Ever since wave6 dropped I've always felt the Imps were lacking something in that 30 point area and they could really enjoy something meant for dealing some marginal damage on a tiny frame. Basically, it feels like Hammerheads would have been a great addition for imperials, and possibly that the Quasar would have filled a nice niche for Rebels.

Anyway, with wave7 coming out, Rebels still seem to need more medium base ships. And Imperials could use a 30-40 point combatant type ship. Gozantis really don't attack well unless you make a gimmick list out of it.

Oh, and Imperials really seem to need better/more variations of bombers without Rogue. The choices are basically Tie Bomber (fully bomber, but soaking up tons of squadron activation requirements) or Tie Defenders (which are poor bomber value for their cost).

ex. How would you make a 200pt Quasar fleet? Within the points, its so hard to find something that actually needs a Quasar and has enough damage to actually kill things. Having another combat ship would have been nice, but Raider is too expensive.

Hmm. Perhaps Red dice ruthless strat is the way to go + Gozanti BCC and Rogues.

I like the fact that both sides are asymmetrical, and not all ships have their "enemy" equivalent...

The Empire doesn't have many ships around that size, that's why they had to make up the Imperial Raider in the first place.

Oh I do too. But it'd still be nice to have something in that size range meant for combat.

Just now, melminiatures said:

The Empire doesn't have many ships around that size, that's why they had to make up the Imperial Raider in the first place.

Maybe we will get the Corvus...

Well the red gozanti is 28 points, with quite limited firepower even compared to the torp hammer head.

So how do you fit something in points between the red goz and the raider that isnt totally useless on one hand but doesnt make the red goz stupidly overpriced on the other?

For rebels its a bit simpler to see how they fit. The combat gr75 is only 24 points which is a pretty big gap to the hammertorp at 36.

23 minutes ago, Ophion said:

So how do you fit something in points between the red goz and the raider that isnt totally useless on one hand but doesnt make the red goz stupidly overpriced on the other?

This. ?

I mean, realistically for points and role comparison, the Imp hammerhead IS the Raider. The Raider and CR90 occupy vastly different roles despite points cost, but the Raider and HH both want to get in close and fire off black dice.

Really, if you want "identical" factions (as much as we can pretend nebs and arqs occupy identical roles) then you need an Imp CR90.... Which you kinda have with Raider-iis and dcaps. Kinda. But I personally don't think it's needed, I like the faction differences. Imps focus more on CHUB, Rebels are more kitey.

As for bombers vs non bombers that's largely game design more than anything I think.

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I mean, realistically for points and role comparison, the Imp hammerhead IS the Raider. The Raider and CR90 occupy vastly different roles despite points cost, but the Raider and HH both want to get in close and fire off black dice.

Really, if you want "identical" factions (as much as we can pretend nebs and arqs occupy identical roles) then you need an Imp CR90.... Which you kinda have with Raider-iis and dcaps. Kinda. But I personally don't think it's needed, I like the faction differences. Imps focus more on CHUB, Rebels are more kitey.

As for bombers vs non bombers that's largely game design more than anything I think.

this

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I mean, realistically for points and role comparison, the Imp hammerhead IS the Raider. The Raider and CR90 occupy vastly different roles despite points cost, but the Raider and HH both want to get in close and fire off black dice.

Really, if you want "identical" factions (as much as we can pretend nebs and arqs occupy identical roles) then you need an Imp CR90.... Which you kinda have with Raider-iis and dcaps. Kinda. But I personally don't think it's needed, I like the faction differences. Imps focus more on CHUB, Rebels are more kitey.

As for bombers vs non bombers that's largely game design more than anything I think.

this

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I mean, realistically for points and role comparison, the Imp hammerhead IS the Raider. The Raider and CR90 occupy vastly different roles despite points cost, but the Raider and HH both want to get in close and fire off black dice.

Really, if you want "identical" factions (as much as we can pretend nebs and arqs occupy identical roles) then you need an Imp CR90.... Which you kinda have with Raider-iis and dcaps. Kinda. But I personally don't think it's needed, I like the faction differences. Imps focus more on CHUB, Rebels are more kitey.

As for bombers vs non bombers that's largely game design more than anything I think.

I see it more as the Empire needs a small cheap ship that can still fit in with the fleet. At least in my area no Rebel player uses any large ships, and they have even stopped always using Galent Haven, to go for the small ship horde as it is felt that point per damage you get much more with them. Where as on the Empire side the general feeling is that they are stuck taking the ISD as most of the small ships are either to expensive to try and match numbers and/or to vulnerable, but either way they could use a cheap unit.

19 minutes ago, CDAT said:

I see it more as the Empire needs a small cheap ship that can still fit in with the fleet. At least in my area no Rebel player uses any large ships, and they have even stopped always using Galent Haven, to go for the small ship horde as it is felt that point per damage you get much more with them. Where as on the Empire side the general feeling is that they are stuck taking the ISD as most of the small ships are either to expensive to try and match numbers and/or to vulnerable, but either way they could use a cheap unit.

