that is carrying Watch Commander.

40 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

There are always going to be cards that from the outside appear to good, but when you stop and take a step back you often find that they are not as powerful as they seem.

Yeah........now that I take a step back...........Lion's Pride Brawler isn't all that...............oh wait..............nvm she's still bonkers.

8 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Reactivity is an inherent weakness as opposed to proactivity so I do not what kind of advantage you are writing about. Could you explain it a bit more?

You are also not taking into the account the fact that Lion is in card disadvantage most of the time due to honor requirements on their characters so they need their cards to be as impactful as possible. Crone strikes me as very unimpactful/ straight up weak in some matchups, while ok in the others. Furthermore Lion plays a lot of events themselves so it makes her look even less atrractive

@AradonTemplar You are missing countless send home effects and some blank effects, which are often on characters so you can get rid of her for free.

Do you think Forged Edict is weak? It is only reactive. Your dynasty deck is all you need to win conflicts, you conflict deck merely protects your characters. There is a huge advantage to making people play cards in order to not lose a province. Through better board state you force your opponent to play cards which in turn lets you bid more as they bid more.

How many characters have honor requirements to play? One....and he is FREE , provided you maintain parity. Scraping the bottom of the barrel to downplay this.

If you see this card and think it is weak, it just goes to show you how many amazing cards Lion has to choose from. If you see a card with an oppressive effect and think meh....Every clan would kill for a character like this in faction. Even knowing they would get a nerfed version.

26 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I agree that strength of a clan is irrelevant, however, you're kind of cramming it all into your post, which is why I pointed it out.

WC and crone are not an equal comparison. While both increase the "cost" of a card in some way, paying honor is not the same as paying extra fate. If I just have the 1 fate in my pool............I can't interact with Crone. If I'm at 1 honor and can't pay the cost of Watch Commander............I've got much bigger problems. Being at 1 fate is a common board state, being at 1 honor is not, so the comparison between WC and crone both preventing someone from playing is not very accurate.

Yup so the Crone requires you to pay fate instead of honor I agree the price is higher. Watch commander targets only the opponent and works on every card type so I would say it is only fair.

26 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Earlier in that same post you are telling people to prove you wrong by actually playing Lion, assuming they haven't already, yet you go on to say in another post that you have more games under your belt as Unicorn. If you don't see the irony there, I just don't even know how we can even begin to have a rational discussion about this.

I do not see any irony here, pretty surprised you do since what I said just strengthens my point. I have around one hundred games as lion and even more as Unicorn. I saw both sides of the fence and I assume other people could see it too if they put a bit more time into it

26 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Lion hasn't just won one big event. They won worlds, and at PAX Lion had two of the top four decks. They are clearly one of the top clans in the core only environment and the dynasty packs have not only added cards to what we already know to be a devastating combination of Charge/Spiritcaller/FGG/LPB/etc., they are also covering up areas that other decks could try exploit against them..........in comparison, some clans are still struggling to even be viable. I could see why some people would have a problem with this. You don't, and that's fine, but, telling people their complaints are invalid by insinuating they haven't played enough or are playing wrong is a bunch of carp

........and we all know what happens to carp.................Shoju pokes it

They are one of the top clans just like Crane, Scorp, Dragon, Crab and soon Phoenix. Lion wasn't overrepresented from what I remember it was very similar in numbers to scorp and crane. Also the control group is pretty small for now.

And dude I didn't say anything about the strength of the clan aside from "it is similar on power level with rest of the top clans" which it is.

I am not insinuating anything but it does sound like you didnt play Lion much just from the tone of your posts

8 minutes ago, Tomello said:

Do you think Forged Edict is weak? It is only reactive. Your dynasty deck is all you need to win conflicts, you conflict deck merely protects your characters. There is a huge advantage to making people play cards in order to not lose a province. Through better board state you force your opponent to play cards which in turn lets you bid more as they bid more.

How many characters have honor requirements to play? One....and he is FREE , provided you maintain parity. Scraping the bottom of the barrel to downplay this.

