I've been one of the forum MC30 evangelists for a pretty long time , even while it was widely-dismissed in W2 and even into 3 and 4. Somebody mentioned the other day that some ships are less-highly-regarded because there are no vocal advocates for them, so people don't try them because they don't hear about their successes. I do tend to think that pretty much everything in the game has a place, even if it is incredibly niche or difficult to pull off or whatever, and I'm casting about for new things to try. So I want to try and drag some of these oft-dismissed things out into the light to get them tried out!

So, I'm wondering: what are some widely-reviled upgrades, squadrons, archetypes, tactics, or whatever that you think are great or have used successfully? Things like #ClassicBen @Vergilius 's Liberties, @Darth Sanguis 's Pulsetap, and @Ginkapo 's Sensor Teams.

What is your thing , and what is everybody else missing about it?

In brief: sell us on why we should try it!

Back in ye olde Wave 2 team tournament, I created a list that I called IVV. It contained four cards that are usually considered bad, Grand Moff Tarkin, VSD-I, QLTs, and Slaved Turrets. I put the slaved turrets on the VSDs, using Tarkin to feed them ConFire tokens and using tactical experts to switch to confire commands when needed, which I called sniper vics. QLTs were used on all ships to help deter squads, as it was a blue v red only tournament. The sniper vics over performed early in the first game, almost one-shotting a CR90, but were quickly outmaneuvered. I think the commander was Rieekan the first game. Bad deployment killed them the second game vs Ackbar, and I wasn't able to play the third game. After the tourney, I continued using the sniper vics until wave 5/6 came out and brought the VSD-II back to relevance. I'll try to find the list.

Edit: Here's the list:

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Opening Salvo
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
= 184 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Tactical Expert ( 6 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Slaved Turrets ( 6 points)
= 90 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Tactical Expert ( 6 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Slaved Turrets ( 6 points)
= 90 total ship cost

3 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 33 points)

Here are a list of things that I use as often as I can that sometimes have a negative reputation, but which can be quite good. This is rebel biased, since that's 90% of what I play.

1. Liberty: As Ard mentioned, it had a bad rap when I decided to build a list around it. It still has its detractors the forum over, and several people have put together extremely solid fleets around them and performed very well in their respective areas. Solving the problems that the Liberty poses for the rest of your list is the real central question.

2. Combat Retrofits: The extended threat range of blue flak as well as the chance of taking a front shot some of the time, all of which can be rerolled with Toryn, is vastly underestimated. If you need to take overlapping fields of AS fire, this is one of the best units.

3. Scout Frigate: Since I've played mostly with Ard, I've long heard the Torp is good, Scout is bad line, and while some of the larger community has made the Scout work successfully, I still put it underplayed relative to its abilities. It really really changes how you fly an MC30 and what your overall game-plan is. TRC seems to be best here, but there's an argument for DTT to save a couple of points and keep your evades for defense. Can be flown somewhat like a CR90, but on a sturdier platform.

4. Pelta Assault: If you're not pushing squadrons from a Pelta, then picking up External Racks and looking anti-Squadron out of it with a fleet command upgrade becomes very interesting. Use it as a trailer to keep a clean space around your big ship, and projection experts shields away to other targets.

5. E-wings: I've trot them out from time to time in a goal to try to figure them out. Trying to find the right balance of sniping out Intel and pinning the remaining squads is key. The real key is trying to figure out how many snipe attacks you really need and at what dice values. But mostly, I've just done 4 E-wings because that's what I own and I wanted to play them all and just worked on overkilling Intel or other key squads. FC makes them all sing more. Also, I've found the red bomber dice strangely satisfying. The swingy double hits can really pose problems for how an opponent spends defense tokens.

Cards:

Cluster bombs/QLT: I really feel like I've found a good place for those, but since everyone thinks they're bad, I'm just going to keep them my own little secret. Here's the hint. If you can learn to think holistically, and not merely about one card, you'll figure it out.

53 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

So, I'm wondering: what are some widely-reviled upgrades, squadrons, archetypes, tactics, or whatever that you think are great or have used successfully?

What is your thing , and what is everybody else missing about it?

Just now, Drasnighta said:

I really need to get around to putting that on the table.

