Given that both the astromech and Snap's ability trigger as free actions upon completion of maneuver, can you choose to execute them in whatever order you choose, so long as all conditions are met?

Example 1: Execute speed 2, 3, or 4 maneuver, no enemy in arc. Barrel roll with FAA first, then boost with Snap's ability

Example 2: Execute speed 2, 3, or 4 maneuver with enemy in arc. Boost using Snap's ability so enemy is out of arc, then barrel roll using FAA.

Are both ways legal?

#1 is definitely legal. I can't remember off the top of my head if we know whether "after X, if Y, do Z" abilities check their condition as part of the timing window, but I'm inclined to think #2 would work unless somebody can come up with a counterexample.

And for a hypothetical #3: unfortunately FAA cares about whether you overlapped, not just whether you're currently touching, so if you bump a friendly you couldn't barrel roll out of the way to give Snap room to boost.

For reference:

Hrm.

I'm finding irksome things in this either way. I want to go back to mathematics and order of operations, and put brackets around some part of "after X, if Y, do Z"--either A: "(after X, if Y), do Z" or B: "after X, (if Y, do Z)".

Under A "(after X, if Y), do Z", you'd need to have met the restrictions of FAA after executing the maneuver. In which case, scenario 2 wouldn't work, but it might open up a new scenario where if you met the conditions initially, after you Snap boost, you'd still be able to FAA barrel roll even if the boost gave you arc. That irks me. Maybe the verb tense differences between "did not overlap" and "are no enemy ships" are different enough to fix that. "Did not" is past tense, and only cares about what happened when you performed the maneuver, while "are" is present tense, and thus continually checking arc when you want to perform your action.

Under B "after X, (if Y, do Z)", you need to meet the restrictions when you want to barrel roll. That's pretty much the scenario 2 as written; you'd need to Snap-Boost your arc away in order to barrel roll with FAA. That kind of irks me since you didn't meet the conditions after the trigger, but only after a different action based on the original trigger.

The more I think about it, I'm leaning towards the "B" timing, thinking of things like HoR Millennium Falcon with Kanan Jarrus. There isn't stress for Kanan to remove after the initial trigger of performing a white maneuver, the stress is only there after you've done the flip from the title.

*Edit* I find @sharrrp convincing below (Gunner & IG-88D crew), and this leans me more towards "(after X, if Y), do Z" *E*

*Edit Again* I'm all in the air. I think the basic structure of "after X, if Y, do Z" needs to be made explicit from FFG in a FAQ. *E.A.*

//

On an unrelated note, I only now realized it looks like Snap can boost you off an Asteroid if you flew there fast enough, so long as the boost template doesn't overlap, etc. Nifty.

As both trigger at the 'after executing a maneuver' step, I think you would be able to chose which went first.

As for snap on a debris, he would have to have primed thrusters to perform the boost as the stress is applied before you finish executing the maneuver.

2 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

As both trigger at the 'after executing a maneuver' step, I think you would be able to chose which went first.

As for snap on a debris, he would have to have primed thrusters to perform the boost as the stress is applied before you finish executing the maneuver.

I think it's less about order between FAA and Snap, and more about the no-enemies-in-arc restriction on FAA.

Does it matter after the move, or does it matter when you attempt to boost or barrel roll. Snap can put distance between those things. I lean towards FAA matters when you attempt to perform the action (if only because of the present-tense verb "are"). At least for myself, I don't think you can FAA barrel roll if a Snap Boost give you arc first. Likewise, if your move initially did give you arc, but Snap's boost moves you to a position without arc, you could FAA barrel roll.

RE: Snap/Debris. No doubt. Snap/Asteroid is the really nifty one to me, since asteroids prevent you from attacking. There aren't many things in this game which can get you off a rock the turn you land on it.

So just to clarify, he can't get off of debris without Primed Thrusters, but with FAA, you can use it to get off the asteroid if you meet the not in arc requirements? Wouldn't that count as taking an action? (which hitting the asteroid limits?)

For reference:
" Asteroid : The ship must skip its "Perform Action" step this round. After skipping the "Perform Action" step, it rolls one attack die. On a Hit result, the ship suffers one damage; on a Crit result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks."

• A ship can still perform free actions even if it moved through or overlapped an obstacle, as long as the ship is not stressed.

//

With Flight Assist Astromech, the cards specifically says that you only get the action if you didn't overlap an obstacle.

