47 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

\

Yeah...I'm just being "That Guy" right here.

While I, as a long-time comics fan, readily accept the "protecting my loved ones" trope regarding secret identities and personal attachments, it still strikes me as a bit odd when I think about it (a bit too much, maybe). Years ago, fleshing out my own personal super-hero "universe," I had a Superboy-type character whose secret identity was revealed beyond repair. His response was to publicly advise his enemies not to try striking at him through his loved ones, because it would be a really bad idea to make an incredibly powerful teenager that angry at them.

To be fair here, while this HAS happened it has not happened in all renditions of batman. A good example is the justice League cartoon where we know Bruce and Diana had a thing but he actively avoided a serious relationship. Even the person he marries isn't some commoner that can't handle themselves it's catwoman who has shown time and again she can handle herself and all of his sons are almost as good as he is, in some areas they are better then he is, they already knew the risk and were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and in many cases he didn't go looking to form those attachments he avoided them as long as he could, but he formed them none the less because he is human. Still the point stands that having attachments and loved ones increases the risk of corruption and crimes of passion from super powered beings that the Jedi council wants to avoid as best they can if they have no restrictions on it at all they risk at least a few of their members being susceptible to both crimes of passion and to Blackmail and their members have a responsibility to the galaxy to avoid letting that happen. Also they can't just NOT train them because then they risk super powered beings figuring out how to use their powers on their own without any discipline what so ever and without having trained people able to stop them should they go over the deep end. It is kind of a weird thing where you have a galaxy that for 1000 years had thousands of super powered beings running around and only 2 in the whole galaxy were villains all the rest were paragons of Justice all because they learned to be compassionate and to be selfless from a super young age and where no one had the risk of having a crime of passion or being black mailed with the death of a loved one all because they avoided having loved ones that could enrage them to commit crimes of passion or that people could use to black mail them.

In the end it is the most efficient super hero training academy to ever exist standing for 1000 years training hundreds of thousands of students of which 2 went bad in that entire stretch of time (technically like 4 because of the clone wars but still) because of an overly protective, but effective, code.


Edit: to be further fair to the jedi order it isn't like Yoda has shown no emotion he actively hurts at the loss of the younglings and his fellow masters, but he doesnt let that cloud his judgement. Obi-wan loses Quigon who is his master, and Loses Anakin which is his apprentice even Anakin loses Ahsoka who is his apprentice. In fact the Jedi order considers letting go of your master and letting go of your student as a great test for both as it is an attachment that is usually formed and it is something both will have to deal with. In essence it tries to minimize the number of attachments you form while ALSO teaching you healthy ways to handle such things in the means of master student bonding.

53 minutes ago, Vergence said:

The darkside gets married and attached. The selfless lightside hits it and quits it

Considering Ki-Adi-Mundi's... unique... situation, you're not entirely wrong.

10 minutes ago, Nivrap said:

Considering Ki-Adi-Mundi's... unique... situation, you're not entirely wrong.

Its good to be Cerean. Jedi Code 4 Lyfe Brah.

Listens to some Jedi Code rap in his air speeder.

20 minutes ago, Vergence said:

Its good to be Cerean. Jedi Code 4 Lyfe Brah.

Listens to some Jedi Code rap in his air speeder.

Do you think Jedi listen to Jedi Rocks during long hyperspace trips?

On emotion: There's this thing called Emotional Intelligence . Basically, okay, we as humans are programmed to feel emotions. So, find yourself in a situation where you're feeling an emotion, and ask yourself: Is this emotion appropriate to feel in this situation? If so, what action does that emotion require of me in this situation? Is that action appropriate to this situation? Yeah, if someone calls you a foul filthing so-and-so, being angry at them is a perfectly normal and acceptable emotional response. Being angry at them may want you to hit them in response. Is that an appropriate reaction to being insulted? Under most circumstances, probably not.

That's all "There is no emotion, there is peace" is really saying. Measure your emotional responses to the situations in which you find yourselves. It's not saying the Jedi should strive for a Vulcan-like detachment from their emotions and embrace of total logic (because, lets face it, the Force is in no way logical), but rather that they should have appropriate reactions to their surroundings, and be aware of what they're feeling and why they are acting the way they are.

