A situation came up in a tournament last Saturday that had a couple of people scratching their heads.

• Jostero had the Harpooned! condition and was destroyed by an enemy attack triggering the Harpooned! condition. The condition damaged one of the enemy ships which would normally give Jostero the opportunity to attack, thus presenting the question if Jostero would get an attack even though he was destroyed.
  • I ruled that Jostero being destroyed was the trigger for the Harpooned! condition so by the time he would have an opportunity to attack, he was already dead and could not take advantage of that opportunity.

This presents a couple of other possibilities that are similar but the timing is different enough they could be ruled differently

• Jostero has the Harpooned! condition and is hit by an attack with uncancelled kaboom results, which deals enough damage to kill Jostero. Harpooned! is triggered and damages an enemy in Jostero's arc presenting him with an attack opportunity.
  • I think the condition is triggered damaging the other ship before Jostero is destroyed giving him an opportunity to attack before he is removed from the table.

• A ship within range 1 of Jostero has the Harpooned! condition and that condition is triggered dealing the last point of damage to Jostero and damaging an enemy ship presenting Jostero with an attack.
  • I think Jostero is destroyed at the same time that the other ship is damaged so whether or not he would get an attack would depend on whether or not he has initiative.

I thought I would bring the questions up here and see what other people think about the attack timing possibilities.

simultaneous effects rule. jostero should get his shot in all cases except where harpooned! is triggered by jostero's death in the 1st place

This is a situation where fastidious reading of the FAQ and timing chart is required. Additionally it has nothing to do with simultaneous fire.

As per the question and answer on page 24 of the FAQ states:

Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?

A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the “Deal Damage” step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship’s pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

From this we can take it that when reading the timing chart being "destroyed" happens in step 7 as soon as you have more damage than hull. Destroyed ships are not removed from the board until step 10 of the timing chart.

The "harpooned" condition will trigger in step 7 when Jostero is "destroyed", but as he is still on the board and as the FAQ entry above clearly states his ability is still active and will trigger once his harpooned condition damages nearby enemy ships, thus allowing him to shoot the damaged enemy ship well prior to him actually being removed from the board.

Agreed. "Destroyed" happens immediately when damage cards>hull, and is a seperate 'event' from being removed from the table.

• Pilot abilities are still in play until the end of the attack - because if they weren't, Tel Trevura's ability would never work.
• Simultaneous attack means it is possible to get a shot off after you are destroyed provided you have not yet been removed. Theoretically Quickdraw could get a shot off at someone who killed her, too.

Jostero is therefore still on the board, still able to attack and his pilot ability is still able to trigger with the effect 'perform an attack'. Since all of this happens 'nested' inside the attack which killed him, I've no problem with him getting his shot.

11 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Theoretically Quickdraw could get a shot off at someone who killed her, too.

Theoretically nothing - if triggered during an attack, her ability resolves at step 9, before she would consider whether she's removed or not at step 10. Her ability would go off regardless of whether there was a simultaneous fire happening.

By the same token, Jostero's should too.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Theoretically nothing - if triggered during an attack, her ability resolves at step 9, before she would consider whether she's removed or not at step 10. Her ability would go off regardless of whether there was a simultaneous fire happening.

Sorry; badly written - "Theoretically" because it requires her taking 4 uncancelled from a single attack (because she must have had a shield token left at the start of the attack), rather than because the rules don't support it.

I've always seen her lose shields before being killed.

Ah, I see.

I've had it happen

Is everyone saying:

1. Captain Jostero goes into step 7 with 1 hull remaining and the " Harpooned! " condition card.
2. He suffers 1 damage.
3. Now his remaining hull value is less than or equal to the number of damage cards assigned to him so he is "destroyed."
4. Being destroyed triggers the "When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage." part of the condition card.
5. An enemy ship is in Captain Jostero's firing arc and at Range 1, so the enemy ship suffers 1 damage.
6. We are still in step 7 - Captain Jostero's pilot ability has the opportunity to trigger and allows him to attack the enemy ship that suffered a damage and is not defending from an attack.
7. Captain Jostero completes his attack, during Step 10 of this attack destroyed ships are removed.
8. Exiting the nested attack we go back to the original attack that triggered " Harpooned! " and proceed to Step 8 and so on.

