Just had an Epic Casual team game last night. So much fun. I was an honest merchant when the Imperial Po-Po decided to come down on my operation. I don't think they will be back.

6 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Just had an Epic Casual team game last night. So much fun. I was an honest merchant when the Imperial Po-Po decided to come down on my operation. I don't think they will be back.

Is that C-roc backwards?

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 2:30 AM, Hwarangdaem said:

Ban Ruthlessness Tie/D defenders. One of the most NPE there is in team epic. Add howlrunner and jonus to that. Fly in no formation. Doesnt matter when you get tractored next to another ship and then mauled to death by like 7 more defenders

This is actually one of the reasons I love the Epic format. You get to see all kinds of wacky stuff that wouldn't be good in 100/6 really shine.

Also Epic actually allows all of the ships to fill their roles. You can fly a formation of TIE Bombers instead of 1 or 2. One of them might get taken out on the approach (which would be huge blow in a normal game) but you've got the rest of the formation to throw a punishing ordnance alpha strike.

Epic also smooths out the Pilot Skill curve. Hyper elite aces tend to get smoked in Epic play since there are too many arcs to dodge and lots of token stripping abilities. In epic you see a lot more generics and mid level PS mini aces (you only need PS 5+ to shoot before the huge ships).

Epic also devalues 'Once per turn' auto-dice mod abilities like C-3P0 and Emperor Palpatine, two cards that can be broken in 100/6.

4 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

This is actually one of the reasons I love the Epic format. You get to see all kinds of wacky stuff that wouldn't be good in 100/6 really shine.

Also Epic actually allows all of the ships to fill their roles. You can fly a formation of TIE Bombers instead of 1 or 2. One of them might get taken out on the approach (which would be huge blow in a normal game) but you've got the rest of the formation to throw a punishing ordnance alpha strike.

Epic also smooths out the Pilot Skill curve. Hyper elite aces tend to get smoked in Epic play since there are too many arcs to dodge and lots of token stripping abilities. In epic you see a lot more generics and mid level PS mini aces (you only need PS 5+ to shoot before the huge ships).

Epic also devalues 'Once per turn' auto-dice mod abilities like C-3P0 and Emperor Palpatine, two cards that can be broken in 100/6.

I agree with all that Kommander Keldoth says.

Not only does formation flying look cool, but it also speeds up the game. Once you get used to Epic, it doesn't take as long. One reason people say it takes forever is you have to get used to the new rules and such. There are thoughts about new strategies and "am I doing this right?" Overall, the more people play, the faster epic gets.

Another thing that helps speed things up is that not every ship of the same type is the same PS. Nothing is more boring than when your opponent has to figure out moving 12 Academy pilots. Break them up into different PS pilots, even if it's not super efficient points wise. It's efficient movement wise. Also, having ships that fire before the epic ships is also pretty good. Or even at the same time, so if they are destroyed, they still get to fire. That's actually pretty important, especially with ordnance carriers.

If your store has any 40k terrain or other stuff, it's fun to put that on the table, too. Have a fight over a ruined city, jungle, or in Beggar's Canyon. Visually pleasing makes it more fun.

More generics is better. Don't dump your points into expensive ships. Having a bunch of cheap Khiraxzes is better than a handful of aces.

9 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Is that C-roc backwards?

By golly, I think you are right. Can I blame the beer?

9 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Is that C-roc backwards?

5 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

By golly, I think you are right. Can I blame the beer?

C-ROC backwards is CORC. You should have been drinking wine.

On 11/20/2017 at 4:00 AM, Astech said:

Just a couple more guidelines I've been able to put into writing:

AOE:

Area of effect abilities become better (linearly, but still significantly) the more things they effect. There are obvious examples like Howlrunner, Jonus, Serissu and formerly Biggs that have direct, game-warping abilities when used right, and they all come into their own in Epic play. In particular, Jonus next to a ordinance Raider is absurdly strong.

However, there are a few other kinds of AOE abilities that really come into their own in epic play. Lesser known pilots like Etahn A'Baht, Palob Godalhi, Newbacca (New Chewie), and Lieuteant Blount with his auto-include AOE missile can all have massive effects if built right. Etahn in particular is my favourite - he essentially turns every shot into a Mangler cannon-like mod, which is particularly brutal on Huge ships.

A couple of crew upgrades also have AOE effects. Mara Jade, in particular, can be fantastic on a Huge ship (probably a Gozanti) due to the sheer amount of stress she can dish out. Toryn Farr is also pretty fantastic if you can spare both the energy and action, like on a throwaway GR-75. Opeations specialists become terrifying en masse. Jyn Erso crew becomes absurdly reliable given the number of ships in the scum, and can be used to very effectively buff big-hitters. Technically, Leia Organa is an AOE crew, but she's not worth the points, sadly.