On attachments: Really just an expansion of the above. Having spouses and children and parents and siblings creates stronger emotional responses that are more difficult to be intelligent about. Avoid those situations that create emotions that can't easily have their responses measured. HOWEVER, lets examine this in a bit more detail. Now, I'm citing from the Revenge of the Sith novelization for this point, but here goes. Yoda, in his duel with Palpatine, realized that the Jedi just did not have what it took to destroy the Sith. The Sith had spent a thousand years learning to fight a new war, while the Jedi had spent those same thousand years retraining to fight the last war. Yoda and Obi-Wan really had no shot against Palpatine and Vader, because this wasn't a war that could be won with lightsabers. So, when Obi-Wan offered to take Luke, and train him as Anakin should have been trained in the "proper" Jedi way, from infancy, Yoda vetoed it, saying that when Luke was ready, the Force would bring him to his teachers. Here endeth the novelization, but the point remains: Obi-Wan and Yoda (Obi-Wan especially) knew the whole time exactly where Luke was, but made no move to start training him until he was about twenty years old. Fast forward to Return of the Jedi, and how does Luke prevail in that fight? Yes, he curb-stomps Vader by tapping into the Dark Side, but that was no victory. Yes, he refused to turn to the Dark Side and threw away his lightsaber, standing tall before the Emperor, but that was no victory, either. . . best case, Luke, Vader, and the Emperor are all atomized when the Death Star blows, worst case, the Emperor and his forces crush Luke and the Rebels and Palpatine has Vader's hand replaced again. His victory only came when he called out to his father to help him, reaching that small part of Anakin that was still inside Darth Vader. Because Luke loved his father, even though he'd never really known him, and Anakin loved his son. And Anakin, in that moment, decided that enough was enough, that the life of his son was more important than anything else, and gave Darth Sidious a crash course in Star Wars reactor technology. The very attachments Yoda and Obi-Wan's Jedi Order forbade gave Luke the impetus to try and free his father, and gave his father the strength to turn from the Dark Side once and for all, and fulfill his destiny of destroying the Sith by killing the Emperor and dying in the process. Thus, the Prequel-Era Jedi are flawed in at least one respect.

On pinnacles: When you talk about the "pinnacle" of the Jedi Order, you really do have to define "pinnacle." The Jedi had been a thousand years without a real challenge, so in way, they were at the height of their power and influence, and had a thousand years to perfect what they considered the ultimate ideal of a Jedi and attempt to instill that belief in their students, to elevate their teachings and techniques to forms of art. However, these teachings and techniques had received no serious, rigorous, real-world testing, so in another very real way, they were at their nadir. If you want to really boil it down to an oversimplistic analogy, you can look at it as the difference between a master of a highly stylized, ritualized, and artistically expressive martial art, versus someone who's learned everything they know about hand-to-hand combat in a life of constant back-ally brawls. The former has incredible grace, poise, discipline, physicality, and theoretically knows thousands of ways to hurt you but has never put any of them in practice, while the latter knows how to very efficiently put you down for the count.

2 hours ago, Vergence said:

The darkside gets married and attached. The selfless lightside hits it and quits it

True, true.

1 hour ago, ErikModi said:

On emotion: There's this thing called Emotional Intelligence ....

That's all "There is no emotion, there is peace" is really saying...

Indeed, it is not about not feeling or having emotions, but about not being dominated by them (especially against better knowledge). In my opinion the old version of the code makes that a bit clearer: "Emotion, yet Peace."

I will say this while I have been defending the Jedi as I 100% believe they had good reasoning in what they were trying to do I did personally find the worst part of Episode II to be the love story between Anakin and Padme, in fact it was so bad to me that Episode 2 is my least favorite movie by far, and to me the problem was easily solved, and not by completely removing the "forbidden" part of their love instead shifting it towards "frowned upon" or even keep it forbidden, but still the interactions needed to change. So for those that care the tunewalker "edit" to "semi-fix" episode 2's romance.