Or is everyone saying:

1. Captain Jostero goes into step 7 with 1 hull remaining and the " Harpooned! " condition card.
2. He suffers 1 damage.
3. Now his remaining hull value is less than or equal to the number of damage cards assigned to him so he is "destroyed."
4. We proceed to step 8, step 9, and finally step 10.
5. At the start of step 10 we realize he has been "destroyed" and the " Harpooned! " condition triggers.
6. An enemy ship at range 1 and in arc suffers 1 damage.
7. Captain Jostero's pilot ability triggers and nests a new attack between the beginning and final resolution of Step 10.
8. Captain Jostero's attack reaches step 10 and destroyed ships are removed.
9. We then finish whatever remains of the original attack's step 10 (which would only be a second acknowledgement of simultaneous attack ships not being removed as any destroyed ships would've been removed during step 10 of Captain Jostero's nested attack).

Tel Trevura's FAQ clarification sets the precedent that you are destroyed in Step 7, so the nested attack would resolve during Step 7. It is weird but, technically, the nested attack has to resolve all the way to step 10 before you return to the original attack. In this way Captain Jostero's own attack removes him from play. After Captain Jostero's nested attack's Step 10 you then go back to the original attack's step 8, 9, and then 10 (step 10 here is just a second acknowledgement of ships to not remove due to simultaneous fire rules). The next question is: If Captain Jostero dies during the first volley of TLT fire from Miranda Doni and is removed during Step 10 of his nested attack, when you return to the original attack and proceed to the substep before Step 8, does Miranda still get her second TLT attack on the ship now removed from the board? (If yes she could potentially regain a shield with the unnecessary shot.)

9 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

Tel Trevura's FAQ clarification sets the precedent that you are destroyed in Step 7, so the nested attack would resolve during Step 7.

Quickdraw's FAQ clarification indicates that Jostero's attack would take place in Step 9, and given it is an extra attack triggered by dealing damage it seems to be the closer analogue.

Is there any differing opinions if Jostero is killed outside of an attack, such as by a bomb or Black Market Slicer Tools?

There's the piece to the puzzle I was neglecting, resolves the whole attack twice problem. Almost like FFG knows what it's doing...

I would say it doesn't matter how Captain Jostero is killed, if he is destroyed the " Harpooned! " condition deals 1 damage to every ship at Range 1. If there is at least 1 enemy ship at Range 1 and in Captain Jostero's firing arc (or anywhere at Range 1 if he has a Hot Shot Blaster) he is still granted the opportunity to trigger his pilot ability. If he choses to trigger the ability it would interrupt any steps that would remove him from play until the attack had been fully resolved. Just like if Quickdraw ran over a proximity mine token and lost her last shield and all three hull (at least: hit, hit, crit --> Direct Hit. Though there are other combinations of damage cards that can take 4 health from one proximity mine detonation), she would still get to perform her attack before being removed from play.

I would just like to point out this little tidbit in "card abilities" of the rules reference, page 8:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active . The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

Dead Man's switch is an exception because the card specifically says so (bypassing this rule). Same principle for Tel Trevura. Harpooned! goes off when destroyed for the same reason.

This is still one heck of a headache to figure out, however. For example, if 3 hits and a crit gets through, on Jostero with 2 hull, the "harpooned!" is resolved first, so Jostero is still alive and his ability still active, so he could shoot if the splash affects an enemy (because there is an interruption?)? If he had a dead man's switch, however, all damage would be done, he would be classified as destroyed, dead man would activate, but Jostero's ability would be disabled before it could activate.

Wow, so many headaches! I'm not even sure if I'm following my own logic or not! If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me!

You're not wrong. The rules on the timing of destruction and removal are not consistent.

47 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

I would just like to point out this little tidbit in "card abilities" of the rules reference, page 8:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active . The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

Dead Man's switch is an exception because the card specifically says so (bypassing this rule). Same principle for Tel Trevura. Harpooned! goes off when destroyed for the same reason.

