So we finally started our first Sea of Blood campaign. What a beautiful game. After some early missteps involving ambushes on the high seas in encounters, we emerged with the Revenge anchored just off an island in the Cerridor Sea. Taking the advice referenced in the SOB rules under Ships at Anchor that "the heroes may wish to use the ship's cannons before going ashore", I did just that, and had Tobin Farslayer man the Hawkeye cannon. He targeted one of the two Master Sorcerer level leaders at a range of 19 with an aimed attack, used his Shooting for Distance feat card, along with his Marksman (+3 Range) skill card, Command from Andira Runehand's Blessing skill, and +7 Range of the Hawkeye cannon itself.

The resulting roll included a range of 4 on the blue die and actually accumulated range of 25, scoring a hit on the startled master sorcerer which also incorporated +19 to damage as a result of Tobin's special ability (When Tobin makes a successful attack, add the distance to his target to his damage. Tobin cannot make ranged attacks against adjacent figures.) That attack was easily "fatal" to the master sorcerer, who then failed the undying roll on a blank.

My question is, was this a legal play?

In particular, "aiming" the cannon, using the Marksman skill and Andira's Command, and also using Tobin's special ability in calculating the damage.

I couldn't find any mention in the rules where any of this was not allowed, so had to assume that it's all ok. I would be interested in other people's take on this sequence, however..

Thanks very much in advance!

Yes, those were all legal plays, Tobin's ability is insane with cannons . Unless an ability is meant for a specific kind of attack other than what the cannon is (i.e. Mighty does not add 2 damage to cannons since it is for melee attacks, and Mad Carthos would only add damage to the two magic cannons and not the Ranged ones), it will go off. Monsters work the same way, if a monsters attack trait is the same as the cannon it is firing it's ability goes toward it, otherwise it won't. Command is the only exception as it affects all attacks. Hence, a Beastman won't get +2 damage because their attack is melee and none of the cannons are, but a Skeleton would get Pierce when using the Ranged cannons.

At least, that's how we play......I can't point you to a specific rulebook page that says that, but there aren't any that say no either. There has been some debate about this, and I think the answer I just said is the clearest one and makes the most sense according to RAW, but other people have other opinions on the matter, many of which are valid. I believe though, that cannons work just like any other kind of attack, and are thus effected by skills and abilities the same way.

Our group actually went the other way and decided until a clarification comes out (and we do pretty much agree that it will come out that abilities and the like work on cannons) to just say no abilities/skills work for cannons.

Looking at your summary though, one thing did stand out to me: Did you roll a red die when making the attack against the space the Master Sorcerer was standing in? Whenever you make an attack against a space that contains figures with a cannon you have to roll a red dice along with whatever the cannon rolls. If the red die rolls an X, then the attack misses the figure even if it hits that squares.

So by the RAW, no you did not play that attack legally if you didn't roll the red die.

Big Remy said:

I'm curious Big Remy as to how the game's been playing out thus far for you guys playing that way. Our group is having a hard enough time with fights like the Siren and such, the allowing skills to work with cannons seemed to be the only way we could make it balanced for us, but then my heroes don't have anyone with Shark Tattoo. How have your games been going playing with those rules? I'm just curious to hear about someone else's experience playing that way.

And on a side note I think he said he attacked with a Hawkeye cannon (which doesn't use the inaccuracy dice), which I'm not quite sure how they got before they even reached the first Island, unless they went to Hollow Woods first. Also he said the attack was aimed so it might've just been re-rolled after getting a miss anyway.

Kartigan said:

You're right, I missed the part that it was the Hawkeye cannon, so he was fine.

So far its worked out pretty well not using abilities. Its made the ocean battles fairly even. I do think they might be suffering a little in the Island levels, but I also start any minions so far back from the shore line that it isn't worth them trying to use the cannons. I make them swing out into the water and then rush them with people.