First the scene in which Padme is packing and Anakin and her are talking, when Anakin starts flirting with her instead of her saying "stop that you are making me uncomfortable" like he is some kind of creeper that she wants to get away from have her say nothing and just smile and continue to work, show her trying to suppress her own feelings in this case. Next when they get to Naboo don't have this back and forth thing where they kiss go 'shouldnt have done that' and then move into a bunch of dates any way. Start with the picnic move to the dinner and THEN have the moment when they are just staring out at the water and kiss DO NOT have padme pull away because she realizes she shouldn't have done so, instead have them receive a Holo call from Windu to give the happy news of the progress Kenobi is making. THIS is when reality should hit BOTH of them like a wave, Anakin is training to be a Jedi and wants to be considered one of the Jedi's best, Padme is a senator with a lot of responsibilities even if it WASNT looked down upon for a Jedi to have an attachment the amount of time either were going to get with one another would be minimal, they would BOTH decide to break it off to save them both a little heart ache (none of the Anakin pleading for Padme's attention) and they can both do what they have to for the galaxy. The rest of the movie pans out much the same way, when they get to the arena they both decide that it doesnt matter how frowned upon it is, or how little time they get to be together even these last few seconds are worth all the risk and all the pain and all the hardships that come with it and BOOM you have a consistent whirlwind Romance of star crossed lovers that ultimately end in tragedy. Also don't have Anakin Choke Padme... he doesnt need to be some power crazy fiend in the end having everything being motivated by his desire to save her after an episode II like I described would be perfect and even more tragic that in the end he loses her anyway despite his best effort and now doesnt have anything left, maybe a part of him blames kenobi and the jedi for Padme's death because they held him back and they were to scared of the dark side to really learn how to save her. I don't know on that part, but still having a consistent love story in II would have made it WAAAAAYYY better.

Funny thing about that is it's almost doable as the movie is, simply needs a couple small cuts and 1 different scene and it's better.

Yeah Episode II is just awful. That romance is terrible and it feels like someone is out of frame holding weapons on them and telling them to make the magic happen or they're dead.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah Episode II is just awful. That romance is terrible and it feels like someone is out of frame holding weapons on them and telling them to make the magic happen or they're dead.

Aw man, I can't just let you rag on my favorite movie in the Saga. Personally, while the fireplace scene is the one romance scene I'm not too huge on, I think the rest serve as important character-building moments and show how Anakin and Padme's ideologies from TPM have changed due to their experiences within the Jedi Order and Senate respectively. Beyond those contentious scenes (most of which I like), the rest of the movie is just plain awesome in my opinion. Detective Obi-Wan, seeing more of Coruscant, the clones, Geonosis, Dooku, combat-ready Yoda, I just love it all.

10 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well now you are getting into the debate of free will vs determinism, and that's such a loaded ball of trouble that I don't even feel like touching it with someone else's 10ft pole. If "It's all as the Force wills it", then the Force is a bipolar a$$hole who apparently likes toying with beings in an eternal argument with itself (light vs dark), and is willing to let bajillions die on a regular basis because of some internal morality debate with itself. And to me at least, that's just a terrible premise to try and tell a story in, as it removes ALL agency on the part of the players, and turns what most consider to be a somewhat neutral energy with some awareness, into this all powerful puppet master, that sways all actions to it's whims, good and bad.

Yes, that pretty much seems to be the force. It doesn't have to be that way, but from what little we have seen of the Jedi's religious teachings they seem to think of it in that way. At least from what I have seen of it and my own interpretations.

Chirrut gives his life over into the hands of the force, becoming its instrument to see the will of the force done. It lets him accomplish something great, something impossible. But he also dies. This is also in accordance to the will of the force. Or at least that's what Jedi tell themselves so that they don't give into the pain and grief from having people close to them dying.

@KungFuFerret

There is no dark side.
" It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together. "
The only darkness in the force, is the one we have within ourselves. The Dark side is what the force becomes when the darkness in ourselves twist the force to our dark desires.
So much for bipolar *****, the bipolar ***** are the guys like Anakin who choke their own wives to "protect" them.

At least that was the opinion of a few philosophers among the sith and jedi. IIRC Palpatine was among them. Yielding to the will of the force was for fools and the power of the darkside lies within yourself to make the force yield to your own will.

