Sidewinders (99)

Black Sun Assassin (33) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2), •Virago (1), Fire Control System (2)

Black Sun Assassin (33) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2), •Virago (1), Fire Control System (2)

Black Sun Assassin (33) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2), •Virago (1), Fire Control System (2)

so here’s the base list. I’ve played around with adding Thweek (frees up 3 points) and am trying to figure out what other Viper Aces to drop in... I’ve also thought about Guri with PRS and Ion Dischargers... have Xizor pass off hits to her and then have her regen shields... also toying with VI Xizor, but feel like I need the PTL more? And then, of course, every list is 101 points...

Help? Btw: not looking to do anything other than 3 Vipers, so any alternate ships will be ignored (thanks but no thanks).

Virago title is like the highlander: there can be only one.

26 minutes ago, thebrettski said:

Virago title is like the highlander: there can be only one.

I know, just putting down base points in my head for each spot and I just hit copy twice on the first ship... but yeah, guess that makes no sense if you’re not playing around on my squad builder app... sry for the confusion

Edit: also brings up another conundrum, who makes best use of Virago?

You're looking for 3 Vipers? Have I got three Vipers for you:

Thweek

SV Mk. II

AT

Guri

SV Mk. II

AT

PTL

Virago

FCS

Dalan Oberos

SV Mk. II

AT

VI

Torpedoes to season.

All this being said, I don't put much stock in SVs. I don't think they can easily get the mods they need to survive and also deal damage.

I have been flying a *lot* of 'Vipers in the past few weeks. I've been trying exactly as you are to figure out who to make the Virago Ace. And have determined no more satisfying answer than, "It depends which one you like best." They are all hampered, even shackled, by their middling PS - except for Shadowing Tweek, who is scuttled by his lack of an EPT slot.

I'm planning on trying two Assassins and Guri tonight at the FLGS. No Virago, all three with Autothrusters, MK.2, and Predator. Season in some torpedoes to use up points. Rather than trying to determine who is the ace, and who therefore wears the bullseye, make them all more or less equally capable. As with any 'Viper-centric list, piloting ability will be the key to winning or losing. And of course dice. Goddamn dice.

And that's my best answer. They're good - roughly equivalent to E-Wings and TIE Advanceds. But how good are those, right? I love them, but they're still breaking my heart n a regular basis.

37 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I have been flying a *lot* of 'Vipers in the past few weeks. I've been trying exactly as you are to figure out who to make the Virago Ace. And have determined no more satisfying answer than, "It depends which one you like best."

I've come up with some guidelines at least... There's a few list combinations where the Virago Choice makes a little more sense

Consider, Guri w Mindlink, Fen w Mindlink, Thweek. In this list, If you want to use glitterstim for a torpedo on Guri or Thweek - it would Stress Fen on Guri, but not on Thweek. That's a pretty base use for the illicit virago offers, but it suggests that a good rule of thumb is to choose Virago for the fighter role in the list... As well as what upgrades you will add with Virago...

Do you want simmilar action economy across your fighters?
Virago adds action efficiency through FCS, much of the time this is going to raise our damage output. In the above mentioned list - Guri and Fen have plenty of action economy from attani + guri's ability , thrusters or pulsed ray shield and protectorate title. Placing Virago on Thweek (above) allows him to have that action efficiency coming from FCS and helps keep each fighter in the list to 2 actions a turn when not getting shot. That keeps damage potential up across the board.

do you want a super fighter with a billion actions?
Toss it on Guri, FCS + Free focus + maneuvering actions - Guri is a beast, and a decent blocker, toss expertise on Guri and you have free rerolls, focus for defense, focus for attack and a positioning action. Other ships lose out on hyper efficiency, but are probably ignored while the opponent tries to vaporize Guri.

Do you want a super defensive fighter?
Virago gives us Glitterstim or Cloak + sensor Jammer, at 3 agi, SJ makes for a harder target to hit. This option is going to lower your possible attack power - so it's not a great choice on the no EPT pilots. Not really good on Xizor - who already has extra defenses, that ship needs attack power!

