9 minutes ago, Incard said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy You're absolutely right of course. The only way it wins is if your opponent loses self control and the capacity for rational thought due to the intial salvo of missiles.

Poon!

Poon (100)

Roark Garnet (23) - HWK-290
Synced Turret (4)

Lieutenant Blount (20) - Z-95 Headhunter
Swarm Tactics (2), XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Airen Cracken (25) - Z-95 Headhunter
Swarm Tactics (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (16) - Z-95 Headhunter
Harpoon Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (16) - Z-95 Headhunter
Harpoon Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

That list has Roark, so it must be good

Think I’d rather just have more Z’s though. Missile swarms are weird; they don’t really behave like a normal alpha list. You sorta alpha and kill one dude, but then you’ll still have one or two Z’s with a missile, and that helps for the follow-up volley.

Wait, Harpooned seriously triggers on "cancel all dice results" attacks? That's kinda ridiculous, and needs to be FAQed into oblivion.

Can anyone make an argument for the necessity of this card existing? It’s the most blatant example of power creep we may have seen yet, as I refuse to believe the designers could not see that this was a better missile straight up versus a missile that costs a point more, while also adding unnecessary complexity creep.

I think the main reason we have this card is because someone really liked imagining a missile getting lodged in a ship's hull then exploding later.

Ok, I like cool ideas, too. But what if it did 1 facedown on a hit (cancel all dice), then when triggered did like 3 dice with no defense?

41 minutes ago, Incard said:

I think the main reason we have this card is because someone really liked imagining a missile getting lodged in a ship's hull then exploding later.

That’s exactly why we have this dumb card. Those guys said so on the Mynock interview. They had a commissioned art piece that didn’t get used for an other expansion and Alex Davey designed a card around the image of a missile stuck in a ship.

That’s Advanced Level game design there folks.

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm not quite sure why Harpoons get to retain the TL for modification. They are the best missile, in my opinion, because they pretty easily deal "5" damage tanks to TL + GC + Harpoon's eventual effect. This is with ANY speed maneuver you want. Cruise Missiles require going Speed 4 for that same kind of output, which is very limiting.

The potential for "splash damage" is just gravy against Biggs lists or Khiraxz/Wookie Swarm lists.

If you get hit by two harpoons and that one extra damage from the condition is your only issue with the missile … than I think the missile itself is fine.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Yes, because Harpooned assigns when the ship is hit, and one of its trigger conditions is if the ship dies. So

(1) Ship is attacked
(2) Ship is hit
(3) Harpooned is Assigned
(4) Damage is dealt
(5) Ship is destroyed
(6) Harpooned triggers

If this attack hits, after the attack resolves , assign the "Harpooned!" condition to the defender.

So it is:

(1) Ship is attacked
(2) Ship is hit
(4) Damage is dealt
(3) Harpooned is Assigned
(5) Ship is destroyed
(6) Harpooned triggers

And that is the reason why the initial attack can not trigger the condition via a crit, but only via destroying the ship.

Now FFG might add something to this chart, because harpoons trigger "after the attack has been resolved" which seems not 100% defined, but after the attack seems close enough as timing.

16 hours ago, Dwing said:

Harpoons is one of those missiles I can already tell I am going to get severely tired of fast. Rule jank and conditon cards with tokens.

Don't worry, Next FAQ might clear things up, or it just might not come out.

9 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

If this attack hits, after the attack resolves , assign the "Harpooned!" condition to the defender.

So it is:

(1) Ship is attacked
(2) Ship is hit
(4) Damage is dealt
(3) Harpooned is Assigned
(5) Ship is destroyed
(6) Harpooned triggers

And that is the reason why the initial attack can not trigger the condition via a crit, but only via destroying the ship.

Now FFG might add something to this chart, because harpoons trigger "after the attack has been resolved" which seems not 100% defined, but after the attack seems close enough as timing.

Is an attack completely resolved before finishing step 10?
If step 10 is part of the attack, then the condition isn't assigned until after the ship is destroyed and removed from the board, in which case, it wouldn't be assigned.
Since the chart is titled "[...] Performing an Attack", I would understand that all steps are part of the attack resolution.

Yes, if you've got Harpooned! but are destroyed by another Harpoon, only one condition can ever trigger

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

Is an attack completely resolved before finishing step 10?
If step 10 is part of the attack, then the condition isn't assigned until after the ship is destroyed and removed from the board, in which case, it wouldn't be assigned.
Since the chart is titled "[...] Performing an Attack", I would understand that all steps are part of the attack resolution.

From the logic of the english language? A attack would be resolved after step 10.
But the chart as an explicit "after attacking" stop for triggering abilities. So there is room for debate about the exact meaning of "after the attack" and if resolves is another case of immediately or not. FFG at their best.

13 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

From the logic of the english language? A attack would be resolved after step 10.
But the chart as an explicit "after attacking" stop for triggering abilities. So there is room for debate about the exact meaning of "after the attack" and if resolves is another case of immediately or not. FFG at their best.

My guess would be that the part you mention is there to clarify that you aren't allowed to use use "after attacking" abilities after each attack performed by "attack twice" attacks, but after both attacks are completed.
Following that chart to the letter, if the first attack of a TLT kills its target, it still needs to perform the second attack on the same target even when that target is already destroyed (but not removed yet), right?
If the Harpoon Missiles had had the "after this attack hits, assign the condition" text, there wouldn't be any debate. But it specifically uses a different formula "after this attack is resolved". Why wouldn't they use the same formula?

59 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Why wouldn't they use the same formula?

Because it's FFG we're talking about.