If you see this card and think it is weak, it just goes to show you how many amazing cards Lion has to choose from. If you see a card with an oppressive effect and think meh....Every clan would kill for a character like this in faction. Even knowing they would get a nerfed version.

I didn't say reactive cards are weak, however the reactive cards are inherently weaker than proactive ones, it just comes from game theory. To use a proactive card you just need to draw it. To use reactive card you need to draw it at the right time and then you need the opponent to play a card you can react to.

Your two forged edicts don't do anything while opponent plays a fine katana to break your province.

No, the answer is three - Obstinate recruit, Venerable historian and Steadfast Samurai. All of these work best with honor advantage.

I do not think this cards weak. All I think is that it is not a card that "flat out makes you unable to play the game man! flat out" as some other people on this thread have said

8 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Yup so the Crone requires you to pay fate instead of honor I agree the price is higher. Watch commander targets only the opponent and works on every card type so I would say it is only fair.

I do not see any irony here, pretty surprised you do since what I said just strengthens my point. I have around one hundred games as lion and played even more as Unicorn. I saw both sides of the fence and I assume other people could see it too if they put a bit more time into it

They are one of the top clans just like Crane, Scorp, Dragon, Crab and soon Phoenix. Lion wasn't overrepresented from what I remember it was very similar in numbers to scorp and crane. Also the control group is pretty small for now.

And dude I didn't say anything about the strength of the clan aside from "it is similar on power level with rest of the top clans" which it is.

I am not insinuating anything but it does sound like you didnt play Lion much just from the tone of your posts

It's clear you do not want to discuss this at all. You've clearly adopted your opinion as fact and have the baseless comparions to support your own rhetoric. You've even got a nice tagline for anyone that disagrees with you.

Best of luck to you.

11 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I didn't say reactive cards are weak, however the reactive cards are inherently weaker than proactive ones, it just comes from game theory. To use a proactive cards you just need to draw it. To use reactive cards you need to draw it at the right time and then you need the opponent to play a card you can react to.

Your two forged edicts don't do anything while opponent plays a fine katana to break your province.

No, the answer is three - Obstinate recruit, Venerable historian and Steadfast Samurai. All of these work best with honor advantage.

I do not think this card s weak. All I think is that it is not a card that "flat out makes you unable to play the game man!" as some other people on this thread have said

L5R is a reactive game, that is the way it was designed. Lion is a reactive clan, but in way that negates any effects your opponent can throw at you. Which 100% of the time they NEED to do to not lose.

There are no honor requirements to play the historian or steadfast, they just get better (much better). I would 100% take those restrictions over honor dial restrictions.

It is not that the card is flat out broken, just that the clan that needs the least help...seems to get the most. In Lion it makes matches against highly political decks (which were already a 50/50) even better.

2 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

It's clear you do not want to discuss this at all. You've clearly adopted your opinion as fact and have the baseless comparions to support your own rhetoric. You've even got a nice tagline for anyone that disagrees with you.

Best of luck to you.

Well I didn't hear anything other then endless snark from you. It doesn't pair well with obvious lack of anger management and total aversion for discussion with people representing different point of view, thats for sure.

Best of luck good sir

9 minutes ago, Tomello said:

L5R is a reactive game, that is the way it was designed. Lion is a reactive clan, but in way that negates any effects your opponent can throw at you. Which 100% of the time they NEED to do to not lose.

There are no honor requirements to play the historian or steadfast, they just get better (much better).

It is not that the card is flat out broken, just that the clan that needs the least help...seems to get the most. In Lion it makes matches against highly political decks (which were already a 50/50) even better.

L5R is a reactive game I do agree but it doesn't mean that reactive cards are inherently stronger.

You do not ever play historian if your honor is lower(albeit I agree I wasn't 100% precise).

I agree that Lion got a lot of strong cards, I don't know if they need help "the least", I find them similar to Crane and Scorp, which also got a lot of strong cards. I do not agree with the main target being the "Crone" tho she is not that strong. If I would pick a card to hate on it would be the 5 coster which is broken due to Spirit Caller interaction(which if you can find it I called broken during Lion clan reveal already).