MC80 Rebel lists, and Quasar Imperial lists are very common at many Armada tables.

It sounds like you have a local meta that is anomalous. The issue may not be with the ships but with the meta. This could be your chance to break out and show your local players some cool stuff!

Don't you know? Empire's the medium-heavy ship faction. As a rule every ship has to be more expensive than the rebel equivalent, to preserve the many-vs-few dynamic of the Galactic Civil War. If you're unhappy about being out-activated all the time, play better with your bigger ships brap brap brap brap.... fighters should be your cheap assets brap brap brap brap...

If FFG does throw the Empire a bone with a cheap, small attack ship there's going to be some serious flaw with it that everyone will gripe about and will probably doom the ship competitively. In fact, the Arquitens was probably the best shot for a low-cost Imperial attack ship, and look how it ended up.

Tarkin novel apparently mentions carrack light cruisers.

1 hour ago, CDAT said:

I see it more as the Empire needs a small cheap ship that can still fit in with the fleet. At least in my area no Rebel player uses any large ships, and they have even stopped always using Galent Haven, to go for the small ship horde as it is felt that point per damage you get much more with them. Where as on the Empire side the general feeling is that they are stuck taking the ISD as most of the small ships are either to expensive to try and match numbers and/or to vulnerable, but either way they could use a cheap unit.

Raiders? Paging @Snipafist ....

33 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Raiders? Paging @Snipafist ....

I don't know what else I can say at this point.

I will admit that Raiders aren't as easy to plug into a fleet as CR90As are for Rebels, but they're at a similar price point. Hammerheads are definitely cheaper but they're not the kind of thing you can plug into any fleet randomly, so in that regard they're similar to Raiders.

I wouldn't be opposed to the Empire getting some kind of light combat support ship but it's a dangerous proposition as it would need to have a clear role and not obsolete Raiders or Arquitens. For the moment, your best option is going for Assault Carrier Gozantis, which aren't half-bad at flinging red dice (concentrate fire = 2 red) for 28 points. Not amazing, mind you, but not half-bad. You definitely need a heavy lifter for your serious work but that's true of Hammerheads too.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe imps shouldn't get an equivalent, I can't see a realistic reason they would need a small ship that's quality is quantity. Just from a game play standpoint, could make the game a little too samey. Having non symmetrical factions is a nice thing. Honestly I don't think a HH style ship would jive in most imperial players fleets.

Need to add Decimator flotillas...problem solved.

I feel like the Empire has the ships it needs as others have been saying the hammerhead for the Empire is the raider they cost 8 points more but gain a better armament against ships and squdrons. They do lose a hull, but have 3 more total shilds, they are pretty survivable at long range with two evades and a brace, and even at close range if accuracys are not rolled that brace is going to be more helpful than 1 extra hull, it's probably not a place you want your raider or hammerhead to be in but if I had to place bets on who whold survive a large close range volly a full health raider or a full health hammerhead I would put my money on the raider because of the brace.

Commenting on the cr-90 the Arquitens fills a similar roll for 10 more points and is more durable with more hull and one more shild than the cr-90 and a higher engineer value too, and has about the same firepower as a cr-90, the difference is that with a con fire the cr-90 will through 2 red out front and 2 out the side where the Arquitens will give you all 4 at once and the feels very Empire to me.

1 hour ago, SnowWulf said:

Need to add Decimator flotillas...problem solved.

Actually, that WAS the small ship for mid-league officers.

Sadly, Decimators chew into the squadron point count, and I've not really found a place where I want more than say 2 Decis in a serious list.

Snips article is great, makes me feel though that the hammerhead is more straightforward and disposable than the Raider is. You can get burst firepower out of the raider but Hammerheads are nice cheap flying guns that keep shooting from range until they die... And have titles to support this role.

For long range attacks empire only has the arq and thier bigger destroyers to turn to. While I've never tried using GZs in the attack role others suggested, I think you can get better use out of them in Thier support role than pressing them into the attack role.

Consider; HHs and Cr90s start base 2 red's vs the 1 on the GZ. The GZ has to bank fire commands for decent hitting power with almost no enhancements (maybe Intel officers?), Whereas every other ship can augment fire in some way and push thier attack power up to 3-4 dice.

A Decimator flotilla really would be kinda cool.

Honestly, I just use HHs with ER. Meant for dumping 6 or so dice on something. Yknow, like one time use cameras.

A Decimator Flotilla could work like the PT boats of WW2. Fluff says they were used as patrol ships and as fleet pickets. Perhaps they could be fielded as individual ships and count as fighters or as Flotillas in which case they become a minor cap ship, and would gain a couple of upgrade card slots and maybe a little more punch against cap ships.