I will say I do think straight out banning attachments was dumb on the part of jedi order, not because there reasoning is wrong and that Jedi should avoid attachments to avoid potential threats of passion being a problem or black mail or interference with their duties, but more because as a Jedi Master I would want my Knights and students to feel they could come to me if they DID form an attachment. By having it be something the council highly suggests avoiding because of the risks it can bring, but not out right banning it the council leaves themselves open to be talked to for when it does happen rather than having what anakin does where he tries to hide it. Instead Anakin could have felt ok talking about what was going on without fear of being expelled and instead he would have simply been given better guidance.

Infact I say there is no light side, there is the Force. The dark side is a corruption, the darkness we carry within and that which we taint with it.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

@KungFuFerret

There is no dark side.
" It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together. "
The only darkness in the force, is the one we have within ourselves. The Dark side is what the force becomes when the darkness in ourselves twist the force to our dark desires.
So much for bipolar *****, the bipolar ***** are the guys like Anakin who choke their own wives to "protect" them.

At least that was the opinion of a few philosophers among the sith and jedi. IIRC Palpatine was among them. Yielding to the will of the force was for fools and the power of the darkside lies within yourself to make the force yield to your own will.

Except there's also that whole Living Force philosophy, and Chirrut Imwe's mantra of "All is as the Force Wills It" which implies it has a will of it's own. Even Ben makes the idea somewhat open to debate when he's explaining the Force to Luke. He describes it, and Luke says "You mean it controls your actions? " To which Ben says "Well, partially, but it also obeys your commands." Which implies, at least to me, that it's not just a mindless energy source people tap into. Between Chirrut's idea that things are as the Force wills it, aka a god wills it, and that statement of Ben's, it's not unreasonable to think the Force has some agency of it's own. And if so, then that means it has an agenda to some degree.

Now personally I don't think the Force is some single entity with bipolar nature, I was exaggerating a bit based on the bit I quoted from the other poster. My personal take on the Force, is that it is alive to some degree, but that both sides have a different agenda. Your classic god/devil conflict if you will. I personally find the idea of "it's just a mindless energy source I can use to do stuff" to be fairly boring, and lessens the opportunity for storytelling, so I opt for option 1. But I also don't think it's some grand puppet master. The person I was quoting was basically saying "well what if it all IS as the Force wanted things to happen?" which is that predetermination thing I mentioned. Which is it's own topic all together.

In reality, the "will of the force" usually translates to "This is what the writer wanted to happen with the plot at this point, so they used the handy Deus Ex Machina that is the Force to justify something weird happening to change the dynamic of the story" Like how Chirrut does his Walk of Death,and is protected until he flips the switch, and then apparently the Force decided "ok, thanks for the flipping that switch for me, you can die now." And removes the protection, Which implies the "The Force is a puppet master as$hole" theory, but is really just bad writing and directing.

Bottom line, the Force is what you need it to be in your setting. Debating the "facts" of it is a fools game, tilting at windmills, as it contradicts itself all the time based on who's doing the writing.

9 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

Chirrut gives his life over into the hands of the force, becoming its instrument to see the will of the force done. It lets him accomplish something great, something impossible. But he also dies. This is also in accordance to the will of the force. Or at least that's what Jedi tell themselves so that they don't give into the pain and grief from having people close to them dying.

Yeah but that scene in particular, is an example of my "The Force is an a$$hole" theory. It protects him from blaster fire until he's served his purpose, and then he immediately dies. And what was that amazing thing he did? He walked 30 feet or so and flipped a switch.....wow. Given that prior to that, we see him curbstomp a squad stormtroopers with a stick, while blind , and also shoot a fighter out of the air while blind , that walk across the sand is fairly anti-climactic, and also pretty callous on the part of the Force.

