I am thinking about getting into team epic, maybe tournament play included, but first a few questions to the epic players in the forum.
How does it play?
How long does it take per game?
Any obvious issues with the FFG rules / balance between factions?
Got any tips, builds or stories to share?
It's awesome.
Since it is 200 points per player per side (400 per side total), call it 3-4 hours. In all my Epic play, I really haven't found too many faction balance issues. I think the main thing you'll notice is that XWM 1.0 (the early, yet to be fixed ships) are still weak compared to XWM 2.0 (the current stuff). OTOH, "good but not top tier" and support ships like the U-Wing, Lambda, T-65s, and even the Firespray can really shine. Larger point totals really iron out some of the meta kinks the game has.
Arc Dodgers get creamed; it is very hard to stay out of arc. OTOH, overall maneuverability does not matter as much, because in 3x6 K-turns and red maneuvers aren't much of a deal. I have played entire games without dialing in a red or a K.
I have a hard time if I use too many aces/uniques. . .it can be hard to make sure you take advantage of all their special abilities. I like to build units of identical ships, then add in some "heroes" that are uniques.
Make sure asteroids block avenues of approach. A wide open space leads to a Braveheart-style charge, which is only good for you if you have solid alpha strike or tanks to eat damage and be there to return fire.
You can freely talk with your partner, which is a good thing since you want to combine fire without bumping. It's a lot harder to do when you are not in control of all the dials for your team
Another great way to go is to divide duties. . .one guy is alpha strike, the other is support. Or one guy is Huge ship, and the other is starfighter support.
At the end of the day, though, it is glorious Star Wars space opera. Which is one reason I wish FFG would make sure generics get EPTs, because they really help you to design personalized mini-squads.
Edited by Darth Meanie
33 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:It's awesome.
Since it is 200 points per player per side (400 per side total), call it 3-4 hours.
4 Hours is a really limiting factor, even a 4 team round robin or 8 team swiss would take 9 to 12 hours.
So I guess time-limits are in everyone's interest. The tournament rules mention time limits, but I doesn't seem to specific one. Oversight by me or FFG?
10 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:4 Hours is a really limiting factor, even a 4 team round robin or 8 team swiss would take 9 to 12 hours.
So I guess time-limits are in everyone's interest. The tournament rules mention time limits, but I doesn't seem to specific one. Oversight by me or FFG?
Yeah, I don't know, cuz I play at home. OTOH, we will concede a game that is winding down/lopsided to go home and get some zzzzs.
For me, a game of epic or team epic is a night's play after work, which is exactly what I'm after. It's just that it is one big game rather than several mini-matches.
I mean, with 2 experienced players it might go faster because you are both setting dials at the same time. OTOH, there is the group decision-making, too.
There are a lot of near-broken cards in epic. Harpoons are up there, and so are Ion Torpedoes (splash from a Huge ship). I'd recommend Defenders for Imperials, T-70 X-wings for Rebels and Shadowcasters for Scum for a forgiving first game.
You've got to make sure the other players move quickly - analysis paralysis can bog the game down for several hours more than it should.
The Zuckuss and Maul cards are broken in Epic since Epic ships can’t receive stress.
Also, when I use unique pilots, I like to add a peg so they’re higher than my generics. It helps remind me they have unique abilities.
Nothing quite like TIEs chasing T65s between cruisers in a desperate battle at point blank range.
FFG managed epic tournaments by MOV largely. Timed matches were, um... 2.5 hours, I think? I summon forth @Parakitor for superior knowledge! Anyway, if you can get three rounds in you're pretty golden. FFG did 300 point epic at GenCon 2016, only two rounds due to mishaps. While the time limit seems short, a lot of epic games start sliding one way and it's a long hard slide to stop once it's rolling. Don't underestimate the cruisers.
Just now, weisguy119 said:The Zuckuss and Maul cards are broken in Epic since Epic ships can’t receive stress.
Maybe in combination? I mean, one shot is rough but you can deal with a cruiser with a single cannon. The CROC is a generalist, and it doesn't excel at combat or support.
1 minute ago, LagJanson said:Maybe in combination? I mean, one shot is rough but you can deal with a cruiser with a single cannon. The CROC is a generalist, and it doesn't excel at combat or support.
You can drop Maul on a CR-90 if Ezra is in your list somewhere.
