4 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

Of course you can ignore the Cutlass, but then you have the choice of either eating 1-2 dmg per turn (bomblet + primary weapon or UR), or spending your actions dancing on the table to avoid bomblets,messing up your approach and defense.

He's not entirely wrong, though, and that's one of the many reasons why Unguided Rockets is garbage.

Stick Harpoon Missiles on and see if your opponent is so ready to ignore the Cutlass.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

He's not entirely wrong, though, and that's one of the many reasons why Unguided Rockets is garbage.

Stick Harpoon Missiles on and see if your opponent is so ready to ignore the Cutlass.

Pal, I'm not saying anyone is wrong. We just have a different opinion on the same thing. But okay, let's discard UR altogether, that at least makes the Cutlass cheaper. And when the Cutlass gets to finally shoot, it can at least do it against an already tokenless opponent, so a Cutlass have a better chance of hitting (without rerolls) than Redline, methinks.

Not sold on the Harpoon, low PS missile/torpedo boats never seem to work properly without sufficient action economy. Using Poons would make LRC mandatory, but that brings back the old issue of the Punisher melting under fire like a snowman in the Sahara.

16 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

Of course you can ignore the Cutlass, but then you have the choice of either eating 1-2 dmg per turn (bomblet + primary weapon or UR), or spending your actions dancing on the table to avoid bomblets,messing up your approach and defense.

No approaches won't be messed up and folks won't be eating damage from bombs they can go around. Again you make the assumption in your plan that the other player is not playing to win. It won't work with the cutlass unless it is a huge ship. Now it is possible to saturate the table, but that would require standard to up the point limit to 150 points. Although 3 bomblets could be interesting I am not sure it would be able to throw enough damage out. Then again there is also the need to grab more scurrgs. Try it on vassal and see how it works.

Can someone try these Punisher lists for real, with other ships too and tell us how they went?

Seems to me a lot of people are really trying to remove the guessing part of this game by using the highest pilot skill possible for bombs but in reality, if you are actually good at predicting flight patterns and potential options, you could:

1. Influence the enemy ships final position due to bombs being launched or dropped.
2. Deal damage to ships that fail to escape the range 1 bubble
3. Could force enemy ships to lose arcs or sacrifice actions to avoid bomb damage
4. Actually brings prediction back into the game, as opposed to "I have multiple actions and higher PS to you so good luck with that."

Additionally, if a PS2 Punisher launched a bomblet at Soontir and put it in front of him, even if Soontir attempted Range 1 on the Punisher there is still a chance that the bomb could clip him, even after all his actions are spent. Additionally, Soontir would have to roughly guess where that bomb is going and even if there will be a bomb launched.

Isn't that more entertaining/enjoyable that a PS10, full knowledge of board state, 100% confirmed damage dealer and if built correctly can make your opponent pack away his green dice?

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The benefit of Trajectory Simulator is that if you slow-roll a 1 Forward the bomb covers your R1 hole of your missile shots.

Now that's a nice idea. You've still got the problem of needing to acquire a lock to fire those missiles in the first place (hence Long Range Scanners) but it gets around the easy answer of trying to get into range 1.

The trouble is, the Punisher is still an overpriced hunk of 2 Attack and 1 Agility that is forced to spend even more points just to make up for those failings. Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame, Minefield Mapper, Bomblet Generator....they all failed to make the Punisher even relevant, let alone good, so I'm not seeing Trajectory Simulator being anything other than another gimmick for it.

12 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

The trouble is, the Punisher is still an overpriced hunk of 2 Attack and 1 Agility that is forced to spend even more points just to make up for those failings. Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame, Minefield Mapper, Bomblet Generator....they all failed to make the Punisher even relevant, let alone good, so I'm not seeing Trajectory Simulator being anything other than another gimmick for it.

You just listed three awful things to put on a TIE Punisher (Unguided Rockets and Minefield Mapper and both DREADFUL), and Bomblet Generator doesn't exactly sing on the ship either.