I think it would've been more dramatic, and rewarding, if instead, he holds out his hand from where they are pinned down, chanting his line, the core of his belief of a lifetime. And after several repetitions of the mantra, we see the switch flip, as he's able to actually tap into the Force. Have it be incredibly draining for him, as this isn't something he can easily do, and then have the rest of them go running off to die somewhere else in the story. I mean come on, they had one of the most charismatic, and talented martial arts/actors in the business today, and they give him ONE fight scene where he's able to show his stuff? They didn't let him hold the line with his friend Baz? They didn't let him go out like he got introduced? Stick twirling and smashing troops left and right? No, he takes a little stroll, flips a switch, and then gets gunned down. It was just lame in my opinion, and the way it was structured, with the very obvious "I'm putting my life in the Force's hands" angle, makes the Force look like a really callous thing. Again, we can debate if the Force has a will or not, but Chirrut definitely believed it, and the writers of R1 certainly scripted it like it did. But the result is it makes it look like a force that just plays with those it manipulates.

42 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except there's also that whole Living Force philosophy, and Chirrut Imwe's mantra of "All is as the Force Wills It" which implies it has a will of it's own.

What do you mean with expect? I just said that. The lightside user is following the will of the force. The darksider following their own will and subdue the force to their own will. Darksiders are about individuality, light siders give up parts of their individuality to follow the will of the combined life energy of the galaxy. Death becomes meaningless for people who follow the will of the force as death only leads to loss conscious, but rebirth of your life energy. And even the loss of conscious can be prevented when you become one with the force, but maintain your individuality (force ghosts). Meanwhile death has power over the darksiders who can not become one with the force, but need dominate the force to their will. Only their spectres can remain, their imprints they left on the force, but not themselves. Palpatine and other siths were obsessed with immortality for good reasons.

Chirrut death is without consequences for the force, he becomes just one with the force and his energy continues the cycle. There is no malicious intent, there is only the force and within the force death becomes meaningless. At least when you are on the good side with it. Now for darksiders there is a special kind of ****.

Within all this, there is still free will. A galaxy wide vaguely sentient life-energy-field certainly has no opinion about most stuff going on in your life anyway. The will of the force is not about what breakfast cereals to choose. And it does not force anyone to follow its well either, else darksiders would not be a thing.

34 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but that scene in particular, is an example of my "The Force is an a$$hole" theory. It protects him from blaster fire until he's served his purpose, and then he immediately dies.

Exactly. He served his purpose. His life had meaning up to that point and nothing he could have done past that point would have had meaning afterwards, so he becomes one with the force.
He would have died a few moments later anyway, because he chose to act without an escape plan in the first place and the death star was firing at the planet. ;-)

22 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

snip

You and I just need to agree to disagree on this topic I think.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

You and I just need to agree to disagree on this topic I think.

I don't see us reaching an argumentative end-point which would require an agreement to disagree.
But we could agree that you prefer the force in a different way than it has been portrait in canon and legends. You would not be the first, midichlorian are not a fan favorite either

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

I don't see us reaching an argumentative end-point which would require an agreement to disagree.
But we could agree that you prefer the force in a different way than it has been portrait in canon and legends. You would not be the first, midichlorian are not a fan favorite either

I'm not saying we're being argumentative, I'm just tired of debating fine details of something that is ultimately a personal preference of interpretation, after I had already said in a previous post that the bottom line is the Force is whatever you need it to be at your table. And since this is technically a topic derailing from the Jedi Code and whether or not Jedi can feel love, I'd rather not perpetuate further derailing.

11 hours ago, Nivrap said:

Aw man, I can't just let you rag on my favorite movie in the Saga. Personally, while the fireplace scene is the one romance scene I'm not too huge on, I think the rest serve as important character-building moments and show how Anakin and Padme's ideologies from TPM have changed due to their experiences within the Jedi Order and Senate respectively. Beyond those contentious scenes (most of which I like), the rest of the movie is just plain awesome in my opinion. Detective Obi-Wan, seeing more of Coruscant, the clones, Geonosis, Dooku, combat-ready Yoda, I just love it all.

Oh man this made me laugh. Thanks man and I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I'm glad you enjoy it so much, I'm envious.

So is it that the Jedi are not supposed to actually keep to this code? That seems to be what I am reading here is that the Jedi code reads kind of rigid but it's not supposed to be used like that? So in reality everyone expects that human jedi will fall in love or get angry, but not too angry, and will generally pay lip service to this code but no one really lives up to it?