4 minutes ago, weisguy119 said:You can drop Maul on a CR-90 if Ezra is in your list somewhere.
Ok, that's a little more broken!
2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:It's awesome.
Since it is 200 points per player per side (400 per side total), call it 3-4 hours. In all my Epic play, I really haven't found too many faction balance issues. I think the main thing you'll notice is that XWM 1.0 (the early, yet to be fixed ships) are still weak compared to XWM 2.0 (the current stuff). OTOH, "good but not top tier" and support ships like the U-Wing, Lambda, T-65s, and even the Firespray can really shine. Larger point totals really iron out some of the meta kinks the game has.
Arc Dodgers get creamed; it is very hard to stay out of arc. OTOH, overall maneuverability does not matter as much, because in 3x6 K-turns and red maneuvers aren't much of a deal. I have played entire games without dialing in a red or a K.
I have a hard time if I use too many aces/uniques. . .it can be hard to make sure you take advantage of all their special abilities. I like to build units of identical ships, then add in some "heroes" that are uniques.
Make sure asteroids block avenues of approach. A wide open space leads to a Braveheart-style charge, which is only good for you if you have solid alpha strike or tanks to eat damage and be there to return fire.
You can freely talk with your partner, which is a good thing since you want to combine fire without bumping. It's a lot harder to do when you are not in control of all the dials for your team
Another great way to go is to divide duties. . .one guy is alpha strike, the other is support. Or one guy is Huge ship, and the other is starfighter support.
At the end of the day, though, it is glorious Star Wars space opera. Which is one reason I wish FFG would make sure generics get EPTs, because they really help you to design personalized mini-squads.
Well said.
A little nugget to add: leave the opponents epic alone. It is sooo tempting to go after that; take out their small ships and the epics melt. If you are worried have your strike squad carry ion.
Edited by CcwebbIt is good but again prepare to take the better part of a day if doing more than one game.
When doing a team game you always have to coordinate with your teammate on who is bringing what, because face it you can't both be bringing Emperor Palpatine. However per team even though you are restricted to 3 epic points per player which is just one ship it is 1 more per side than a 1 on 1 epic match with 5 epic points (a support and a corvette). So you can have two Raiders of CR-90s.
Broken stuff in X-wing will still be broken in Epic. TLTs melt through everything (huge ships included) and the only defense huge ships have against them is the ability to recover shields, but you often need that energy to fire your weapons unless you are using ordnance tubes. If you use ordnance tubes you will need Weapons Engineer for multiple target locks. Arc Dodgers don't have as good as a time as with more ship there is less uncovered areas even on a play area that is twice the size. If you are bringing huge ships decide on what weapons (or abilities if taking a support ship) you are going to use it for and the go form there. The meta tends to be the big corvette gunships are taking down by starfighter swarms (no huge ships, small and large only). The support ships are great in being cheap that they can make it so you can take on star fighter swarms. But support ships are easy pickings for the larger gunships.
At GenCon, Epic rounds were 3 hours, iirc. This summer I participated in both an Epic tournament and Team Epic tournament. Both were awesome, and I believe both had 2.5 hour rounds. In Epic, most games finished in that time, but in Team Epic, most didn't, which introduced a very interesting dynamic in regards to target priority: you want to get more points than the opponent, but are the ships that are worth more disproportionately difficult to destroy? It's harder to judge when there are so many ships on the table. Lots of fun!
2 hours ago, Ccwebb said:A little nugget to add: leave the opponents epic alone. It is sooo tempting to go after that; take out their small ships and the epics melt. If you are worried have your strike squad carry ion.
Ooh, now see, you have to be careful of that. My Epic squad consists of a Gozanti support ship with no weapons. You can save it for last, but it is worth more than its points in the actions it provides to my fighters. I love it when my opponents ignore it.
(If I had a battle report of Team Epic, I'd post it.)
I know many likely won't agree with me on this, but for Epic ships, the Gozanti is king.
1 minute ago, That One Guy said:I know many likely won't agree with me on this, but for Epic ships, the Gozanti is king.
I think gozanti or croc is the best. Maul makes the croc really nifty
5 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:I think gozanti or croc is the best. Maul makes the croc really nifty
Like a million years ago I made a post about my favorite Gozanti build... lemme dig it up.
