I actually wrote out a long explaination of how this new ship is sooooo broken, but then I thought, “you’re either going to see it, or you’re an Imperial player.” ?

Just kidding. But this ship is seriously broken, as broken as the JumpMaster was in its own way. I’m hoping I’m not the only one who sees it.

For those who don’t see it, please review the two title cards and let me know what you think. We already got errata that stopped the rebels from doing what this ship will be able to do far better.

Link to original article.

lol

Dont get me wrong the gunboats going to be good, probably competitive, but any of the super jousters (talonbane, Poe, Vader, QuickDraw, Vessery) have the tools to deal with them appropriately. Will it be easy? No. Is it beatable? Yes.

It's a fixed-arc small ship with average Pilot Skill which either does maximum 1 damage, or has to telegraph its target in advance, and in either case leaves the opponent the chance to get out of the way via arc dodging or range control, or tank the hits on strong defence. Saying that this is comparable to taking up to 7 unstoppable damage from an A-SLAM'd Cluster Mine before you activate is laughable.

4 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

lol

Dont get me wrong the gunboats going to be good, probably competitive, but any of the super jousters (talonbane, Poe, Vader, QuickDraw, Vessery) have the tools to deal with them appropriately. Will it be easy? No. Is it beatable? Yes.

Even when they can come from out of range, attack with a missile or torpedoe and get three defense dice on their defense, then the following round slam back out of range?

”I think you overestimate their chances.” ~ the late great Grand Moff Tarken

Advanced Slam was just nerfed to stop Rebel bombing runs using slam, how is this not worse?

Take a look at:

Saturation Salvo 1-pt

After you perform an attack with a torpedo or missile secondary weapon that does not hit, each ship at range 1 of the defender with an agility value lower than the squad point cost of the torpedo or missile upgrade card, must roll 1 attack die and suffer any damage or critical damage rolled.

This makes missiles and torpedoes that miss into bombs. Exactly the thing the Advanced Slam nerf was to stop. I don’t think people are going to see how this ship combos until it’s on the table, but it doesn’t look good to me. And Talonbane and Poe can easily be affected by this kind of bomb. The only group that might be immune is Imperial (assuming they’re using cruise missiles or plasma torps).

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

It's a fixed-arc small ship with average Pilot Skill which either does maximum 1 damage, or has to telegraph its target in advance, and in either case leaves the opponent the chance to get out of the way via arc dodging or range control, or tank the hits on strong defence. Saying that this is comparable to taking up to 7 unstoppable damage from an A-SLAM'd Cluster Mine before you activate is laughable.

I admire your optimism and I hope I’m wrong, but I’m thinking the combos presented just in the expansion pack alone will make this prevalent in every top 4.

Guess we’ll have to wait and see. And even a telegraphed target can be killed, if there is nothing you can do about it (ie being out of range).

Lol no

Ss is one die roll for 50/50 chance at one damage max AFTER rolling (re firing at an in-arc target) ordnance AFTER everything else has activated

Clusters would go before you could do anything and hit on average for 2 damage + Sabine

SS isnt a bomb mechanically or even by the most generous of analogies. Also, it's pretty ******* awful

Crackshot HLCs will blow it out of the water

8 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Advanced Slam was just nerfed to stop Rebel bombing runs using slam, how is this not worse?

Take a look at:

Saturation Salvo 1-pt

After you perform an attack with a torpedo or missile secondary weapon that does not hit, each ship at range 1 of the defender with an agility value lower than the squad point cost of the torpedo or missile upgrade card, must roll 1 attack die and suffer any damage or critical damage rolled.

This makes missiles and torpedoes that miss into bombs. Exactly the thing the Advanced Slam nerf was to stop. I don’t think people are going to see how this ship combos until it’s on the table, but it doesn’t look good to me. And Talonbane and Poe can easily be affected by this kind of bomb. The only group that might be immune is Imperial (assuming they’re using cruise missiles or plasma torps).

Okay... I mean no offence, but I believe this is a case of inexperience causing a severe overreaction, because Saturation Salvo is one of the worst upgrades in recent memory.

Let's just go over all the ways in which it is bad: it chews up your Gunboat's most important upgrade slot, it requires you spend more points on a weapon to trigger it, it requires you setup an attack with this weapon, it requires that you miss said attack with this weapon, and your reward for all of this is a 50/50 chance to cause 1 damage to your target and maybe a couple of wingmen if they meet the agility condition. This when you could just take Crack Shot instead, use that to make sure your Harpoon gets through and cause guaranteed splash damage.

Bad card is bad and will not see play.