I've actually had a lot of fun using Leia on the Mon Karen. I can understand why others don't like her but with that ship i love her to death.

@Snipafist and his raiders.

Hammerhead Torpedo with flight controllers and EHB in a Leia fleet.

Morna is my girl. I have found her both invaluable and irreplacable as a cornerstone of a max squad wing in the current meta. She has mostly (but not always) replaced Maarek as being my go to Jendon target, and her ability to strike early and chase late combined with big hull and counter have carved out a niche for her in the meta of light framed alpha strikers, especially against the generic variety. (but don't underestimate her rerolls when you can activate her with Flight Controllers and fish for that acc either)

Madine TRC90s with Engine Techs.

Try them because it's the closest you will ever feel to being Ricky Bobby. I WANNA GO FAST!

[obligatory pulsetap worship post]

*I’m writing this on mobile, so please don’t judge this post on its various errors.*

Pulsetap 101

1.) Know what your fleet does, and know what other fleets do. Making a PT work often depends on giving your opponent nothing but bad choices, doing so often depends on adjusting deployment or aggression on what type of fleet you’re facing.

2.) Reliability is key. You cannot leave a PT up to chance. If an opportunity passes, especially when dealing with MSUs, it’s gone for good. Build your fleet around a sure thing, and leave as little to chance as possible. This means that the ship tapping has to guarantee that crit, and the ship hitting has to hit reliably, using high peak high risk shots are not as effective as medium but assured shots.

3.) Practice formations. As much as many people have brag about tearing apart formations, they are still a very effective way to trap an opponent. Learn what works well against certain deployments. When out deployed, as you often will be, find a formation that guards the weak points well.

I get get a lot of the, “if they’ve seen it before they can dodge it” responses when it comes to PTs. For some builds, that’s 100% true. A madine/mothma mc30 fleet will NEVER feel threatened by a pulsetap, in the cases where you face those, maneuverability is absolutely key. Don’t expect to get a tap off, play it like a standard ISD. However, in a mixed meta, on a blind match, I’ve found that having 2 ISDs on the mat can be enough to pressure an opponent into making a mistake. And it doesn’t take much. Part of the power of the PT is the mind game that comes with it. The moment your opponent sees it, they are trying to figure out how to split the components. How to avoid the hitter. How to exploit the lack of activations or squads. In doing so, it’s been my experience, the opponent makes a mistake. They over compensate and leave a small ship too far out, or they bunch up. Deploy at odd angles. All these little things can lead to a big advantage. Exploit the **** out of it.

Wave 6 has made PT fleets much easier to use. With QBTs DCs and tons of ships to use them, long range pulsetapping has become an absolute godsend to PT fleets. (Add some sensor teams for the occasional damage control teams or evade happy ships, and you’re having fun).

Hammerheads and Leia .

1 hour ago, Vergilius said:

Cluster bombs/QLT: I really feel like I've found a good place for those, but since everyone thinks they're bad, I'm just going to keep them my own little secret. Here's the hint. If you can learn to think holistically, and not merely about one card, you'll figure it out.

I have some Quad Laser Turrets thoughts/plans, but I may need to see the next wave before I put them into practice.

51 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

@Snipafist and his raiders.

Back in the wave 2 days I had street cred for defending the Raider, but nowadays that stance isn't as unusual as it was back then (thanks for thinking of me, though ). Especially since External Racks showed up in wave 6, people seem to be coming around on Raider-Is.

It's difficult to really put a value on "good/great" - there are a number of things I think are unfairly maligned and can be used effectively, even if they may not necessarily be easy to use or top-tier. To come back around to Raiders, they're great ships and I've used them successfully to win a few events. For some of the other things I'm about to list below, I may not feel as strongly, but the core sentiment of "people need to actually try them and stop reflexively hating on them" hold true:

• Raider-IIs with DCaps and Gunnery Teams hold some promise, but I feel like they're missing some final piece to really make them come together as a fully competitive option. They're fun with Jerry running at high speed on the flanks, where they can usually avoid the worst of it and then start lighting up lots of targets come round 3 or so once they've swept in on the sides or get in from the rear.
• VSD-Is are still a legitimate choice and I've had overall positive results running them in a few different configurations under different commanders. It's still important to keep them as cheap as you can and anticipate your meta, but they can get the job done.
• Morna Kee is 100% legit with Jendon (so agreeing with @BrobaFett ), although I haven't seen too many people hating on her overall so I'm not really sure it counts. Meta-dependent, I guess.
• TIE Phantoms don't hit the table often for me but every time they have they do better than I expect them to. It's really important to give them adequate Escort coverage to shepherd them into the late game where their weird combination of stats really starts to pay off. Whisper is particularly fun.
• I don't think Admiral Ozzel is widely seen as terrible, but there's definitely a vocal minority of haters out there. Ozzel is the man with an Imperial swarm fleet built around a backbone of Raiders and featuring an ISD or Glad(s) as its hammer(s). That kind of fleet lives and dies based on tempo, speed control, and positioning, and Ozzel provides what you need and at a very cheap price.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment, really. If anyone has any questions about those, let me know. I don't feel I'm as extreme here as some of the others who have already contributed. I don't personally have recent experience running a lot of the maligned Rebel options, but I can speak positively about Hammerheads, Commander Leia, LMC80s, Assault Frigates, CR90Bs, and Assault Peltas off-hand from facing them, which are options I hear slighted on occasion.

The Arquitens at lest where I play are very under rated even with my success with them I remember I went to a tournament at a store I don't often make it out to, and one of the guys I played saw my arquitens with slaved turrents and Darth Vader gave me a look like your new to this Darth Vader sucks, and slaved turrets are awful, over the course of the game after having both of my arquitens roll 6-7 damage consistently for two rounds he looked at me and said I always thought Darth Vader sucked and I looked at him and said "You don't know the power of the dark side!"

I don't think there's anything I do that would qualify as "unfairly maligned" over difficult verging on actually poor but I run anyway. I do know I'm not alone in either dual Liberty 's or dual ISDs, though I think I may be the only one on here driving at them as hard as I am. I also don't think Defenders are all that bad off in reputation, but I do love me some Sloane Defenders. That's not all that popular either.

20 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

• Morna Kee is 100% legit with Jendon (so agreeing with @BrobaFett ), although I haven't seen too many people hating on her overall so I'm not really sure it counts. Meta-dependent, I guess.

I think she doesn't get hated on cause no one actually expects anyone to run her haha. Kinda like Hera in that sense. People aren't in arms that she is terrible so much as she is so expensive people can't understand why you would pick her over 2 other squads.

Just now, BrobaFett said:

I think she doesn't get hated on cause no one actually expects anyone to run her haha. Kinda like Hera in that sense. People aren't in arms that she is terrible so much as she is so expensive people can't understand why you would pick her over 2 other squads.

That's fair. I usually don't consider running her unless I'm using Jendon, but if I'm using Jendon, she's usually part of the standard "Jendon menage a trois" with Maarek in as the third.

I definitely came around on the Assault Frigate recently. Fill the weapons team slot and it's fine. It's a good ship, Bront.

Valen, some decimators, dengar for flavor. Hope you got some intel in that squad ball. You are in for a bad time.

ARQs seem to be my thing. Of the few games I've gotten recently nobody ran them in a battery of three like I do.

4 hours ago, Vergilius said:

Cards:

Cluster bombs/QLT: I really feel like I've found a good place for those, but since everyone thinks they're bad, I'm just going to keep them my own little secret. Here's the hint. If you can learn to think holistically, and not merely about one card, you'll figure it out.

I know the Cluster Bomb secrets....came here just to say that.

For me its Crakens Trc90-s. He just works for me, never finished outside top3 with him(twice with 20+ person, once 15+). Love to circle arund ships in red range and sting them to death. Claimed ' bane of flotillas' title last tourney with et on Two of them despite its cost. But I knew I needed a reliable way to deal with them, and I didnt want to waste trc shots on these bugs.

My current things that I think are better than is generally assumed:

- Hera, E wings and first turn - wait for the squadron phase, Rogue in, snipe, then snipe again as first player and GTFO. Super good with toryn

- cluster bombs on MC30s

I ran Mc30s ever since they came out and knew they were incorrectly not known to be nearly overpowered. Oh wait. Here comes the defense brigade.