This is still one heck of a headache to figure out, however. For example, if 3 hits and a crit gets through, on Jostero with 2 hull, the "harpooned!" is resolved first, so Jostero is still alive and his ability still active, so he could shoot if the splash affects an enemy (because there is an interruption?)? If he had a dead man's switch, however, all damage would be done, he would be classified as destroyed, dead man would activate, but Jostero's ability would be disabled before it could activate.

Wow, so many headaches! I'm not even sure if I'm following my own logic or not! If I'm wrong, please don't crucify me!

Wow, FFG having directly contradictory rules text in 2 different rules documents I can't believe it!!! (SARCASM)

For reference, the RRG (with the above quote in it) was published in September 2015, the Version of the FAQ where the question I stated further up the thread first appeared was in FAQ Version 421 published on the 06-26-2016, as such I'm inclined to say that the later ruling should take precedence but with FFG it really could go either way depending on how the rules guys are feeling that specific day!

Also this is a really good reason to have 1 combined rules document rather than the 4 (Maybe 5?) Different documents we currently have with rules and regulations in them, to avoid unnecessary confusion.

No arguments here on inconsistent wording! Just look at Tel Trevura's FAQ entry and Dead Man's Switch's FAQ entry. Both entries have examples where both abilities resolve, presumably, at the end of the "Deal Damage" step but are each worded differently [though I would argue each wording yields the same end result as far as timing is concerned]: "If IG-88A destroys a ship equipped with Dead Man's Switch at Range 1, the effect of Dead Man's Switch is resolved during the 'Deal Damage' step, before IG-88A recovers 1 shield after the attack." and "Tel Trevura's ability triggers at the end of the 'Deal Damage' step and before any 'after attacking' or 'after defending' abilities trigger." I would then assume (which I know is dangerous) that " Harpooned! " would also get similar wording to, in the end, resolve at the end of the "Deal Damage" step. In that case Captain Jostero would be afforded the opportunity to trigger his pilot ability whether he was destroyed while afflicted by " Harpooned! " or equipped with Dead Man's Switch as he is not removed from the table until the conclusion of Step 10 - "Removed destroyed ships." However , the FAQ entry for abilities not working unless triggered prior to being "destroyed" most likely prevents him actually receiving the opportunity in either case and the only reason Tel Trevura's ability works is because it says: "The first time you would be destroyed [...]." which means, by grammatical English and, all be it, clever wording Tel Trevura's ability works because it triggers when you know s/he going to die even though the game state is not yet aware of it thereby allowing what should be a prevented ability to function. (If that made sense.)

And thus I've changed my mind from earlier and now do not believe Captain Jostero can trigger his ability when destroyed and post-" Harpooned! " trigger...

When looking at the Timing chart, Harpooned! condition card triggers ("When you are hit by an attack") at step 6. Compare results subsection "iv. Determine whether the defender is hit by the attack or the attack misses". Now if there is at least 1 "kaboom" result, each other ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage allowing Captain Jostero's ability to trigger.

6 hours ago, Hydborg said:

When looking at the Timing chart, Harpooned! condition card triggers ("When you are hit by an attack") at step 6. Compare results subsection "iv. Determine whether the defender is hit by the attack or the attack misses". Now if there is at least 1 "kaboom" result, each other ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage allowing Captain Jostero's ability to trigger.

Yes, but that is a different case. We're discussing the second clause on the " Harpooned! " condition which triggers when you are destroyed. In that case, if Captain Jostero has 1 hull and suffers 1 damage (and there are absolutely no kaboom results in the attack pool) he would still trigger " Harpooned! " but it would not be from an uncancelled kaboom result it would be from the "when you are destroyed" second clause.

The question is, when he is destroyed and " Harpooned! " goes off from that trigger, does his ability trigger if there is an enemy ship that suffers a damage due to this effect. The reason this is the question is because, though he remains on the board, he is already considered "destroyed" by the gamestate.