Naturally Assault and Harpoon missiles, along with Ion Torpedoes are effective and easily triggered AOE, but good counter play can leave you damaging yourself just as much.

Bombs are pretty much the ultimate AOE, if a tad difficult to trigger, since you have to survive a turn in the optimal position to drop the bomb. This will soon change dramatically with Trajectory simulator, but in the meantime unorthodox means will suffice. Just think how much you'd pay for two Thermal Detonators double-stressing an opponent's entire list, or a couple of Proton Bombs decimating a flight of B-wings. It might be worth the price of 2 K-wings and a Biggs protector to get those bombs off.

Finally, you have the ultimate AOE: 12 Z-95 headhunters with a dead man's switch. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

Efficiency:

While is can be tempting to unleash a horde of cheap generics, you have to realise the base mechanics of the game remain the same - ATT3 and AGI 2 with high hull is efficient. You really want to shy away from half-modified ATT2 guns like Academy TIEs, since they rarely pay for their points. Similarly, the big ATT 4 powerhouses in the Ghost, Phantom and Upsilon cost more than that extra red die will dish out before they quickly burn to the ground. You'll also want to shy away from some of the more fragile ATT 3 guns like TIE strikers and Unguided Rocket Aggressors.

I mentioned above that T-70s, Defenders and Shadowcasters are the top picks for each faction, and that's because they're all high agility tanks. The agility stops them from being focus fired by swarms upon swarms of half-modified shots. Defenders are probably the worst of these, as X7s need to avoid bumping, and /Ds have trouble modifying shots. T-70s have a similar problem - blocking them (especially Poe) is their end, and it's incredibly easy to do with the number of ships in Epic play. This makes Shadowcasters the ultimate jousting efficiency ship in Epic play, as they can equip glitterstim for turns on which they bump, andits aces can go a step further with Countermeasures to ensure a turn of total invulnerability. Thedownside to them is, of course, the significantly increased cost for no extra firepower.

Other ways to boost the efficiency of a list that is otherwise very lacklustre. Take, for instance, a snap/juke A-wing swarm. It's pretty decent at jousting, but gets devastated in the combat phase. But pair them with 4 Ion Cannon Turret HWKs carrying Operations Specialists and they suddenly become terrifying, as every missed snap shot gives 4 focus tokens to the swarm. That's an awful lot of focus tokens, spread however you wish. You can give similar buffs to many lists, but make sure the squad isn't entirely dependent on a single ship, like a 24 TIE Howlrunner swarm would be.

Compartmentalisation:

It's all well and good to have 12 FCS B-wings and nothing else in your list, but you're going to have innate vulnerabilities to other lists. At 300 points it's still difficult to divide a list into more than two segments without compromising on one of them, but at 400 points you and your partner have a lot of freedom to make "squads" of ships.

For instance, I might choose to fly a Rebel wing with:
4 Blue Squad T-70s equipped with Flight Assist Astromechs and Guidance chips.
4 Green Squadron Pilot A-wings with Harpoon Missiles, Crack Shot, Deadeye and guidance chips.
Dash Rendar with HLC, Rey, Outrider and Lone Wolf.
Roark Garnet with Jyn alongside a CR-90 corvette loaded with Harpoon Missiles, Supercharged Power Cells and carrying Bistan crew.

I get 4 incredibly solid jousters who can catch up to the fight after a joust, 4 incredibly maneuverable, highly dangerous flanking A-wings with anti swarm and anti-capital ship weaponry, Dash to use as bait and rear guard, depending on the situation, and a seriously pumped up CR-90 dishing out the crits to detonate Harpoons all over the place. I'm strong against swarms, strong against jousters, strong against alpha strikes and strong against pimped out capital ships, and there's still 13 points to spare to bump up a few ships to aces of your discretion.

You do, however, want to avoid a situation like with my A-wings above - that's 100 points of list that is utterly dependent on getting focus tokens to shoot, and Toryn Farr can remove them in one fell swoop, not to mention their innate fragility and low PS. Each 'squad' has to be able to stand on its own two feet.

This is very well written and covers all of the aspects of Epic play in my opinion. Obviously individual lists will vary to taste, but I think you covered the basics rather well.

On 11/22/2017 at 9:14 AM, KommanderKeldoth said:

This is actually one of the reasons I love the Epic format. You get to see all kinds of wacky stuff that wouldn't be good in 100/6 really shine.

Also Epic actually allows all of the ships to fill their roles. You can fly a formation of TIE Bombers instead of 1 or 2. One of them might get taken out on the approach (which would be huge blow in a normal game) but you've got the rest of the formation to throw a punishing ordnance alpha strike.