Do you want a super maneuverable Ace?
Inertial Dampeners and Advanced sensors ... you can move all over the place - you want this on higher p.s. - so Dalan or Thweek (P.S) .

Do you want a maneuverable blocker?
As above, ID and Adv Sensors - but you want this on LOWER p.s. - so Thweek (Mimic) or Guri (Free focus from the block as well!) (You can use enhanced scopes, but.... against low p.s. stuff, thweek or guri are moved into the ace categorywithout them! so , no don't do it)

Do you want a high p.s. Alpha strike?
Glitterstim and Thweek and Xizor are your high p.s. options - and here your system is open to configure the role what you want for post torpedo land...


So - If we look at these answers - Most of the time the answer is Guri, hands down. Some of the time Thweek. Rarely, Dalan. Almost never - Xizor. And if you're taking a black sun assasin, you're probably trying to save points anyway.

All right. Another run at triple 'Vipers, this time featuring none with Virago. And they are still so damnably squishy. Went up against a very experienced QD/Vader/Tomax player. And it was a close game - the 'Viper is so squirrely and can hit pretty hard. But it folds like origami, and with the middling PS, I never did manage to get a torpedo shot off. So.

Thweek is fun, but I think in a list with three 'Vipers he is too much of a loose cannon. A Predator-toting Assassin just hits harder and more reliably. But I think a fat Guri, with a nice big target painted on her, gets more mileage than a sprinkling of torpedoes. Unless you come up against Kanan/Lowhrrick. @Ravncat's analysis above is pretty spot-on.

I think I will be trying this again, with some flavor of Guri in the Virago. Because three StarVipers dancing across the table is a thing of glorious beauty.

On 17/11/2017 at 0:28 AM, Kleeg005 said:

I have been flying a *lot* of 'Vipers in the past few weeks. I've been trying exactly as you are to figure out who to make the Virago Ace. And have determined no more satisfying answer than, "It depends which one you like best." They are all hampered, even shackled, by their middling PS - except for Shadowing Tweek, who is scuttled by his lack of an EPT slot.

I'm planning on trying two Assassins and Guri tonight at the FLGS. No Virago, all three with Autothrusters, MK.2, and Predator. Season in some torpedoes to use up points. Rather than trying to determine who is the ace, and who therefore wears the bullseye, make them all more or less equally capable. As with any 'Viper-centric list, piloting ability will be the key to winning or losing. And of course dice. Goddamn dice.

And that's my best answer. They're good - roughly equivalent to E-Wings and TIE Advanceds. But how good are those, right? I love them, but they're still breaking my heart n a regular basis.

this, so much this. I flew three in different configs yesterday. they can hang for sure, and they pull a few super nice tricks every game. but they just can't reliably beat old lists flown by good players. Sadly. I pray for a super build to pop up.

1 hour ago, Scoundrel said:

this, so much this. I flew three in different configs yesterday. they can hang for sure, and they pull a few super nice tricks every game. but they just can't reliably beat old lists flown by good players. Sadly. I pray for a super build to pop up.

I don’t think there will be a super build showing up for this one. They have topline repositioning without high PS to support it making them totally dominate. I think they will be tourney worthy in the hands of a few folks who really put the time in to learn the list.

Sidewinders (100)

•Guri (37) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Pulsed Ray Shield (2), •Virago (1), Fire Control System (2), Ion Dischargers (2)

•Prince Xizor (33) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2)

Black Sun Assassin (30) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2)

best I’ve come up with to this point

Still conflicted about switching Xizor and Guri title load and/or dropping in Thweek and seismics instead of BSA...

So, I ran Thweek Guri Fen this weekend and came out losing only 1 shield and taking a structural damage crit on Fen, 600 MoV , 3 games only, (Using newest FAQ) mini-mini tournament as many people were busy.

The list was 97 points.

Fen, Title, Mindlink, Thrusters
Guri, Viper MkII, Mindlink, Thrusters
Thweek, Viper MkII, Virago, FCS, Glitterstim, Plasma Torpedos, Autothrusters.

