Title pretty much says it all; Would a deck without 5-cost characters be viable?

I am pretty much a Dragon player and I think I can manage a deck with no 5-cost characters at all, but would that be ‘doable’ against all/varied opponents?

Given the Voltron emphasis in Dragon right now, you're probably the best equipped to pull it off. I don't see Phoenix faring as well, maybe once the imperial cycle is done it's a possibility.

I think Scorpion can do it if you go for a more balanced MIL + POL Province victory deck. Shoju is overkill, the Scorpion don't need him to win POL conflicts. He does make great use of the new Policy Debate though... and dishonor is fun... so I wouldn't want to.

2 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

I think Scorpion can do it if you go for a more balanced MIL + POL Province victory deck. Shoju is overkill, the Scorpion don't need him to win POL conflicts. He does make great use of the new Policy Debate though... and dishonor is fun... so I wouldn't want to.

I throw away so many Shoju's. I wouldn't run him if I had more worthwhile 1-, 2-, and 3-cost characters. Sadly, the expansion packs aren't helping with that...

I think if I ran without the 5 cost characters it would allow me to rely more on my conflict characters. So often I let my dynasty deck do all the work. If nothing else it would make you adjust play styles which will cause you to make different decisions that you normally wouldn't. I support this experiment and will try to report my personal findings.

I prefer having the five coster abilities available to me, whether I use them or not. Yesterday I was able to use Togashi to copy Ikoma Ujiakis ability and use it to set up my victory on my next conflict. Some of their abilities you have to work or wait for, like Togashi and Altansarnai, while others are a little less reliant on setting up like Isawa Kaede. It may be worth trying to see what comes of it, though.

Absolutely. I don't run Altansarnai in my Unicorn Deck for example.

I run lion without toturi or ujiaki, and have played unicorn without altansarnai. Both viable decks i think.

I have considered dropping Hotaru as well. The big chars are too big a target for i can swim, noble, way of the crab etc plus are either not bought due to lack of fate to make the purchase worthwhile or 'dealt' with by the opposition in some cunning way. I think my ideal prices are 3 and 1. 3's the deck workhorses and 1 for help chars that I dont mind forcing the assasination.

Well, lets see:

Phoenix have very 'build around me' 5 costers; with their cardpool being somewhat unfocused without them I think they are probably the most likely to be run.

Lion probably doesn't strictly need them; at the same time they've got so many ways to abuse them I don't see why you wouldn't - Spiritcaller, Charge etc.

Crane and Scorpion both feel like they are big political beatsticks. They basically help you win Pol challenges, or help you get more out of them. I think you could certainly build decks without them. I haven't played Unicorn yet, but their champion seems similar; the main question there is whether they need the high Mil strength more than the other clans, or whether she's not worth the high cost.

Crab feels similar for Mil, though obviously Hisada also comes with an ability that does something outside of the challenge he is in. Again, I'm sure decks could be built without him.

Dragon likes their Voltrons, the question is whether their champion is the best Voltron they can play. I dislike Dragon, so I don't really know enough to have an opinion on that one.

Any deck that is running Charge should be including the characters that give you the most value, this even applies to Unicorn. Lion and Crab in particular as they also have ways to keep those characters in play when you cheat them out.

Until the card pool is deep enough that Charge is not as impactful, or there are cheaper characters that offer abilities that can make up for the raw stats that the 5 drops bring, there is no reason not to run them.

Lion is probably closest to being able to run a deck without their champ but if you're running Charge then passing on 6 military for 1 fate.........seems like a missed opportunity to me.

As a Scorpion player I can not imagine my deck without Shoju, while people have pointed out that players will often not defend their provinces when attacking with Shoju due to his ability an undefended province with his political attack is essentially a free break and a honor loss. I do not understand how players see him as "bad" or not "useful".

3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Any deck that is running Charge should be including the characters that give you the most value, this even applies to Unicorn. Lion and Crab in particular as they also have ways to keep those characters in play when you cheat them out.

Until the card pool is deep enough that Charge is not as impactful, or there are cheaper characters that offer abilities that can make up for the raw stats that the 5 drops bring, there is no reason not to run them.

Lion is probably closest to being able to run a deck without their champ but if you're running Charge then passing on 6 military for 1 fate.........seems like a missed opportunity to me.

I think Scorpion and Crane are most likely to play their decks without champs. Both clans are quite capable without the stat-balls their champions serve as - and as you said if you're going to run Charge (especially with hi jinks like FGG or Reprieve) you want the most expensive characters to cheat in. You can't charge to a POL conflict, and neither Hotaru and Shoju are not impressive MIL / charge targets.

2 hours ago, cforfar said:

As a Scorpion player I can not imagine my deck without Shoju, while people have pointed out that players will often not defend their provinces when attacking with Shoju due to his ability an undefended province with his political attack is essentially a free break and a honor loss. I do not understand how players see him as "bad" or not "useful".

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't useful, or that he is bad - I still believe he is one of the top champions in the game. The problem is that he is such a monster politically, but so are many other Scorpion characters. Sometimes Shoju will come up, but I'll already have such a board state (I have good POL strength, my opponent is going MIL into me) where Shoju isn't going to help even win more because I already have POL locked down.

The main factor is that I can only attack POL once, and my Opponent may not elect to attack me POL at all... This means too much POL can be a waste. (until there is a POL version of Captive Audience...)

3 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

I think Scorpion and Crane are most likely to play their decks without champs. Both clans are quite capable without the stat-balls their champions serve as - and as you said if you're going to run Charge (especially with hi jinks like FGG or Reprieve) you want the most expensive characters to cheat in. You can't charge to a POL conflict, and neither Hotaru and Shoju are not impressive MIL / charge targets.

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't useful, or that he is bad - I still believe he is one of the top champions in the game. The problem is that he is such a monster politically, but so are many other Scorpion characters. Sometimes Shoju will come up, but I'll already have such a board state (I have good POL strength, my opponent is going MIL into me) where Shoju isn't going to help even win more because I already have POL locked down.

The main factor is that I can only attack POL once, and my Opponent may not elect to attack me POL at all... This means too much POL can be a waste. (until there is a POL version of Captive Audience...)

I think finding the right balance of political and military characters for Scorpion is incredibly important. While Bayushi Shoju is incredible politically he needs to be balanced with cards such as Bayushi Yunako (4/2 for 4 fate and a great ability), Shosuro Miyako (3/2 for 3 fate), and we now have Bayushi Yojiro (3/1 for 3 fate and can nullify honor/dishonor statuses). Intermediate characters such as Yogo Outcast, Young Rumormonger and Favoured Niece are excellent in either MIL or POL. That is just the Dynasty deck alone, in the conflict deck, depending on what you splash, at minimum you have Adept of Shadows (2/2 for 2 fate) and Unassuming Yojimbo (3/1 for 3 fate and Covert) to choose from. Splashing crab provides some beefy military characters as well. It is definitely tough choosing the Dynasty characters though as we need to choose from Yogo Hiroue (0/4), Bayushi Shoju (3/7), Soshi Illusionist (1/3), Bayushi Liar (-/3), and Shosuro Actress (1/3) for political without going too heavy with it. I find my military is competitive with most clans and playing aggressively from the start can throw off your opponent who may expect a slower Scorpion game.

This thread is most concerning. Shoju for life.