I just want to leave this here

To quote from back in August:

"My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. Compare that to Cruise Missiles. These allow 5 dice attacks, but that's hard to set up. In fact I've read again and again that you often have to use them after a 3speed maneuver for just 4 dice. That was also my own experience so far. Cruise missiles are 1 point cheaper, but much harder to use.

That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo.

So I claim that Harpoons will be the new go-to missiles. And that means swarms become literally unplayable for as long as Harpoon Missiles are to be expected."

By the way, @BoomOwl:

Quote

Ill ask my usual question though...should we panic now or panic later? Lets panic later.

Is it time now?

You've got the timings all wrong. The Harpooned condition never triggers if it would be applied by the attack that destroys the ship.

1. Declare target
2. Roll attack dice
3. Modify attack dice
4. Roll defense dice
5. Modify defense dice
6. Compare results
7. Deal damage - As per the rules a ship is considered destroyed once it has damage cards equal to its hull value. Ergo, any conditions that apply when a ship is destroyed would trigger here (unless specifically noted otherwise).
8. Rest of the steps...

Exactly when the harpoon condition is applied is not exactly clear but we can at the very least assume it's either at step 8 or after 10. Therefore it's impossible to trigger the harpoon condition from the very same attack that would apply it.

18 hours ago, Incard said:

I think the main reason we have this card is because someone really liked imagining a missile getting lodged in a ship's hull then exploding later.

Ok, I like cool ideas, too. But what if it did 1 facedown on a hit (cancel all dice), then when triggered did like 3 dice with no defense?

This is actually a super good point. If the missile lodges and then explodes later, why the heck does it do full damage? It would make way more sense as a 3-point, 3-die "if it hits, deal 1 x plus additional effect" card like Ion Pulse Missiles or Advanced Homing Missiles.

There's no justifiable reason why it should be the best damage missile in the game AND the best splash missile.

On 2017-11-20 at 7:20 PM, ScummyRebel said:

It doesn't say hit with a crit on harpooned. It says if there is an uncanceled crit. Happens at the same time as the "did.the attack hit"

Yeah but the crit from TLT are cancelled... no?

On 2017-11-20 at 8:06 PM, Innese said:

If the defending player has initiative, the uncanceled crit occurs first, triggering the condition. Then the attacker cancels TLT and deals 1 damage.

This is complete nonsense. It means that one part of the card text is completly ignored by attacks that cancel dices to change the result. Im 100% sure thats not how it's supposed/meant to work.

2 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but the crit from TLT are cancelled... no?

Yes, at the same time as checking for an uncanceled crit.

It's the simultaneous effects rule. So whoever has initiative would go first and if the effect belongs to the same person they control the order.

1. Harpooned! triggers when the target is hit. This is determined at the end of the "compare results" step and that is when the condition is activated.

2. Incidentally, TLT's ability (as well as the ability of any weapon that does not deal damage normally but instead does something special and then cancels all attack dice) also triggers at the very same moment.

3. At first glance that would suggest that it's the initiative that determines whether TLT can trigger "harpooned!" or not, because either TLT is resolved first and the dice are cancelled before "harpooned!" trigger is checked or not.

4. However, as it was pointed out to me, the first glance is probably wrong. It is based on the assumption that the entirety of the text on the TLT card is resolved before the text on the "harpooned!" card is resolved. That might not be true because of the presence of " then " keyword on the TLT card.

Several months ago we had a precedent ruling concerning the interaction between Kanan Jarrus crewman and Inertial dampeners. Some people believed that the entirety of the text on the Inertial dampeners card is resolved first or that at the very least the "receive 1 stress token" has the same timing window as Kanan. That would mean that the player could resolve both effects in any order and use Kanan to clear stress after using Inertial dampeners.

The official ruling was different however. The presence of " then " keyword on the Inertial dampeners card means that stress is received after all the other effects triggered by the first part of the text (performing white maneuver) are resolved, Kanan Jarrus included.

Coming back to the subject: TLT ability is triggered when the target is hit and so is "harpooned!". Only then are the attack dice cancelled. So, if the Dampeners/Kanan ruling is any indication, TLT should trigger "harpooned!" no matter the initiative. For that matter, even weapons that do not cause damage at all, such as tractor beam or thread tracers, should be able to trigger it.

That said, this definitely merits a FAQ entry because it IS unintuitive and highly controversial. I don't get why they didn't just use the same trigger as Kylo. Would be way easier to understand and apply.

I now dream of killing a ship that has Harpooned! with a tractor beam cannon :-)

22 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Now, two Scurrgs with Deadeye and double Harpoons that can't be easily killed before they shoot off one or both Harpoons... they scare me like crazy and have been a real struggle on the tabletop to defeat. Especially since they are usually paired with a quality Scum Ace you don't want in the endgame.

Before fixing the scouts they realeased thats just as OP and gave it a missile that's worst than plasma torp. They already made 1 nerf and i'm sure they will need to make some more. Just like they did with the JMKs.

It has more or less made every other missile obsolete. I have this feeling that Harpoon missiles will end up being this via some future errata:

"If this attack hits, the defender suffers one damage and is assign the "Harpooned" condition. Then cancel all dice results."

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

From the logic of the english language? A attack would be resolved after step 10.
But the chart as an explicit "after attacking" stop for triggering abilities. So there is room for debate about the exact meaning of "after the attack" and if resolves is another case of immediately or not. FFG at their best.

Yeah but harpoon is not triggered after attacking but after the attack resolves. IMO that means after the 10 steps are completed.

8 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but harpoon is not triggered after attacking but after the attack resolves. IMO that means after the 10 steps are completed.

Harpooned! condition is assigned after the harpoon missiles attack resolves. If it's already on the target, it is triggered on being hit (by any attack). And "being hit" happens in the "compare results" step. That's definitely not "after 10 steps are completed".