Perhaps you need help telling this:

from this:

Alpha class star wing != skipray blastboat

edit: pipped to the post by Darth Meanie

29 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Even when they can come from out of range, attack with a missile or torpedoe and get three defense dice on their defense, then the following round slam back out of range?

”I think you overestimate their chances.” ~ the late great Grand Moff Tarken

Advanced Slam was just nerfed to stop Rebel bombing runs using slam, how is this not worse?

Take a look at:

Saturation Salvo 1-pt

After you perform an attack with a torpedo or missile secondary weapon that does not hit, each ship at range 1 of the defender with an agility value lower than the squad point cost of the torpedo or missile upgrade card, must roll 1 attack die and suffer any damage or critical damage rolled.

This makes missiles and torpedoes that miss into bombs. Exactly the thing the Advanced Slam nerf was to stop. I don’t think people are going to see how this ship combos until it’s on the table, but it doesn’t look good to me. And Talonbane and Poe can easily be affected by this kind of bomb. The only group that might be immune is Imperial (assuming they’re using cruise missiles or plasma torps).

That joke of an ept is your whole argument for the gunboat being Op? The fact you have to handicap yourself to miss speaks volumes. Save yourself the trouble and run expertise and chips and run harpoons.

17 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Okay... I mean no offence, but I believe this is a case of inexperience causing a severe overreaction, because Saturation Salvo is one of the worst upgrades in recent memory.

Let's just go over all the ways in which it is bad: it chews up your Gunboat's most important upgrade slot, it requires you spend more points on a weapon to trigger it, it requires you setup an attack with this weapon, it requires that you miss said attack with this weapon, and your reward for all of this is a 50/50 chance to cause 1 damage to your target and maybe a couple of wingmen if they meet the agility condition. This when you could just take Crack Shot instead, use that to make sure your Harpoon gets through and cause guaranteed splash damage.

Bad card is bad and will not see play.

How could you not think “... I believe this is a case of inexperience causing a severe overreaction...”, would not be offensive?

Its not so much the Saturation Salvo, as it is going from out of range to a possible 5 damage attack, then out of range again the following turn. The very thing Imperial players have been saying Miranda has been doing to them, but was impossible (no fire on slams).

1 minute ago, FlyingAnchors said:

That joke of an ept is your whole argument for the gunboat being Op? The fact you have to handicap yourself to miss speaks volumes. Save yourself the trouble and run expertise and chips and run harpoons.

My original post was about the title cards.

2 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

That joke of an ept is your whole argument for the gunboat being Op? The fact you have to handicap yourself to miss speaks volumes. Save yourself the trouble and run expertise and chips and run harpoons.

Again, please read original post.

Just now, JediPartisan said:

Again, please read original post.

I see an absence of any coherent thought being applied to the application of certain title cards pertaining to an arc locked ship. The comparing of said ship to a large base that plays differently due to a better dial and higher Ps and a turreted dedicated slamming heavy bomber has caused me to believe that your assessment of said ship being worthy of a nerf pre-release is questionable and inaccurate.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

How could you not think “... I believe this is a case of inexperience causing a severe overreaction...”, would not be offensive?

Calling it as I see it. You're claiming everything in this pack is OP, when some of these things you're up in arms about have been largely written off as unplayable trash ( after actual science on them, I should add, as the Starwing's been seeing play on Vassal ever since the preview). It seems logical to assume that the cause of this is a lack of experience, at least with the ship in question.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

Its not so much the Saturation Salvo, as it is going from out of range to a possible 5 damage attack, then out of range again the following turn. The very thing Imperial players have been saying Miranda has been doing to them, but was impossible (no fire on slams).

You get a similar effect from any PS10+ alpha strike list, only they can PS-kill their targets and can close to pump more damage into the enemy at range 1 instead of bugging out.

It will also not be quite so easy for the Starwings to get out of range following their attack runs, as they will be pointed at the enemy to fire and will be often moving before the enemy when they try to make their escape. If the enemy can reposition or has a turret there may not be an escape avenue available at all.

Lots of people have played with the Gunboats on Vassal since the dial and upgrades were previewed. The Gunboat has some potential to be good, and maybe there's a way to crack it wide open, but it is not the OP craziness you're afraid it might be. Try it for yourself. They're fun, but they struggle to line up just the right shot and are not very durable. Miranda is a SLAMing, bombing, regenerating turret. I knew Miranda, sir, and Gunboats are no Miranda.

So, first of all, The Starwing (or Gunboat) is not the Blastboat, as @Darth Meanie and @gadwag have pointed out. Now, flying them together could be awesome.

