3 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I still think Rune Golems are by far the weakest Siege unit.

They are.

Edit: mistake

8 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I still think Rune Golems are by far the weakest Siege unit.

It kind of depends what you use them for. In a unit, they are my favorite siege unit. Adding threat is amazing.

As a individual unit they aren't super strong In theory. That being said in the last few games I've played all my carion lancers have done is shield and reposition to protect my flanks/provide a speed bump. As a body that slows down the enemy force they aren't that bad. Especially if you get thier skill and shield off.

As large unit of rune golems....well. I don't really know why someone would do that. I'd love to see it, but it can't beat the lancers.

9 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I still think Rune Golems are by far the weakest Siege unit.

Have you used the scions?

24 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Have you used the scions?

Now obviously I'm not @TallGiraffe , but I'm gonna pop in. I have not used them or even seen them in person so maybe my input is worthless, but I would choose a Scion with Vicious Roots over a Rune Golem almost every day of the week. They are reliable control pieces, and very focused in that role. Weak damage output, not very durable, poor maneuverability, but reliable in their role. When Rune Golems have the matchup, the runes, and the luck they spike hard, but I really just want something that shows up on time and does its job.

32 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Now obviously I'm not @TallGiraffe , but I'm gonna pop in. I have not used them or even seen them in person so maybe my input is worthless, but I would choose a Scion with Vicious Roots over a Rune Golem almost every day of the week. They are reliable control pieces, and very focused in that role. Weak damage output, not very durable, poor maneuverability, but reliable in their role. When Rune Golems have the matchup, the runes, and the luck they spike hard, but I really just want something that shows up on time and does its job.

My golem didn't die either game last night against waiqur. My scion had trouble just getting to combat most games. They don't reliably surge, so aside from throwing more points as a one off, their control value is greatly exaggerated, imo.

13 minutes ago, Darthain said:

My golem didn't die either game last night against waiqur. My scion had trouble just getting to combat most games. They don't reliably surge, so aside from throwing more points as a one off, their control value is greatly exaggerated, imo.

I like scions as back line scions. A cool way to help you keep your threat level up in games by prolonging the life of your back ranks. I also like scions for charging units if you can.

As for which I would prefer.... Honestly all seiges feel pretty similar to me save for the rune golems embedded ability being amazing.

No matter which faction, one hitting a seiges unit is hard unless resources are invested. Resources I would prefer be used on more important targets. Two rounds of combat seems to be the life expectancy to me. As far as I'm concerned if a seige unit survives 2 rounds of combat it's a Christmas miracle.

I don't think anyone is complaining about golems as an upgrade. I think they are probably the best upgrade of the siege units. The standalone can however disappoint.

To act as a blocker if you are already in position, there just isn't much going on for the golem. You can rally and armor up, but usually you get ignored so what are those two actions gaining you? The lancer can blight, and even charge after. The scion can at least attempt to get some damage through a ranged attack. Golems? They get to stand there and look awesome.

That's all thematic for them sure, but it can make playing them feel a bit dry.

That said, I am totally building a 4x1 line of them to shield my heart seeking crossbowmen. Common sense be damned, there's fun to be had!

I don't really think seige units are thematically suppose to be very exciting haha. My lancers very much just stare at the enemy.

Side note, they can blight and move 3 not charge.

I mean... I think people need to remember that the units we have right now are likely meant to comprise a sort of basic toolbox, ideally to be used to fill roles and make up the bulk of our forces for some time to come.

We only JUST NOW got the basic army box for the fourth faction and will soon complete that release with the expansions for the Uthuk basic units.

Yeah, yeah, we all WANT the fancy new wrench with the super unique setting and the patented adjustable torque-wongler, but what good is it without a good ol hammer? Hammers aren't necessarily the flashiest tools on the block but where would we be without them?

I'm pretty excited to see what the next few waves have in store.

EDIT: Also... I say this... but the Spined Thresher is pretty hot.

27 minutes ago, TheWiseGuy said:

I don't really think seige units are thematically suppose to be very exciting haha. My lancers very much just stare at the enemy.

Side note, they can blight and move 3 not charge.

I'd recommend spending some more time with the different combinations on the Lancer dial. They have some pretty neat options at very diverse initiatives.

29 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

I'd recommend spending some more time with the different combinations on the Lancer dial. They have some pretty neat options at very diverse initiatives.

It fully depends what you use them for. Lancers are versatile for sure. I just don't have enough to use them for damage so it's really just blocking, counter charging, and the occasional well timed assassination with or without Ardus.

I think an important to consider the similarity of two units available in Daqan: Spearmen and Rune Golems.