Adding bad things to a bad ship won't help. Adding good things may help, though.

18 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Now that's a nice idea. You've still got the problem of needing to acquire a lock to fire those missiles in the first place (hence Long Range Scanners) but it gets around the easy answer of trying to get into range 1.

Precisely. I think you get something a lot like the successful Deathfire builds, but a bit tougher.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You just listed three awful things to put on a TIE Punisher (Unguided Rockets and Minefield Mapper and both DREADFUL), and Bomblet Generator doesn't exactly sing on the ship either.

Adding bad things to a bad ship won't help. Adding good things may help, though.

What they all share, though, is that when they came out folk wondered if this would be the card to finally help the Punisher out, and it never has been. I think the Punisher chassis is too highly priced to be salvaged, especially when the main feature is a swathe of munitions slots that require more points to be thrown into it. There's nothing the Punisher does that a Bomber doesn't do more efficiently, and I remain unconvinced that hucking bombs forward is going to change that.

31 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

There's nothing the Punisher does that a Bomber doesn't do more efficiently, and I remain unconvinced that hucking bombs forward is going to change that.

Which is why if anything does work, I'd suspect it'll be Deathrain/Trajectory Simulator/Bomblet Generator, because that is capability the bomber cannot duplicate - lacking both the systems and second bomb upgrade slot, and if you're not bothered about missiles then lightweight frame is a much more acceptable buy.

38 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

What they all share, though, is that when they came out folk wondered if this would be the card to finally help the Punisher out, and it never has been. I think the Punisher chassis is too highly priced to be salvaged, especially when the main feature is a swathe of munitions slots that require more points to be thrown into it. There's nothing the Punisher does that a Bomber doesn't do more efficiently, and I remain unconvinced that hucking bombs forward is going to change that.

Yeah, but that's folk. Don't be listening to folk, because folk are terribad.

I would agree that the Cutlass Punisher I propose is in a head-to-head against Deathfire that I'm not sure it wins (but it might). But that you've got a Punisher into the position where it might be as good as the best TIE Bomber pilot... that's a huge step forward for the ship.

10 hours ago, Astech said:

Well, in Epic play 5 Punishers with these and Proton bombs could be a thing.

Nym just got a Genius replacement, since it's going to function in pretty much the same way - drop a bomb on top of someone, and then bump them and ignore the bomb's effects.

That is not going to work very well, because does not have advanced sensors for that anymore IF he takes the TS. Guess the perfect position for a bumb ... well GZ if you did that and GZ if your opponent's maneuver landed him in r2-3 directly in front of your old position, while knowing that a bomb will land there.

2 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

Additionally, Soontir would have to roughly guess where that bomb is going and even if there will be a bomb launched.

That bomb lands a 6 straight away from that punishers last turn's position. It is a very telegraphed move, because you can not combine it with advanced sensors. In this regard, you are absolutely right, low PS is preferable, except when you bring coordinate to adjust the ship's position before it reveals it's maneuver.

Now what really is great is death reigns ability to barrel roll after the bomb launch and adjust to from 5-straight to 1-straight. That kind of changes forces Soontir to either gamble with his maneuver or straight out not attack frontal. Death Reign covers a 6 small ship wide corridor in front of him, from R3 to R1, because his bombs can potentially cover this whole area. Not something Soontir wants to gamble on.

I'm still waiting for someone to put Minefield Mapper on a Punisher and see how it goes.

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I haven't tried it but I certainly will:

• Cutlass Squadron - Trajectory Simulator, Thermal Detonators, Harpoon Missiles, Extra Munitions, Long-Range Scanners (31pts)

The benefit of Trajectory Simulator is that if you slow-roll a 1 Forward the bomb covers your R1 hole of your missile shots. I've not worked out the geometry of it yet, but I think it's possible you can fire your first Harpoon at long range than do a 1 fwd, still be at r3 to reacquire your TL, then cover your R1 bubble with the Thermal.