Second of all, you're implying that SLAMing with the titles as the same as SLAM bombing, which it is not. SLAMing bombs + Sabine was undefendable damage with near perfect information on a good number of ships because of elements like moving before they did for really high PS or the flexibility of being able to choose a maneuver for the SLAM after someone has already moved. Now, there was a dice component of the most popular mine used (clusters), but it bypassed green dice and the target could be hit by multiple mines. And with Sabine, the minimum damage that could be done was one. Neither of the titles bypass green dice. Ordinance and cannons require to hits to do damage, so there are multiple rolls for chance and tokens to alter the outcome of the attack. The only way for the Gunboat to do unblockable damage is through Harpoons and/or Saturation Salvo. But, Harpoons must still be triggered, which requires a successful shot. And Saturation Salvo requires so much to go right for a 50/50 shot to maybe do damage that it is unlikely to be worth the point and opportunity cost.

Third of all, the majority of good builds I have seen for Gunboats don't actually use the SLAM firing feature of the titles. I believe @Biophysical has been experimenting with the Gunboats and been getting the best results from HLC gunboats, which do not get to SLAM and fire due to point cost. I know some of the players i chat with regularly have been getting similar results.

If these points do not quell your anxiety, then I suggest you follow @Incard 's advice. Try them out on Vassel, Table Top Simulator, or even proxy them on casual nights. Perhaps even play them against an unnerfed Bombing K-Wing for comparison. I believe you will find an interesting and solid ship rather than the OP mess you fear it is.

So I am alone in thinking it’s overpowered. Won’t be the last time probably, so I’ll only say this:

There has been a plethora of Sci-fi programs based around a ship that can come out of no where, attack, then leave again. The latest two would be “Dark Matter” and “Star Trek: Discovery” (yeah I know, it’s Star Trek and not a fan favourite). This ship is capable of precisely that.

And as far as arc dodging such a ship, you must have legendary abilities then, as the greater the distance the ship comes, the greater the possibilities of where it could land. Also taking into account the fact that it will do two maneuvers on the way in, and the second is determined as the ship moves.

Also, you seem to forget how important it is, to force your opponent to divide their fire. This ship is more than capable considering the above.

I wish you luck, but don’t say I didn’t warn you.

55 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Perhaps you need help telling this:

from this:

Huh. Guess so.

You're seeing something, and you're convinced - our words won't change your mind. Fly it. Try it out. Try to stomp all in your path with it. If you're right, soon everyone will be flying or countering the JediPartiBoats. I am skeptical, because I have flown it.

4 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

So I am alone in thinking it’s overpowered. Won’t be the last time probably, so I’ll only say this:

There has been a plethora of Sci-fi programs based around a ship that can come out of no where, attack, then leave again. The latest two would be “Dark Matter” and “Star Trek: Discovery” (yeah I know, it’s Star Trek and not a fan favourite). This ship is capable of precisely that.

And as far as arc dodging such a ship, you must have legendary abilities then, as the greater the distance the ship comes, the greater the possibilities of where it could land. Also taking into account the fact that it will do two maneuvers on the way in, and the second is determined as the ship moves.

Also, you seem to forget how important it is, to force your opponent to divide their fire. This ship is more than capable considering the above.

I wish you luck, but don’t say I didn’t warn you.

May I ask how many times you have flown the Gunboat?

I am really patting myself on the back for "JediPartiBoats". If Jedi here is a mad genius and he's right, I just hope the name catches on. I'd be happy to eat all the crow there is on this one so long as everyone is calling the list "JediPartiBoats". That said... sorry, but still nope.

Who is this infidel amongst our midst?

As much as it saddens me to admit it, there are many people out there who do not share our enthusiasm for the GUNBOAT... but I think that the people who don't really like it should at least be able to see that it's pretty well balanced, adds a new niche to the game, and probably won't break the game.

Kind of like how I feel about the Caligula Fighter. I never played Galaxies, and the ships from it seem bulky and ugly to me, but I can appreciate that the Caligula is at least pretty fair and balanced, and adds a new feel and mechanic to the game.

27 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

As much as it saddens me to admit it, there are many people out there who do not share our enthusiasm for the GUNBOAT... but I think that the people who don't really like it should at least be able to see that it's pretty well balanced, adds a new niche to the game, and probably won't break the game.

Kind of like how I feel about the Caligula Fighter. I never played Galaxies, and the ships from it seem bulky and ugly to me, but I can appreciate that the Caligula is at least pretty fair and balanced, and adds a new feel and mechanic to the game.

I like the Kimo because I had one in the FFG RPG But that's about it