10 minutes ago, BordOne said:

L5R is a reactive game I do agree but it doesn't mean that reactive cards are inherently stronger.

You do not ever play historian if your honor is lower(albeit I agree I wasn't 100% precise).

I agree that Lion got a lot of strong cards, I don't know they need help "the least", I find them similar to Crane and Scorp, which also got a lot of strong cards. I do not agree with the main target of criticisms. If I would pick a card to hate on it would be the 5 coster which is broken due to Spirit Caller interaction(which if you can find it I called broken during Lion clan reveal already).

Different metas I guess. Lion is playing 3-5 characters per turn. You play it to free up provinces for Staging grounds, Ujiaki, and Charges.

Scorpion did not get strong cards unless you count Policy Debate. Maybe Fawning Diplomat, but the rest are crap. Though I don't know the rest.

That guy is crazy powerful, but it makes for a win more interaction. If you pull him off and have an FGG you win. Which while not as fun, I still get to play. The Crone makes for an unfun interaction, where the cards I would play (that you already have cancels for) I can't play at all. Again, Lion has an answer for everything the game can throw at it, it by far has the most cancels in the game.

9 hours ago, BordOne said:

I have around one hundred games as lion and even more as Unicorn. I saw both sides of the fence and I assume other people could see it too if they put a bit more time into it.

Ok, not relevant to the discussion, but you’ll have to explain this to me. L5R was released October 6, roughly 50 days ago, and you have played more than 200 games?! That means more than 4 games a day, everyday! How’s that possible?!

if that’s true, seriously, man... you need to step down a little bit. Remember that the first step is admitting it. Now repeat with me: “Hi, I’m BordOne, and I’m a L5R addict”

Or he was a playtester

2 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Ok, not relevant to the discussion, but you’ll have to explain this to me. L5R was released October 6, roughly 50 days ago, and you have played more than 200 games?! That means more than 4 games a day, everyday! How’s that possible?!

if that’s true, seriously, man... you need to step down a little bit. Remember that the first step is admitting it. Now repeat with me: “Hi, I’m BordOne, and I’m a L5R addict”

I am an addict. I started playing the game roughly half a year ago tho when first spoilers started popping out, even before the whole card pool was released, so the number isn't really so impressive.

The number of games I played with real cards(not proxies/through internet) is smaller.

17 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

They are bad design mainly because the point of the card isn't to feed into the exciting "you go, I go" play style that L5R is famous for. They are designed to basically win by making that NOT happen. Both of these cards are designed to be played and stop people from flat out interacting period.

I think at this point that it might be better to say "play style that L5R was famous for" In the CCG outright counter cards were rare ("Fall on your knees" perhaps), but the LCG has them everywhere. We have cards that cancel the first actions (Kisada) cards that cancel actions targeting Shugenja, cards that cancel if you are honoured, cards that cancel if you have a courtier, cards that cancel if you have the favour, cards that cancel if you discard an attachment, cards that prevent any actions being taken, cards that make actions horribly expensive.

Now in total those are only about 10 cards out of the whole pool, but they have a huge influence, and I've been constantly surprised to see ever more "you can't do this" or "cancel action" cards coming out when the game is so young.

13 hours ago, Tomello said:

Different metas I guess. Lion is playing 3-5 characters per turn. You play it to free up provinces for Staging grounds, Ujiaki, and Charges.

Scorpion did not get strong cards unless you count Policy Debate. Maybe Fawning Diplomat, but the rest are crap. Though I don't know the rest.

That guy is crazy powerful, but it makes for a win more interaction. If you pull him off and have an FGG you win. Which while not as fun, I still get to play. The Crone makes for an unfun interaction, where the cards I would play (that you already have cancels for) I can't play at all. Again, Lion has an answer for everything the game can throw at it, it by far has the most cancels in the game.