Snap's own ability doesn't have that stipulation, however. Asteroids prevent you from taking your normal action, but Asteroids don't prevent you from performing free actions, if you're given them from some source. A ship with Coordinate could allow a TIE Fighter on an Asteroid to Barrel Roll off it, for example. In the case of Snap, if he moved fast enough, and isn't touching another ship, he can attempt to perform a Boost. So long as the template and final position of ship after the boost don't overlap another ship or obstacle, and so long as Snap isn't stressed (or have too much stress for Primed Thrusters), he'd be able to perform a boost. Boosting off a rock with Snap wouldn't allow Flight Assist Astromech to perform a barrel roll, regardless of arc, since FAA specifically says "if you did not overlap."

OP’s question is an FAQ submission it seems. But since both happen at same time and you get to choose which happens first, it seems to me that snap can boost and then FAA can let him BR if he’s no longer in arc after the boost.

This is kind of a weird interaction. Since they both trigger, "After a maneuver" then I think you would need to check FAA's arc restriction BEFORE using Snaps boost ability and then after performing the boost you can decide at that point whether to actually perform the barrel roll or not.

So if you do NOT have someone in arc, then boost and now you do, you can still do the barrel roll.

Conversely, if you DO have someone in arc, then boost and now you don't, you can NOT do the barrel roll.

The trigger, and thus restriction check, happens after the maneuver is completed but before any other abilities are resolved.

This would he a similar ruling to the IG Crew/Gunner combo. In that one you make your initial attack and if it misses both abilities trigger. Then even if IG hits you still resolve Gunner because the restriction check (missing on attack) happened before IG resolved.

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

This is kind of a weird interaction. Since they both trigger, "After a maneuver" then I think you would need to check FAA's arc restriction BEFORE using Snaps boost ability and then after performing the boost you can decide at that point whether to actually perform the barrel roll or not.

So if you do NOT have someone in arc, then boost and now you do, you can still do the barrel roll.

Conversely, if you DO have someone in arc, then boost and now you don't, you can NOT do the barrel roll.

The trigger, and thus restriction check, happens after the maneuver is completed but before any other abilities are resolved.

This would he a similar ruling to the IG Crew/Gunner combo. In that one you make your initial attack and if it misses both abilities trigger. Then even if IG hits you still resolve Gunner because the restriction check (missing on attack) happened before IG resolved.

I find this highly convincing.

I also agree with what @sharrrp said. Boost and Barrel Roll aren't maneuvers as such, so the check for if Flight Assist Astromech could be used would have to be done after a ship performs the maneuver on it's dial, but before any Boost/Barrel Roll actions were taken.

I concur. The arc check is done when you complete the move, not when you do the action.

I'm thinking about the co-implications of Kanan and the HoR Millennium Falcon title to this question.

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Consider the scenario of an already-stressed YT-1300 taking a white 3-bank, triggering Kanan to remove the stress, then using MF to rotate the ship 180 degrees. Is this legal? I'd previously had thought yes, but perhaps not given how the consensus seems to be shaping up on FAA. The restrictions against FAA's ship having arc and against the MF having stress look pretty much the same to me.

Good question. It is an analogous case, certainly.

Not to throw a spanner in the works, but it seems like we're going about this backwards. We're trying to figure out FAA, then asking what that does to this existing interaction, when really we should be looking at that existing interaction and asking what it tells us to do with FAA. Which would imply you don't check the arc & range conditions until you begin resolving the card, because that's how the HotR Falcon title behaves.

While @sharrrp makes a good argument, I'm pretty sure Snap/FAA will work like Kanan/Falcon II, and there's not even any conflict with the IG-B/Gunner ruling!

The trigger is the first clause, the rest just tells you how to resolve it. So our triggers are:

FAA : "After you execute a maneuver,"
"Snap" : "After you execute a 2-, 3-, or 4-speed maneuver,"
Falcon II : "After you execute a 3-speed bank maneuver,"
Kanan : "Once per round, after a friendly ship at Range 1-2 executes a white maneuver,"
IG88-B : "Once per round, after you perform an attack that does not hit,"
Gunner : "After you perform an attack that does not hit,"

So there you have it. Everyone gets to use their abilities to the fullest.

On 11/18/2017 at 9:35 AM, sharrrp said:

This would he a similar ruling to the IG Crew/Gunner combo. In that one you make your initial attack and if it misses both abilities trigger. Then even if IG hits you still resolve Gunner because the restriction check (missing on attack) happened before IG resolved.

Is this right? I know there was a thread explaining that interaction but I thought it said you couldn't do it. Any chance you have the link to that thread?

It's in the FAQ now that it works.

48 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Is this right? I know there was a thread explaining that interaction but I thought it said you couldn't do it. Any chance you have the link to that thread?