Thanks guys, yes it was a Hawkeye cannon, and I was aware that it was exempt from the red die roll. I don't think the cannon ball would have even "made landfall" without the feat card and Marksman skill, plus Command (and there is only one Shooting for Distance feat card in the deck, I'm pretty sure). Since the rulebook actually encourages firing the cannons before going ashore, I have to believe that the use of skill cards etc. is allowed, as without them cannon balls will just fall harmlessly in the water.

Yes, I did visit Hollow Woods prior to the island voyage.

Kartigan, I wanted to point out that Pierce (with skeletons) won't matter since cannons ignore armor.

Cannons ignores armor, so skeletons having pierce with cannons does not matter.

Schmiegel said:

I could've sworn there were two or three copies of it, but I might be wrong.

There are two or three copies of almost all feat cards.

EDIT: OK, I exaggerated. Roughly a quarter of the feat cards (by name) have only one copy each. But there are 3 copies of Shooting for Distance.

Schmiegel said:

It's all legal.
SoB pg26
The figure targets a space within the cannon’s firing arc (as described below), then rolls an attack using the cannon as his weapon
The figure targets the space and rolls an attack using the cannon as his weapon. We know the attacks are Melee, Ranged or Magic because of needing teh monster's traits, so it is an attack of the appropriate type and any or all skills appropiate will count.

The main problem is Tobin Farslayer.
There are three Promo characters that were not designed by FFG. IIRC they were designed by european foreign language manufacturers independent of FFG to market their own language copies (presumably licenced by FFG) of Descent.
Later, due to fan demand, FFG made their own copies of them for a limited release. But they chose not to change them from the originals.

However, these characters are very badly designed and, at least the two I can remember off the top of my head (Tobin and Kel), utterly broken. Especially in the advanced campaigns it seems, and especially when they are able to combine skills, feats, abilities, equipment etc from multiple expansions (ie, when they can abuse their badly written specials to the max).

Frankly, I recommend simply not using them.
I have a 3 armour, 12 Wounds, 4 conquest dwarf with 3 melee dice who can spend a fatigue to reroll a melee dice showing an X, made with the (not terribly well balanced) official FFG character creator programme. He is nowhere near as broken as Tobin or Kel.

Did you remember to count the "scrub" spaces on the island (which is pretty much the entire island) as 2 squares?

Fizz said:

Ah, an important point about the scrub squares, that really adds a lot to the range, yet I don't think it'd help Tobin's ability since I think that's actually based on "squares" isn't it? I wouldn't know since I don't have him. And lol, yes I forgot that cannons ignore Armor . So for the purposes of my example, let's pretend I said Skeletons still get their Range bonus when using a ranged cannon.

Kartigan said:

That's some interesting rules lawyering. Range is range and works the same for all figures no matter how it's worded.

edroz said:

Actually, "range" already has at least two technical meanings in the game: it is a rolled property of an attack that determines how far it can go, and it's also used to refer to the distance to a targeted square that determines how much range (first definition) the attack needs in order to succeed. You are actually explicitly comparing an attack's "range" to the same attack's "range" and they might not be equal.

"Next, the attacking player counts the number of spaces from the space occupied by the attacking figure to the targeted space. This is the range of the attack." (JitD p.10, emphasis in original)

"If no miss results are showing, the attacker adds up all the range number results on the rolled dice. The attack hits if the total range of the rolled dice is equal to or greater than the attack’s range." (JitD p.10, emphasis in original)

This is of course STUPID and they should have called one of them "distance" or something, but we're stuck with what they actually wrote.

So, do scrub spaces just increase the range(1) required by the attack in order to succeed, or do they actually increase the range(2) between the attacker and the target? (I have no clue, I haven't read the SoB rules.)

Corbon said:

I heartily agree with all of what Corbin said.

It is fun to add your Inner Fire , Dead Eye, Marksman or Blessing to your cannon shot, or the little bonus of your Archer's Charm, and for the OL it is cool to add the monsters' abilities. With Tobin, it is indeed stupid. Kel also is stupid on Island levels, where the OL can never spawn anywhere as long as he's around because there are no walls.