Thats not true.. Lion didn't have a counter, or a attachment discard, and we cant use one of the best cards in the game: cloud the mind (and any cards that requires a shugenja like embrace the void). We also didn't have any bow cards, and the best cards abilities are always atacking, so the opponents have always a chance to do something with their first action..

Basically with Lion cards only we have to accept everything our opponents do. Display of power: ok, Cavalry Reserves: fine, Embrace the void: take my money, Ambush: well played, Against the waves: sure!, yokuni: ok become a 5/5 pride brawler, no problem.. etc..

After worlds every card Lion gets is "Oh my god, now nothing can't stop them.." but I know most of these complainers didn't even tested the cards.. I personally don't think Aged crone is that amazing, is a open strategy char like steward of law, and in most cases will just delay the game, i'm testing it to be sure is worth getting another cards place.

Look at the cards phoenix already got: A +2 holding that controls and read every card your opponent will draw for the rest of game, a magistrate that honored is 5/5 and deny more than 90% of characters skills, Kaede , water prodigy a shugenja that will participate 2 conflicts each turn, or 3-4 if you play against the waves, embrace the void 2 fates for 1 card.. Do you know what I think about that? Amazing, strong cards that people will use, more diversified decks, stop complaining after each good card appears, the worst thing is seeing cards like the Lion and Crane unique holdings, that probably no one will run..

Admittedly, it's not fun to be besieged from all sides with argument whether you're Clan is overpowered or not.

All I know is that I'm heavily considering dropping my Dragon splash from Crab to go with Lion, getting Kisada getting Mirumoto's Fury is not fun and Crone is a really good wall against getting your stuff censure/voice/forged edict'ed.

3 hours ago, L5RBr said:

Thats not true.. Lion didn't have a counter, or a attachment discard, and we cant use one of the best cards in the game: cloud the mind (and any cards that requires a shugenja like embrace the void). We also didn't have any bow cards, and the best cards abilities are always atacking, so the opponents have always a chance to do something with their first action..

Basically with Lion cards only we have to accept everything our opponents do. Display of power: ok, Cavalry Reserves: fine, Embrace the void: take my money, Ambush: well played, Against the waves: sure!, yokuni: ok become a 5/5 pride brawler, no problem.. etc..

After worlds every card Lion gets is "Oh my god, now nothing can't stop them.." but I know most of these complainers didn't even tested the cards.. I personally don't think Aged crone is that amazing, is a open strategy char like steward of law, and in most cases will just delay the game, i'm testing it to be sure is worth getting another cards place.

Look at the cards phoenix already got: A +2 holding that controls and read every card your opponent will draw for the rest of game, a magistrate that honored is 5/5 and deny more than 90% of characters skills, Kaede , water prodigy a shugenja that will participate 2 conflicts each turn, or 3-4 if you play against the waves, embrace the void 2 fates for 1 card.. Do you know what I think about that? Amazing, strong cards that people will use, more diversified decks, stop complaining after each good card appears, the worst thing is seeing cards like the Lion and Crane unique holdings, that probably no one will run..

Maybe I miscommunicated what I meant by counter. You already have anti-bow, anti-fade, recursion, and will have anti-send home/dishonor. Now you have anti-event. Again it is the combination of these things all in one faction. That make every defense card less good. So what if cannot really do anything about your opponent building a bigger force, you can still run all those defensive cards that your opponent has less options for and or have buffs. You actually get to play. The point of why I dislike it, is that it makes it not fun play experience. Not being able to play cards in a card game is not a fun time, or having all of your plays undone is similarly unfun. Boohoo your opponent gets to actually play their cards. Are you actually reading your complaints?

You also have 1 Shugenja in faction that everyone always runs and Miya Mystic, so you have anti-attachment and spell options (before you consider splashing. When you are going through 3+ dynasty cards per turn....it is not hard to get a shugenja on the board. So you do have access...I am sorry that not everything is just handed to Lion.

I am also sorry you will get a holding not as good as staging ground...how rough life must be.

