Playing the IP in our HOTE campaign, I just want to get some thoughts on what people think of the AT-DP. I dropped one in our most recent mission - (the second side mission, Viper's Den) and it seems to be the one thing they point back to when feeling like the game is imbalanced. Granted, I put the Unnatural Abilities class card on the deployment but I don't think that had much bearing on the outcome since they only attacked it twice before the mission ended (granted they did 0 damage instead of maybe 4-5 damage - which is demoralizing I'm sure). The general feeling from their perspective is that it is undercosted for how much damage it is able to dish out and how durable it is - in two attacks I think I did 12 damage total (used one damage power token) against a black die which seems to be close to what I would expect.

What has been your general experience with the new vehicle? I like that there is a massive vehicle I would actually consider bringing in an open group but is it too strong for the cost?

Some HotE spoiler

Otherwise I did not have the "chance" (depends on which side you are I guess) to see the AT-DP deployed has an open group. From the Imp player point of view it does seem to be worth the 9 threat cost. From the rebel point of view, what's bad is that once you defeat the AT-DP, it can be deployed again!

I suspect though that the AT-DP might not last very long toward the end of the campaign compared to an early-campaign appearance.

I've fought and killed it twice and yes, it's probably a bit undercosted.

The extra block is problematic for some groups, making groups with many weak attacks pretty ineffectual against it. I was able to stack things like focus, J4X and power tokens to do 9 damage hits to chop it down very quickly, but characters with weaker B+G will often be spending actions to only get 1 point through defense.

That isn't entirely a bad thing as it promotes having a heavy hitter in a party, something that wasn't much support for before, but it will punish unprepared groups.

The damage on it is pretty high too, and that has a host of problems. Considering how rarely the Rebels get wounded out and how often that is an Imperial win condition, maybe it isn't terrible for a 9 point card.

When I fought them, they didn't gain much benefit from the Imperial class cards. I think with a good set of cards it could be really obnoxious.

If this is the same case as mentioned in Discord I want to correct one misunderstanding about rules that may have gotten the rebels unnecessarily discouraged:

A figure does not need to end movement to escape . So, in Viper's Den using AT-DP to block the entrance would cost the rebels only one extra movement point.

In addition, with Tech Superiority Viper's Den should be pretty easy (guaranteed) win for imperials with the right strategy. So, it's not a good mission to consider AT-DP balance.

Overall, Speed 3 balances the AT-DP very well. AT-ST is terribly overcosted even for the campaign.

Mid-campaign when there's enough threat to use AT-DP, without other buffs it takes rebels 3 or 4 attacks to finish (especially figures with natural access to Pierce in addition to mods like Plasma Cell), and then it takes 9 threat to deploy again. Also, losing Charge Generators is a very big hindrance to its attack consistency. And it's only one figure.

The AT-DP is very strong. Using the Reactive Defenses deck, I gave the AT-DP +1 dmg & +1 dmg per attack via Targeting sensors and the AT-DP wounded Gaarkhan from scratch.

It is the first unit with assault that is good, and yeah, it probably is undercosted.

But for me, the jury is out if it really skews a campaign mission.

1 hour ago, a1bert said:

If this is the same case as mentioned in Discord I want to correct one misunderstanding about rules that may have gotten the rebels unnecessarily discouraged:

A figure does not need to end movement to escape . So, in Viper's Den using AT-DP to block the entrance would cost the rebels only one extra movement point.

Although this did not come up, it's a good clarification.

1 hour ago, a1bert said:

In addition, with Tech Superiority Viper's Den should be pretty easy (guaranteed) win for imperials with the right strategy. So, it's not a good mission to consider AT-DP balance.

Overall, Speed 3 balances the AT-DP very well. AT-ST is terribly overcosted even for the campaign.

Mid-campaign when there's enough threat to use AT-DP, without other buffs it takes rebels 3 or 4 attacks to finish (especially figures with natural access to Pierce in addition to mods like Plasma Cell), and then it takes 9 threat to deploy again. Also, losing Charge Generators is a very big hindrance to its attack consistency. And it's only one figure.

Great points, just trying to talk my Rebels off the ledge regarding this deployment

4 minutes ago, machfalcon said:

Great points, just trying to talk my Rebels off the ledge regarding this deployment

It might be kind of cool to make it a terrifying entry in one mission during the early campaign, then bring it back late when they can drop it fairly easy. Make it a satisfying accomplishment.

Other posters are mentioning what they put on the AT-DP, but I would point out that timing is also going to be a factor on dealing with it. Early in the campaigns, before the players get access to weapons, skills, etc., its going to be very difficult to deal with the AT-DP because they simply don't have the resources for it. Later in the campaign would be a different story, however. Some successful missions, some extra loot crates, and good dice rolls, and the fight would have a different outcome.
I know that at the end of my core campaign, the players probably would have dropped the AT-DP without breaking stride due to all the gear and skills they had.

I personally have exactly 1 experience with the AT-DP and the Speed 3 "fault" is such a terrible disadvantage that it wasn't much of a threat mid-HotE...