Epic also smooths out the Pilot Skill curve. Hyper elite aces tend to get smoked in Epic play since there are too many arcs to dodge and lots of token stripping abilities. In epic you see a lot more generics and mid level PS mini aces (you only need PS 5+ to shoot before the huge ships).

Epic also devalues 'Once per turn' auto-dice mod abilities like C-3P0 and Emperor Palpatine, two cards that can be broken in 100/6.

You wont love Epic format after you've flown against like 8 Ruthlessness Defenders that destroy half of your ships before you even get to shoot with them. Splitting up doesn't really help when they just annihilate your ships one by one then. They are PS6 that is more than any generic you can field.

That is so stupid and NPE 8 Defenders proccing ruthlessness up to 16 times in a round + primary + cannon damage. Adding that they have 6 hull behind 3 agility. By the time you focus maybe 1-2 down, you've lost most of your list if not all.

That was my first and probably last Team epic tournament.. Casual games are different though because people usually play fluff lists and so on and pilots you usually wont see in standard play.

13 minutes ago, Hwarangdaem said:

You wont love Epic format after you've flown against like 8 Ruthlessness Defenders that destroy half of your ships before you even get to shoot with them. Splitting up doesn't really help when they just annihilate your ships one by one then. They are PS6 that is more than any generic you can field.

That is so stupid and NPE 8 Defenders proccing ruthlessness up to 16 times in a round + primary + cannon damage. Adding that they have 6 hull behind 3 agility. By the time you focus maybe 1-2 down, you've lost most of your list if not all.

That was my first and probably last Team epic tournament.. Casual games are different though because people usually play fluff lists and so on and pilots you usually wont see in standard play.

Ouch. That sucks. That’s why l like the unwritten rule of at least one epic ship.

2 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

Ouch. That sucks. That’s why l like the unwritten rule of at least one epic ship.

Indeed. Now that Scum has their epic I really wish FFG would just update the epic rules. Not that it matters anyway since its basically a casual format at this point.

I forget who posted it but there was a great alternate epic point rule set someone posted on here. You had to have a certain number of epic points. TLTs, heavy laser cannons and large ships all counted towards your epic points (forget the exact values). Basically it forced you to take an epic ship and/or a few large ships to stop swarms from dominating and put hard limits on TLT/HLC spam

28 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

Ouch. That sucks. That’s why l like the unwritten rule of at least one epic ship.

Fun fact. We were the only ones with our buddy that flew epic ships in that tournament. It was a liability there.. So yeah.

But to be honest. You could just get naked gozanti instead of one defender.. Unless you add somekind points requirement too.

Slim Gozanti or slim GR75; either are a lot more devilish than expected. Specially at ramming speed.

3 hours ago, Hwarangdaem said:

You wont love Epic format after you've flown against like 8 Ruthlessness Defenders that destroy half of your ships before you even get to shoot with them. Splitting up doesn't really help when they just annihilate your ships one by one then. They are PS6 that is more than any generic you can field.

That is so stupid and NPE 8 Defenders proccing ruthlessness up to 16 times in a round + primary + cannon damage. Adding that they have 6 hull behind 3 agility. By the time you focus maybe 1-2 down, you've lost most of your list if not all.

That was my first and probably last Team epic tournament.. Casual games are different though because people usually play fluff lists and so on and pilots you usually wont see in standard play.

That's kinda hilarious. One, because they actually bought 8 Defenders and Two, because they decided they didn't want to have fun. Like many Epic lists that don't compartmentalise, it has auto-win matchups and auto-lose match ups, and a spectrum in between. You can compensate for the devastation in a few ways:

Flying AGI 0 ships. For instance, 6 Ghosts with FCS, Gunner and Biggs behind then don't give a crap about either Ruthlessness or Tractor Beams.
You can one-up them and fly 8 Gamma Squad Veterans with Veteran Instincts to be at PS 7, then wipe the floor with them before they even get to shoot.
You can fly CROCs, which are pretty much the TIE/D hard counter, and wreck them while having a good time doing it.
Take an awful, awful lot of bombing K-wings and use a couple GR-75s with EM Emitters as a screen for them, they won't know what hit them.

2 hours ago, Hwarangdaem said:

Fun fact. We were the only ones with our buddy that flew epic ships in that tournament. It was a liability there.. So yeah.

But to be honest. You could just get naked gozanti instead of one defender.. Unless you add some kind points requirement too.

A naked Gozant is easily better than having the one extra Defender - Ramming is a thing, and so if you position it well, it can become Imperial Biggs when it's about to crush your enemy's fleet, only with twice the health and a reinforce token.