Every faction gets coasters, Lion might seem to get more. That is only because they already have high powered cards that not everything will compete. The notion that Ageless Crone isn't an instant include, should tell you just how many powerful options you have. I know Scorpion players that would love to have the Crone's ability on Kachiko. When other clans are willing to pay 5x the cost on a unique character...yeah it is good. But again that is not the point.

Lion are good. Crone is pretty nice, bit of a work around to play and afford the other stuff, but still nice. Each faction has cool stuff, and you need to play around their tricks.

59 minutes ago, Tomello said:

Maybe I miscommunicated what I meant by counter. You already have anti-bow, anti-fade, recursion, and will have anti-send home/dishonor. Now you have anti-event. Again it is the combination of these things all in one faction. That make every defense card less good. So what if cannot really do anything about your opponent building a bigger force, you can still run all those defensive cards that your opponent has less options for and or have buffs. You actually get to play. The point of why I dislike it, is that it makes it not fun play experience. Not being able to play cards in a card game is not a fun time, or having all of your plays undone is similarly unfun. Boohoo your opponent gets to actually play their cards. Are you actually reading your complaints?

You also have 1 Shugenja in faction that everyone always runs and Miya Mystic, so you have anti-attachment and spell options (before you consider splashing. When you are going through 3+ dynasty cards per turn....it is not hard to get a shugenja on the board. So you do have access...I am sorry that not everything is just handed to Lion.

I am also sorry you will get a holding not as good as staging ground...how rough life must be.

Every faction gets coasters, Lion might seem to get more. That is only because they already have high powered cards that not everything will compete. The notion that Ageless Crone isn't an instant include, should tell you just how many powerful options you have. I know Scorpion players that would love to have the Crone's ability on Kachiko. When other clans are willing to pay 5x the cost on a unique character...yeah it is good. But again that is not the point.

Its kind of funny to hear a scorpion player complaining about not fun play experience. What about forged edict, calling in favors, fiery madness, way of scorpion, spies at court, and if is not enought splash dragon to get mirumotos fury, just mentioning the core set... Do you think denying your opponents actions and nerf their chars is fine, but when another clan receives a char that raises everyone costs thats unfair... really?

About your anti-list scorpion have anti-event, anti-attachments, anti-honor, etc.. And be cool test of courage is not that good, a dead card in midgame, most lions should run 1 at max..

If a Lion player chooses to run Miya Mystic, that has no synergy with the entire deck, do you really think 6 shugenjas are enought to run cloud the mind? 2 choices or you have poor arguments or you have to think a little more how to construct a deck..

If you want to complain, do it about Ujiaki, he is a real great card that you dont have access to, now stop crying about the other clans having control possibilities. You don't like anti-game, me neither, for me there will be no cards like aged crone, forged edict, voice of honor, hiruma ambusher, etc.. but it seems you like to use this kind of cards, just don't want them in the table's otherside.

2 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

Its kind of funny to hear a scorpion player complaining about not fun play experience. What about forged edict, calling in favors, fiery madness, way of scorpion, spies at court, and if is not enought splash dragon to get mirumotos fury, just mentioning the core set... Do you think denying your opponents actions and nerf their chars is fine, but when another clan receives a char that raises everyone costs thats unfair... really?

About your anti-list scorpion have anti-event, anti-attachments, anti-honor, etc.. And be cool test of courage is not that good, a dead card in midgame, most lions should run 1 at max..

If a Lion player chooses to run Miya Mystic, that has no synergy with the entire deck, do you really think 6 shugenjas are enought to run cloud the mind? 2 choices or you have poor arguments or you have to think a little more how to construct a deck..

If you want to complain, do it about Ujiaki, he is a real great card that you dont have access to, now stop crying about the other clans having control possibilities. You don't like anti-game, me neither, for me there will be no cards like aged crone, forged edict, voice of honor, hiruma ambusher, etc.. but it seems you like to use this kind of cards, just don't want them in the table's otherside.