It's in the FAQ:

Quote

If an attacking ship is equipped with both Gunner and IG-88D and there is a friendly IG-88B, and the attack misses, the attacking ship can then attack with a [Cannon] secondary weapon using the effect of IG-88B and then attack with the primary weapon using the effect of Gunner. See "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 8.

It is important to separate triggers from conditions. Once a trigger happens, you can keep reacting to it until you decline to react to it. However, the conditions attached are checked when the ability is played. As such, I believe the connection being made to the IG-88/Gunner ruling is a total red herring: that combo works because there are no conditions beyond the trigger, so when the 'miss' trigger happens then both abilities an fire off sequentially.

However, Snap/F-A Astromech have the same trigger but different conditions. When Snap performs a 2-, 3-, or 4-speed manoeuvre, it will open the trigger window for both abilities but each will separately check the conditions necessary to activate it. If you move and have a target in arc, you can't activate F-A Astro but you can activate Snap's pilot ability. After boosting, you could activate F-A Astro if you don't have a ship in arc upon triggering the ability (having the trigger window open is not the same as triggering). Conversely, if you moved and had nothing in arc until you boosted, then you could have used F-A Astro before boosting, but could not use it after.

This is entirely consistent with the Falcon/Kanan ruling, as well.

The point is to separate trigger from additional conditions, just as ObiWonka said above.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's in the FAQ now that it works.

Thanks!

It's becoming harder and harder to keep these things straight.

2 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

It's in the FAQ:

It is important to separate triggers from conditions. Once a trigger happens, you can keep reacting to it until you decline to react to it. However, the conditions attached are checked when the ability is played. As such, I believe the connection being made to the IG-88/Gunner ruling is a total red herring: that combo works because there are no conditions beyond the trigger, so when the 'miss' trigger happens then both abilities an fire off sequentially.

However, Snap/F-A Astromech have the same trigger but different conditions. When Snap performs a 2-, 3-, or 4-speed manoeuvre, it will open the trigger window for both abilities but each will separately check the conditions necessary to activate it. If you move and have a target in arc, you can't activate F-A Astro but you can activate Snap's pilot ability. After boosting, you could activate F-A Astro if you don't have a ship in arc upon triggering the ability (having the trigger window open is not the same as triggering). Conversely, if you moved and had nothing in arc until you boosted, then you could have used F-A Astro before boosting, but could not use it after.

This is entirely consistent with the Falcon/Kanan ruling, as well.

The point is to separate trigger from additional conditions, just as ObiWonka said above.

Thanks! This helps a lot.

So we’re clear:

1) if after a 2+maneuver, the FAA equipped Snap has no enemies in arc R1-3, he can BR or boost for FAA. If he chose BR, then he could also boost using his ability.

2) same situation as above but he could chose to boost using his ability. If after boost no enemies is arc he can barrel roll using FAA.

3) After 2+ move places him with enemies in arc R1-3, He could boost using his ability, if the boost took his enemies out of arc, he could also barrel roll using FAA

or is the trigger “after maneuver” and that if he had no enemies in arc R1-3, he could boost using his ability placing him with enemies in arc at R1-3 BUT because the maneuver ended with him out of arc of enemies R1-3, he could still barrel roll?

1, 2, and 3 are all correct, as is the trigger simply being "after maneuver".

Here's a "Snap"/FAA flow-chart:

1) Execute 2-, 3-, or 4-speed maneuver.
2) "Snap" is triggered and gets ready to do his thing. FAA is triggered and gets ready to do her thing. Proceed to #3 or #4.
3) If there are enemies in arc (at R1-3) FAA can't do anything, so"Snap" can do a free boost first.
3a) If there are still enemies in arc, FAA does nothing. Go to #5.
3b) If there are no enemies in arc, FAA can do a barrel roll . Go to #5.
4) If there are no enemies in arc, you may do #3, or:
4a) FAA can do a barrel roll, then "Snap" can do a boost. Go to #5.
4b) FAA can do a boost, "Snap" does nothing because you can't boost twice in a round. Go to #5.
5) Perform an action (remember no second boost!).

Just to make this one even more insane, what if we give Snap this:

"Snap" Wexley (28)
Lightning Reflexes (1)
Flight-Assist Astromech (1)
Primed Thrusters (1)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Total: 31

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Would having Primed Thrusters still allow Snap to do the FAA/pilot ability of the boost/barrel roll with the LR triggering anywhere in the mix to flip the 180-degrees? I'm thinking it would but I'm biased.

Lightning Reflexes is "After you execute a white or green maneuver on your dial," which is (essentially) the same trigger as "Snap" and FAA (for certain maneuvers), so yes, you could execute the three in any order you like, thanks in part to Primed Thrusters.