The only epic play I've had is Team Epic and it's been around 2 hours (maybe it runs over 10 or so minutes). It's a lot of fun and needs more FFG support!
Thread tracers are invaluable.
We play team Epic, mostly 300 points aside, mostly.
Our coming up game is going to be 1200 points and slightly themed, Imperials, Scum Vs Rebels and even more Rebels.
All four factions must contain at least one Epic ship and support along with a special character (pilots or crew) Vader, Luke, Han and Jabba.
Penalties will occur if one of the special characters gets taken out.
Our games last 2-3 hours, we play tournament rules for the most part, this up coming game I'm expecting at least 4 hours.
The Gozanti is my favorite of the current ships though I rarely get to fly it as most games I'm flying the Corellian Corvette.
I ve organized 2 epic tournaments, the most recent one last month. I had to stick to 250 min rounds 300 points to finish 3 games in a day. By the end of the second match everyone was too exhausted already for the last round. 250 mins are not enough usually to see the big sticks go down in flames, but its enough to decide the winner. By that time most 3 point epic ships were with 1 section crippled and 2 point ships destroyed.
Typo or are in indeed 4 hours 10 minutes not enough to see a raider go boom?
Just a couple more guidelines I've been able to put into writing:
AOE:
Area of effect abilities become better (linearly, but still significantly) the more things they effect. There are obvious examples like Howlrunner, Jonus, Serissu and formerly Biggs that have direct, game-warping abilities when used right, and they all come into their own in Epic play. In particular, Jonus next to a ordinance Raider is absurdly strong.
However, there are a few other kinds of AOE abilities that really come into their own in epic play. Lesser known pilots like Etahn A'Baht, Palob Godalhi, Newbacca (New Chewie), and Lieuteant Blount with his auto-include AOE missile can all have massive effects if built right. Etahn in particular is my favourite - he essentially turns every shot into a Mangler cannon-like mod, which is particularly brutal on Huge ships.
A couple of crew upgrades also have AOE effects. Mara Jade, in particular, can be fantastic on a Huge ship (probably a Gozanti) due to the sheer amount of stress she can dish out. Toryn Farr is also pretty fantastic if you can spare both the energy and action, like on a throwaway GR-75. Opeations specialists become terrifying en masse. Jyn Erso crew becomes absurdly reliable given the number of ships in the scum, and can be used to very effectively buff big-hitters. Technically, Leia Organa is an AOE crew, but she's not worth the points, sadly.
Naturally Assault and Harpoon missiles, along with Ion Torpedoes are effective and easily triggered AOE, but good counter play can leave you damaging yourself just as much.
Bombs are pretty much the ultimate AOE, if a tad difficult to trigger, since you have to survive a turn in the optimal position to drop the bomb. This will soon change dramatically with Trajectory simulator, but in the meantime unorthodox means will suffice. Just think how much you'd pay for two Thermal Detonators double-stressing an opponent's entire list, or a couple of Proton Bombs decimating a flight of B-wings. It might be worth the price of 2 K-wings and a Biggs protector to get those bombs off.
Finally, you have the ultimate AOE: 12 Z-95 headhunters with a dead man's switch. Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Efficiency:
While is can be tempting to unleash a horde of cheap generics, you have to realise the base mechanics of the game remain the same - ATT3 and AGI 2 with high hull is efficient. You really want to shy away from half-modified ATT2 guns like Academy TIEs, since they rarely pay for their points. Similarly, the big ATT 4 powerhouses in the Ghost, Phantom and Upsilon cost more than that extra red die will dish out before they quickly burn to the ground. You'll also want to shy away from some of the more fragile ATT 3 guns like TIE strikers and Unguided Rocket Aggressors.
I mentioned above that T-70s, Defenders and Shadowcasters are the top picks for each faction, and that's because they're all high agility tanks. The agility stops them from being focus fired by swarms upon swarms of half-modified shots. Defenders are probably the worst of these, as X7s need to avoid bumping, and /Ds have trouble modifying shots. T-70s have a similar problem - blocking them (especially Poe) is their end, and it's incredibly easy to do with the number of ships in Epic play. This makes Shadowcasters the ultimate jousting efficiency ship in Epic play, as they can equip glitterstim for turns on which they bump, andits aces can go a step further with Countermeasures to ensure a turn of total invulnerability. Thedownside to them is, of course, the significantly increased cost for no extra firepower.