Those Scorpion actions have cost to have the effect. First I need the right character in play, a card, a fate (maybe), and an honor; and they only impact one card played. None of that really helps me win as much as slow you down. I won't rehash why I think the combination in Lion is bad for the game, go back and read the posts. You are not comparing like to like. Each clan has strengths and weaknesses. It just seems like one clan is getting the strengths of the other clans with none of the drawback.

As for test of courage, it will only get better as more dishonor and send home effects enter the game. There are not that many ways to just honor people, just a testament to how good the cards are when you think a card like this and say meh.

As for the shugenja thing; you said there are NO anti-attachment options and NO access to spells. I point out options and then you complain that the options you have are not as good as just not running them. So your original complaint must not be a big issue if you can skip them all together. Are you reading your complaints? Lion have minor weaknesses (by your own complaints), which are all but eliminated with cards like these and playing to their strengths. The rest of us have to run those poor options.

I already said Ujiaki is a great card and designed to a different power level than most of the rest of like characters. If you pull off the combo you will probably win, I don't mind losing that is not the issue. Again each clan has strengths and weaknesses, but one clan seems to get their weaknesses all but eliminated before other clans are even viable.

Crone puts the nail in the coffin after the Lion plays FGG, as well as making the courtier conflict package easier to run.

When the Lion drop FGG after activating Ujaki and/or Charge, and get 3-5 free fate (which could easily be upwards of 10+ fate in character value) it already tilts the game so far into the Lion's favor that it's pretty difficult to come back from that. One of the few options is to play out your characters and try to regain some sort of board presence to at least hope to stop Lion from just rolling over you, and, maybe find a clever way to mount a counter attack. The problem that Crone creates is that while it raises the cost for everyone to play events, she is going to be in play when Lion have a distinct fate advantage and essentially will prevent their opponent from playing events because they used up their fate to try and build up their board. Lion won't care because they will have fate in the bank and can afford the extra cost.

The end result is Crone prevents your opponent from playing events, just like guest, only cheaper.

So yeah you can splash Crone, but, what else do other clans pick up from Lion? Phoenix, scorpion and to some extent Crane and Dragon are taken out of the mix as they are slim on bushi to make FGG worthwhile. So really you have Unicorn and Crab that are possible homes for the Crone splash. Unicorn really can't afford the space because they are lacking so much in the dynasty, it's difficult to justify trading anything from the existing Lion splash Unicorn use. Crab could probably pull it off, but, I don't know if the return is worth it as you're only banking on the FGG play as Crab still lack enough courtiers to make use of the trait So while Crone can be played in other decks, she is not nearly as good out of them as she is in Lion, to the point that she is essentially a Lion exclusive..........which I think is part of the frustration people are starting to have with Lion.

There could also be a bit of lore disconnect as the Lion who are known for their military prowess currently have 3 of the best courtiers in the game. I have to admit that seems a little odd to me.

8 minutes ago, Tomello said:

Those Scorpion actions have cost to have the effect. First I need the right character in play, a card, a fate (maybe), and an honor; and they only impact one card played. None of that really helps me win as much as slow you down. I won't rehash why I think the combination in Lion is bad for the game, go back and read the posts. You are not comparing like to like. Each clan has strengths and weaknesses. It just seems like one clan is getting the strengths of the other clans with none of the drawback .

As for test of courage, it will only get better as more dishonor and send home effects enter the game. There are not that many ways to just honor people, just a testament to how good the cards are when you think a card like this and say meh.

As for the shugenja thing; you said there are NO anti-attachment options and NO access to spells. I point out options and then you complain that the options you have are not as good as just not running them. So your original complaint must not be a big issue if you can skip them all together. Are you reading your complaints? Lion have minor weaknesses (by your own complaints), which are all but eliminated with cards like these and playing to their strengths. The rest of us have to run those poor options.

I already said Ujiaki is a great card and designed to a different power level than most of the rest of like characters. If you pull off the combo you will probably win, I don't mind losing that is not the issue. Again each clan has strengths and weaknesses, but one clan seems to get their weaknesses all but eliminated before other clans are even viable.