They all get action economy, they all play on positioning - Fen goes way out and around, while guri and thweek approach straight on and from the opposite flank to Fen, with the abilities to abort approach and run with the barrel roll, letting the two flank approach fall on the opponent.

Thweek had some chances to fire his torp, but saved them for a better target - and never needed them. I could'Ve bid 6... Or lost the bid and equipped advanced protons, which would've been more useful with FCS... The best thing I could'Ve done was move the torps to Fen Rau. And with no-one having an initiative bid of any kind, i could've tried Ion torps. Fen gets TL, guri gives focus - BAM.

In these games, autothrusters never saved damage, it triggered, but there were already enough evades - granted, given dice, this means they would've been useful on worse rolls, but im seriously thinking pulsed ray shield might be useful on guri - esp since she is often in arc and in close range. I ran it on some lowly kihraxz cartel grunts, and it worked pretty well.


Game 1, vs. Maarek steel, Omega ACE, Inquisitor.
Game 2, vs Miranda and Nym.
Game 3, vs Thomax, Howlrunner, Omega Leader, Chaser, Academy.

The Final game, my approach frustrated the opponent and he decided to try to outfly my trap, hoping i'd close in faster than I did, He got maybe 2 shots during that game. his round 1 game against the miranda nym player was a really neat game to watch though - I'd finished my first match off in 15 minutes.

Each game had some pretty tempting mimic targets - Miranda (Shield regen or power shot!), Omega ace (W FCS = trigger on 3 attack ship every turn?) , Omega Leader or Howlrunner... In no game did I use Mimic. I shadowed in each game, and had the bid no matter what. The P.S. bonus was to powerful for the viper movement. So - here's the thweek thing... Xizor is p.s. 8, costs 28 , Thweek is 25 (With Titles on both) I spend 3 points on an initiative bid with Thweek so he could just be the high pilot skill and I could move last with him. So for the same cost - I could just have a flat out p.s 9 xizor (adaptability) w no point bid... and in a lot of cases move last - for one more point, I can run p.s. 10 xizor. Or i can run p.s. 8 xizor with an EPT. He'd be as strong or stronger than Thweek, maybe. The real difference is that Thweek's shadow ability basically says You gain initiative, that's probably important enough to keep Thweek + Bid. Thweek definitely needs punching power though, he wants to reposition a lot, so FCS is probably necessary on a competitive Thweek - necessitating the Virago title. Also, Glitterstim on Thweek was a nice trick with the other two ships in the group having mindlink, Thweek walked into that swarm and said - hey, remember countermeasures stim dengar? I've got 3 agility too... good luck!

So - if we want two high p.s. vipers, Thweek + Xizor seems good.

Anyway, Guri's ability let her get into the battle, but didn't go off as often as usual due to bomb threats, and not wanting to get annihilated by swarms. So as a mindlink viper to power fen, she's pretty good. I'd probably give up on 3 vipers, even This list was tricky to play given the fragility - 2 vipers and something that can take some punishment, is probably a better competitive avenue. 3 vipers can totally be nice Kit Tournament material though.

5 hours ago, Lobokai said:

Sidewinders (100)

•Guri (37) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Pulsed Ray Shield (2), •Virago (1), Fire Control System (2), Ion Dischargers (2)

•Prince Xizor (33) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2)

Black Sun Assassin (30) - StarViper
Push The Limit (3), StarViper Mk.II (-3), Autothrusters (2)

best I’ve come up with to this point

Still conflicted about switching Xizor and Guri title load and/or dropping in Thweek and seismics instead of BSA...

PTL really doesn't work well on the star vipers, without adv sensors - they don't like stress, even though the barrel roll gets them part way.

9 hours ago, Ravncat said:

PTL really doesn't work well on the star vipers, without adv sensors - they don't like stress, even though the barrel roll gets them part way.

Agreed, I'd say Predator/Expertise is probably better (or maybe intensity on Guri), giving you the attack modification without the stress.

Intensity on Guri is The Best Thing.

Especially if you can give her Virago so she can get full mods and Glitterstim to regen Intensity on a round where she's being focussed.