4 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

So is it that the Jedi are not supposed to actually keep to this code?

I don't think anyone said that specifically.

4 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

That seems to be what I am reading here is that the Jedi code reads kind of rigid but it's not supposed to be used like that?

Eh, depends on which person's post you are referring to, as there are varying opinions. My personal opinion is that it's not that the Jedi can't/don't live up to their own Code, it's that us, the fans, are reading it WAY too rigidly and literally, especially when said rigid interpretation contradicts how we actually see the Jedi behave. Now I haven't seen every single bit of star wars stuff out there, so maybe they do actually say it somewhere, but I can't recall a single case, in any of the movies, the Rebels tv show, or Clone Wars tv show, where they actually SAY this code, and use it to either teach a lesson to a padawan, or to establish a proper course of action for someone. Now I stopped watching both shows midway, so maybe they did later, but even if they do mention it here or there, it's hardly an ever present, common thing that comes up over and over in the actual franchise . I know the fans bring it up all the time, but that's a different issue.

7 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

So in reality everyone expects that human jedi will fall in love or get angry, but not too angry, and will generally pay lip service to this code but no one really lives up to it?

Again, not everyone thinks that, based on the posts, and I don't think they just pay "lip service" as you call it to the Code. I think the lines of the Code are too vague to be interpreted literally. I mean, if you want to be entirely pedantic, then the line of "There is no emotion, there is only peace" is stating that emotions don't exist at all, and that all is peace. But nobody thinks that, they interpret it to mean "a jedi must purge themselves of all emotions to attain peace and oneness with the force". Or, the other interpretation , the one I subscribe to "Do not let emotion govern your actions. Be calm, passive, at peace, and think about what you are about to do. Make your decisions based on reason and understanding, and wisdom, and not a gut reaction fueled by your emotions. That route leads to regret and pain, for you and those around you."

Note how neither of those is actually what the Code says, verbatim. And just like how people dance around religious laws in the real world, some saying "It says what it says, and there is no wiggle room", while others say "yeah but I think *insert invisible person in the sky of your choice* is trying to say this. That this is what it means to us in the modern day" I mean, the entire industry of preachers works off this premise. If the words were so easy to understand and follow, they wouldn't need religious employees to "preach it to the masses" every sunday, to translate and explain it for them.

One interpretation is very literal and dogmatic, and is very strict and without flexibility or focus on reality. The other is more flexible and realistic, taking into consideration changing views on things, and a better understanding.

Though I do love the parallels this entire discussion brings up with real world religion. Several years ago, some person wrote something down, a handful of people gave it approval, and now, years later, people debate the authenticity of the statement at all (is it canon or not), and also debate the meaning of the texts themselves. With some people falling into a dogmatic, fundamentalist interpretation of the teachings, while others view it in a different, more flexible nature.

We're basically re-enacting religious debates over a fantasy genre game.

18 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

So is it that the Jedi are not supposed to actually keep to this code? That seems to be what I am reading here is that the Jedi code reads kind of rigid but it's not supposed to be used like that? So in reality everyone expects that human jedi will fall in love or get angry, but not too angry, and will generally pay lip service to this code but no one really lives up to it?

Kind of.
Or to quote Obi-Wan, "had you said the word, I would have left the jedi order", it's not like membership in the jedi order is mandatory. Furthermore Obi-Wan and Ahsoka both seemed to have been pretty aware of Anakin's relationship with Padme. They just looked elsewhere. That was not what they were supposed to do, but that is how the order seemed to be handling this kind of things for quite a while.

SEA and Ferret: Ok I see. Yeah I think from a storytelling and gaming perspective it's a lot easier to let the characters be human but to have them striving for an ideal. I think most people can understand that because it's what many people do in their lives and is a transcendent device. I like the view you guys have on this and I think I will adjust my portrayal of the Jedi to be more in alignment with this idea. It also makes me think that there is room for stories about Jedi zealots who are so disconnected from emotion that they essentially serve as antagonists to the more human characters, which I think is what the Prequels touched on a little bit but not really in an effective way.