These promos, which Kevin Wilson most probably had no knowledge of when he made Sea of Blood, do not belong in a campaign. They are just advertisements, not tested game components. If you play with them, you force yourself to house-rule something.

The only FFG-made hero who might be a problem when using skills with cannon attacks is Laurel of Bloodwood. This is, however, compensated by the fact that he is the only hero with 8 health and 1 armor worth 3 conquest, so the OL should not get too much of a disadvantage if he is in play (contrarily to Tobin who has 16 health on top of his brokenness!).

Antistone said:

From the wording of the scrub entry I would have to say it adds two range(1) required by the attack in order to succeed. You're right though, that is as usual poorly written.

Just for reference, here's the text of Scrub:

Scrub
Block Movement? No
Block Line of Sight? No

When making a ranged attack into or through a scrub space,
every scrub space that line of sight is traced through adds two
range to the total distance instead of one. Melee attacks are not
affected by scrub.

-shnar

shnar said:

I missed the word "ranged" before attack. Again sloppy rules writing, someone wanting to be really technical could claim that this doesn't effect magic attacks. I would assume it does though, since they specifically mention Melee attacks are un-affected, but when you first read the sentence "When making a ranged attack...." might lead to some funny ideas. Silly FFG......who writes these rulebooks anyhow?

Yeah. "range" is such a common word, why didn't they just change it to a "missile" attack or something like that?

-shnar

shnar said:

Which will work fine until Descent: The Cold War campaign comes out and the OL is using ICBMs.

Interesting information, guys, thanks for the input. I would be feeling worse about Tobin's heroics, seen in this new light, if I weren't trailing in CP, 50-14, after the two ambushes and resulting TPK's to begin the game... But I don't really want to win by utilizing a broken character. I'd be interested to hear recommendations on the appropriate course of action. What would you do?

I could house rule that his damage is capped at x...but that seems kind of fiddly and/or intrusive. Or he could simply fail to return the next time he's killed, and be replaced by another ranged hero of my choice, with the skill selected at the outset etc. remaining intact. What are your thoughts?

Tobin was designed before the wide open spaces of Sea of Blood were thought of. So, within the confines of dungeon, his ability is a lot less. IMHO, there *should* be a cap on the extra damage he can get from his range. I would say around 6.

-shnar

Schmiegel said:

Selecting a new hero seems a good idea to me. That, or if you want to add a little random element, draw 3 among all heroes who have 3 ranged dice and choose one of them.

Schmiegel said:

I would change his wounds to 12 and his dice to 2Ranged, 1Melee. At least. (I'd prefer an 8W 1Ar 3CT version like Laurel, but there are several ways to use him and changing too much could unfairly affetc the player using him.

He stays a very powerful character. The changes are minimal and can't really be argued that they 'ruin' the character. They are even thematic, in that Tobin now has a melee dice for when he can't shoot at an adjacent target! He does get toned down a little bit, and also becomes quite a bit easier to kill and get that 4CT for.
You can probably estimate the extra CT that might have accrued and award that to the OL as well - it likely won't be that much, but it should help redress the balance.

For Kel I would add "For the purposes of an attack" to the start of her text - so her special only works for attacks. And probably move a dice and/or a skill to Ranged.

why would there be a hero that can 1 hit almost every ship in cooper, and kill the siren 1 shot easily .. and even it was meant to be that way how come there is only 1 character so broken ...

svarun said:

Well for one, he completely fits with FFG's policy of not designing everything only in relation to the base game. In the base game he really wouldn't be that bad, powerful but not insane. Yes he's broken...but Kel is far far worse especially in SoB. Because her LOS isn't blocked by obstacles, she can completely shut down spawning on the island levels and can do close to the same in dungeons.

I love that they made promo figures...but make them so they don't break the game. Corbon's suggestions for both are very reasoned options.