Other ways to boost the efficiency of a list that is otherwise very lacklustre. Take, for instance, a snap/juke A-wing swarm. It's pretty decent at jousting, but gets devastated in the combat phase. But pair them with 4 Ion Cannon Turret HWKs carrying Operations Specialists and they suddenly become terrifying, as every missed snap shot gives 4 focus tokens to the swarm. That's an awful lot of focus tokens, spread however you wish. You can give similar buffs to many lists, but make sure the squad isn't entirely dependent on a single ship, like a 24 TIE Howlrunner swarm would be.
Compartmentalisation:
It's all well and good to have 12 FCS B-wings and nothing else in your list, but you're going to have innate vulnerabilities to other lists. At 300 points it's still difficult to divide a list into more than two segments without compromising on one of them, but at 400 points you and your partner have a lot of freedom to make "squads" of ships.
For instance, I might choose to fly a Rebel wing with:
4 Blue Squad T-70s equipped with Flight Assist Astromechs and Guidance chips.
4 Green Squadron Pilot A-wings with Harpoon Missiles, Crack Shot, Deadeye and guidance chips.
Dash Rendar with HLC, Rey, Outrider and Lone Wolf.
Roark Garnet with Jyn alongside a CR-90 corvette loaded with Harpoon Missiles, Supercharged Power Cells and carrying Bistan crew.
I get 4 incredibly solid jousters who can catch up to the fight after a joust, 4 incredibly maneuverable, highly dangerous flanking A-wings with anti swarm and anti-capital ship weaponry, Dash to use as bait and rear guard, depending on the situation, and a seriously pumped up CR-90 dishing out the crits to detonate Harpoons all over the place. I'm strong against swarms, strong against jousters, strong against alpha strikes and strong against pimped out capital ships, and there's still 13 points to spare to bump up a few ships to aces of your discretion.
You do, however, want to avoid a situation like with my A-wings above - that's 100 points of list that is utterly dependent on getting focus tokens to shoot, and Toryn Farr can remove them in one fell swoop, not to mention their innate fragility and low PS. Each 'squad' has to be able to stand on its own two feet.
1 hour ago, Astech said:However, there are a few other kinds of AOE abilities that really come into their own in epic play. Lesser known pilots like Etahn A'Baht, Palob Godalhi, Newbacca (New Chewie), and Lieuteant Blount with his auto-include AOE missile can all have massive effects if built right. Etahn in particular is my favourite - he essentially turns every shot into a Mangler cannon-like mod, which is particularly brutal on Huge ships.
On huge ships, it's actually not so bad - with Thug Droids being cheap and available - but it is brutal for everyone else.
And yes, any 'your whole squad' stuff is potent as heck:
Maul and Wookie Commandoes are awesome on large ships, as is Dengar, 4-LOM and Zuckuss (although scum are somewhat limited in not having a corvette).
Harpoons are definitely harsh. Paired up with Vaksai Guidance Chips, it's easy to get the crit to detonate them, which makes them brutally effective.
I'd agree that massed T-70s are probably the best thing rebels have going for them.
Ban Ruthlessness Tie/D defenders. One of the most NPE there is in team epic. Add howlrunner and jonus to that. Fly in no formation. Doesnt matter when you get tractored next to another ship and then mauled to death by like 7 more defenders
I think it's important to think what you want out if an Epic game. To you want casual and theme? Or do you want competitive? The latter means you can just get epic levels of OP stuff, so you have to watch out. Did they change it so that you have to have an Epic ship? If bit, they should. Max TLTs will win you the game. It can be silly.
I prefer casual/thematic as its just fun. Also, I think T-65's are really good in epic. They are fast, sturdy, and hit hard. Ships with 2 attack die have a harder time vs reinforce action. Still 4 Ties can do well vs ships with less than 3 agility.
Ordnance is strong in epic. Ion Torps are really good for all targets. Assault can be nice. Plasma is good vs epic ships. Harpoons can be crazy.
Critical hits are crazy good vs epic ships, so anything that gives them can win you the game. Proton Torps are good. Managers, etc.
Minefield Mapper cab be great in epic.
Design your epic ship a certain way. CR-90 with Single Turbo Lasers that circle and fire (with boosting ability to stay out of arcs) can be really effective. Same with support Gozantis.