6 hours ago, angelman2 said:

I personally have exactly 1 experience with the AT-DP and the Speed 3 "fault" is such a terrible disadvantage that it wasn't much of a threat mid-HotE...

Officers are only 2 points...

I think unbuffed ATDP is fine and a very strong weapon in the Imperial arsenal if the map allows for it. However with certain buffs, it definitely is on the tipping point of OP.

It reminds me a lot of RG 1.0. It is just extremely good for it's cost in any situation you can field them. It is nearly impossible to remove in 1 activation, which means you are for certain getting 2x 3 dice attack back to counter. With additional buffs (Unnatural abilities being probably the strongest), it can become overwhelming if the Map allows for good placement. So in that regard, it is swingy since it is based on Map and deployment points, which is not well balanced. I am disappointed that FFG didn't make a campaign version of this card (it should have awkward or no "assault" in campaign)

I would hesitate to use it if I was winning as IP or against new Rebels. However if I was losing/against veteran players/buffed up rebels late game, I would bring it every opportunity I could to give the rebels a challenge

I wouldn't say Viper's Den is the best mission to decide a unit's balance. It's kind of already broken, a bit.

Also I just realized you are the IP the rebel player was referring to in BoardWars Discord

From what I've seen of your capabilities on PBF, I think you are a much better player than the Rebels. I would probably cut them some slack

3 minutes ago, frotes said:

Also I just realized you are the IP the rebel player was referring to in BoardWars Discord

From what I've seen of your capabilities on PBF, I think you are a much better player than the Rebels. I would probably cut them some slack

Haha, I'm famous now

In another campaign where my players don't want me to hold back, one of them called me the Bobby Fischer of Imperial Assault - I think that's a bit of an exaggeration but I'll take the compliment. Better not let it go to my head...

I do appreciate the discussion here. It's hard to balance keeping the game fun for the Rebels, keeping it fun for me, and keeping it competitive. I'm a min-maxer at heart so I enjoy trying to figure out the optimal open groups to bring to each mission, the best activation order, how I can increase my chances to win the mission with each decision, etc. In the campaign where my players want to play on "Medium difficulty", they are all having a great time but I find I prefer playing the other campaigns where there is no holding back.

I'm also similar and it can be hard to "Sandbag" your play, lest it makes it less fun for you.

The way I've done it in my IRL Group is by implementing house rules that help the losing side. Also possibly picking weaker class decks that I'm still interested in, not playing all my agenda cards, bringing some good open groups but not all. It can be a fun challenge to do well with some off the wall open groups (as long as they aren't ridiculous overpriced)

At least on PBF, I can go more all out knowing the players are good/have a lot more time and resources to analyze the situation. I still have several house rules that generally favor the Rebels but also create a more fun/varied campaign experience

Also in this situation, I think it's the combination of Unnatural abilities and ATDP that will make it hard to handle in the campaign. I agreed with Jeppe on that unnatural abilities should have also had a "non-massive" clause to it's restriction. Perhaps that could be a way to handle your particular situation

13 hours ago, frotes said:

It is nearly impossible to remove in 1 activation, which means you are for certain getting 2x 3 dice attack back to counter.

Oh no, imagine an Imperial player being able to deploy a unit and know he actually gets to attack with it! How incredibly OP!

Seriously though, it can be quite frustrating as the IP to have all your units removed before you get to attack. And it's not really in the spirit of the game to have a bunch of Rebels effortlessly defeating all the Imperial troops that stand in their path - it starts to feel like the Imperials are the plucky underdogs facing overwhelming odds. So it's nice to have something the Rebels are actually afraid of for once

It is true though that, like Nexus and Hired Guns in some circumstances and with some buffs, if you want to go a little easier on the Rebels, you can avoid bringing it.

Attack once, sure but 2x attacks is a lot. Also I pretty much exclusively play IP and I'm saying it is probably too strong of a figure unless your Rebels are also min/maxing

4 hours ago, frotes said:

Attack once, sure but 2x attacks is a lot. Also I pretty much exclusively play IP and I'm saying it is probably too strong of a figure unless your Rebels are also min/maxing

Wait, do your Rebels not min/max?

10 hours ago, machfalcon said:

Wait, do your Rebels not min/max?

Which is the meaning of "min/max"? Can you explain it?

29 minutes ago, gran_orco said:

Which is the meaning of "min/max"? Can you explain it?

You min/max when you worry more about percentages to hit of an ability than role-playing elements when choosing new skills and/or items.

Understood.

Wait... Do their rebels not min/max??

15 hours ago, machfalcon said:

Wait, do your Rebels not min/max?

Not in IRL. They pick skills they think work well and don't usually plan as much for the long term (but we play with house rule of respecing xp). It helps keep the pace of the game going

In PBF they sure do

I play fast and loose as the Empire, but my Rebels are much more analytical. Since I own the game and plan a mission ahead of time, though, I think it ends up evening out relatively well.