I already read the posts and your main point is Lion have a answer to everything, I'll not try to convince you the opposite, just do this, all the cards you are listing are splashable, so make a Lion splash and see if is that good, indeed it will be easier to you using them, as scorpion can draw cards easily than Lion..

I think you don't look well at test of courage. It requires a fate AND you need to bid less. So if you are worried about it, is pretty easy, just bid 1 always and your opponent will have a dead card in hand.

You know why Ageless Crone is a Lion card and not a Scorpion? Because the main strategy of Lion is to bid low, and doing this you let your opponents have a good card advantage every match, specially against scorpion that drains honor.. So ageless crone helps to mitigate the effects of clans like scorpion playing dozens of cards while Lion must bid low to keep cards like obstinate recruit and honorable historian.. If you think she is better than kachiko, again, splash Lion she is very cheap just 1 bamboo..

You semm like some players that want to run every powerfull card and when the deck don't work starts complaining and hating the other clans. As a Lion clan I have to abdicate some of our best cards like sashimono or stand your ground to be competitive. But I see some Scorpions wanting to play I can swim and Kachiko and play a dishonor theme all at the same time.. and blames the game designers, the seeker choices, etc..

You have great cards, maybe the best stronghold and province, and greats holdings, you can see your opponent hand free playing a 1 cost courtier, but all you can see is how the other clans are getting good cards and yours don't, kachiko is great, and there's still 2 packs to be revealed, be patient.

43 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Crone puts the nail in the coffin after the Lion plays FGG, as well as making the courtier conflict package easier to run.

When the Lion drop FGG after activating Ujaki and/or Charge, and get 3-5 free fate (which could easily be upwards of 10+ fate in character value) it already tilts the game so far into the Lion's favor that it's pretty difficult to come back from that. One of the few options is to play out your characters and try to regain some sort of board presence to at least hope to stop Lion from just rolling over you, and, maybe find a clever way to mount a counter attack. The problem that Crone creates is that while it raises the cost for everyone to play events, she is going to be in play when Lion have a distinct fate advantage and essentially will prevent their opponent from playing events because they used up their fate to try and build up their board. Lion won't care because they will have fate in the bank and can afford the extra cost.

The end result is Crone prevents your opponent from playing events, just like guest, only cheaper.

So yeah you can splash Crone, but, what else do other clans pick up from Lion? Phoenix, scorpion and to some extent Crane and Dragon are taken out of the mix as they are slim on bushi to make FGG worthwhile. So really you have Unicorn and Crab that are possible homes for the Crone splash. Unicorn really can't afford the space because they are lacking so much in the dynasty, it's difficult to justify trading anything from the existing Lion splash Unicorn use. Crab could probably pull it off, but, I don't know if the return is worth it as you're only banking on the FGG play as Crab still lack enough courtiers to make use of the trait So while Crone can be played in other decks, she is not nearly as good out of them as she is in Lion, to the point that she is essentially a Lion exclusive..........which I think is part of the frustration people are starting to have with Lion.

There could also be a bit of lore disconnect as the Lion who are known for their military prowess currently have 3 of the best courtiers in the game. I have to admit that seems a little odd to me.

Ok the picture you painted can became real, but to be really OP you need to take ujiaki into account, and his ability is OP when you have the favor, not the ageless crone by itself, and for sure will not happen so many times.

All these pictures figure Lion having many fate and the opponent is aways poor. Let into consideration Lion running Ujiaki, crone and other cards from the new packs is a far more expensive deck than Lion's core set. Also remember Lion usually take 1 fate less each turn to play small guys, for this the economy cards like charge are so important. I am not so rich every game, many times I am behind my foe, the seekers getting fate, embrace the void, etc..

Many times you can just spend 1 fate and play a counter on FGG, or policy debate to get the FGG from your opponents hand. Making a incredible scenario when Lion is rich because used Charge or Ujiaki, and the opponent have no fate, and you have FGG in hand makes ageless crone seems a lot better than she usually is.