I would consider that as the 3rd ship in a Vader/QD alpha list, for instance. The opponent has to dedicate a lot of fire to bringing down the Punisher before it causes havoc, and that's all shots which aren't taking out your main guys.

Also: anybody putting Unguided Rockets on anything needs their heads examined.

It should be JUST possible to fire at R3, move 1 forward and still get a lock to fire again, but it would be pretty unlikely - there's only half a base's grace at the outside adge or range 3 where you can do it, assuming a head on joust, before your 1 forward puts you at range 2 - and your enemy could easily get into r1 if you do. You can protect your R1 with the bomb, but they're probably better off there than getting Harpooned again.

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm still waiting for someone to put Minefield Mapper on a Punisher and see how it goes.

We have a guy at our FLGS that took 3 Cluster Mine Punishers to Nationals. No minefield mapper, but he actually won a game.

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

I'm still waiting for someone to put Minefield Mapper on a Punisher and see how it goes.

I have done it on 2 TIE Punishers, both with 2 Cluster Mines. Just to funnel the enemy into a determined path. Maybe force them into a single file to limit the amount of damage they enemy is able to send out the first round of shooting.

I'm thinking that Minefield Mapper could be good for lists that were like Ghost and Biggs that just went back and forth along one board edge. Stick some Cluster mines on their side and they will actually have to move around the middle!

39 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm still waiting for someone to put Minefield Mapper on a Punisher and see how it goes.

They did. It was awful. Because TIE Punishers are awful and Minefield Mapper is awful.

58 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It should be JUST possible to fire at R3, move 1 forward and still get a lock to fire again, but it would be pretty unlikely - there's only half a base's grace at the outside adge or range 3 where you can do it, assuming a head on joust, before your 1 forward puts you at range 2 - and your enemy could easily get into r1 if you do. You can protect your R1 with the bomb, but they're probably better off there than getting Harpooned again.

Assuming you do a decent approach and up at first firing turn half a base in at R3, so 7b away from your target. You move first. You move 1 forward, and end up exactly at R3. Half a base is plenty of space, though it would be much easier with Deathrain who can literally slow roll and thus do a half a base barrel rolls to the back.

Though either way it is unlikely that someone approaches you head on, because those bombs are gonna hurt their turn after so harshly. You bomb does not only protect your R1 when you slowroll in, it does as well cover R2 in front of you. ANd saying at R3 is not possible either, because the enemy ship has to move forward (usually at least).

11 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

But loses Advanced sensors mobility, which is nice, and while these bombs cover a large area, I think they are significantly harder to aim than the previous incarnation.

My exact reaction. Not sure people are going to trade advanced sensor for that. Actually, im sure they wont

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'm still waiting for someone to put Minefield Mapper on a Punisher and see how it goes.

They flew three of them with LWF, EM and two Clusters apiece. It was bad (but loads of fun to watch setup, if you deploy in a corner you die).

12 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Almost positive it’s a no, but there is some weird timing that may allow it.

You can always EI, launch the proton, then EI the cluster. Pretty expensive deathrain though.

Hm, since "launching" isn't dropping, would that actually circumvent the "drop 1 bomb per round" rule?

My gut RAW interpretation says yes and RAI interpretation says no, but my RAI also says that Deathrain should still be allowed to Barrel Roll even though RAW says no. If only there were some kind of FAQ to clear these things up

12 hours ago, Storgar said:

Bomblet generator is unique so only 1 ship can have it.

Is it? It's got no dot next to its name, and the article shows two bombers lobbing stuff simultaneously...

To me, it looks more like @Hannes Solo 's idea is right on the money.

9 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

Is it? It's got no dot next to its name, and the article shows two bombers lobbing stuff simultaneously...

To me, it looks more like @Hannes Solo 's idea is right on the money.

http://xwing-miniatures.wikia.com/wiki/Bomblet_Generator?file=Swx65-bomblet-generator.png