A maximum unit of Rune Golems is 74 points. This also buys you a maximum-sized Spear block with an embedded Front Line Rune Golem and a Citadel Weapon Master. This unit:

• Has the same width as a maximum unit of Rune Golems (so there's no significant maneuvering advantage either way in terms of most terrain, which ranges from capacity 2 to capacity 4, with only a few outliers containing capacity 6).
• Has the same threat as a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Has much better reliable March actions than a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Attacks before a maximum unit of Rune Golems (or attacks later with a Damage modifier).
• Has an additional Blue die over a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Has 2 lower minimum damage capacity ...
  • 35 Rank and File = 35 damage, 1 Rune Golem = 2*4 = 8 damage, Citadel Weapon Master = 3*1 = 3 damage; total = 46
  • 6 Rune Golems = 4*2*6 = 48 damage capacity.
• But can in practice resist damage better on the approach while advancing more consistently due to having a good-initiative, March-matching Defend modifier.
  • 35 RnF * 2 = 70, 1 RG = 2*5 = 10, CWM = 4*1 = 4; total = 84 damage capacity.
• Is slightly more vulnerable to chip damage, but has more trays, so it can somewhat make up for the potential loss.
• Lacks the crippling weakness to mortal strikes and wound effects that the Rune Golems have (e.g. 2 wounds = .5 trays, so 1/18 of your total, rather than 1 tray and 1/6 of your total).

So for a death star, you don't want Rune Golems. They're slow, unreliable, and actually hit less hard than your main alternative.

How about for a heavy-duty blocking unit?

A 2x2 unit of Rune Golems is 50 points. This buys you a 3x2 unit of Spearmen with 10 points of upgrades (Shield Wall if you think you can execute it, plus some heraldry and music to taste).

• As before, the Spears are more reliable, faster, and defend better. They still probably win out if you want a heavy-duty roadblock (particularly if you have Hawthorne to arrange them into a 2x3 to mitigate any maneuvering issues you might otherwise encounter).
• Your hitting power goes down noticeably, but you can still afford upgrades for an otherwise similar unit.
  • If you take a Lance Corporal instead of Shield Wall and some sort of upgrade-readying engine (Rallying Cornicern, Hawthorne), you can consistently Defend with your attacks, which will give you even more comparative durability.

Okay, so we're at the end of the line. What about a minimum blocking unit?

• A 1 tray Rune Golem has the same basic damage capacity (4*2 = 8 = 8*1) as a 2 tray spear unit for one point less ... but is pretty mediocre at leveraging its wounds through Defend, while the minimum spear tray outright doubles its wound potential to 16.
  • Critically, delivering a single 5 or 6 damage hit is well within the capacity of a 3 threat unit or a 2 threat unit with offensive upgrades. A rune golem dies from 2 of these. A spear unit (with a Defend modifier to serve purely as a roadblock) survives 2 or even 3.
• A 2 tray Rune Golem has the same basic damage capacity as a 2x2 Spearmen unit (4*4 = 16 = 1*16) for 2 points less ... but is still comparatively bad at leveraging its wounds through Defend.

So now that we've gone through Rune Golems' potential niches, what have I missed? When does a Rune Golem unit actually outvalue a similarly oriented unit of Spearmen?

29 minutes ago, Conscientious Objector said:

I think an important to consider similar units available in Daqan.

A maximum unit of Rune Golems is 74 points. This also buys you a maximum-sized Spear block with an embedded Front Line Rune Golem and a Citadel Weapon Master. This unit:

• Has the same width as a maximum unit of Rune Golems (so there's no significant maneuvering advantage either way in terms of most terrain, which ranges from capacity 2 to capacity 4, with only a few outliers containing capacity 6).
• Has the same threat as a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Has much better reliable March actions than a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Attacks before a maximum unit of Rune Golems (or attacks later with a Damage modifier).
• Has an additional Blue die over a maximum unit of Rune Golems.
• Has 2 lower minimum damage capacity ...
  • 35 Rank and File = 35 damage, 1 Rune Golem = 2*4 = 8 damage, Citadel Weapon Master = 3*1 = 3 damage; total = 46
  • 6 Rune Golems = 4*2*6 = 48 damage capacity.
• But can in practice resist damage better on the approach while advancing more consistently due to having a good-initiative, March-matching Defend modifier.
  • 35 RnF * 2 = 70, 1 RG = 2*5 = 10, CWM = 4*1 = 4; total = 84 damage capacity.
• Is slightly more vulnerable to chip damage, but has more trays, so it can somewhat make up for the potential loss.
• Lacks the crippling weakness to mortal strikes and wound effects that the Rune Golems have (e.g. 2 wounds = .5 trays, so 1/18 of your total, rather than 1 tray and 1/6 of your total).

So for a death star, you don't want Rune Golems. They're slow, unreliable, and actually hit less hard than your main alternative.

How about for a heavy-duty blocking unit?

A 2x2 unit of Rune Golems is 50 points. This buys you a 3x2 unit of Spearmen with 10 points of upgrades (Shield Wall if you think you can execute it, plus some heraldry and music to taste).

• As before, the Spears are more reliable, faster, and defend better. They still probably win out if you want a heavy-duty roadblock (particularly if you have Hawthorne to arrange them into a 2x3 to mitigate any maneuvering issues you might otherwise encounter).
• Your hitting power goes down noticeably, but you can still afford upgrades for an otherwise similar unit.
  • If you take a Lance Corporal instead of Shield Wall and some sort of upgrade-readying engine (Rallying Cornicern, Hawthorne), you can consistently Defend with your attacks, which will give you even more comparative durability.

Okay, so we're at the end of the line. What about a minimum blocking unit?

• A 1 tray Rune Golem has the same basic damage capacity (4*2 = 8 = 8*1) as a 2 tray spear unit for one point less ... but is pretty mediocre at leveraging its wounds through Defend, while the minimum spear tray outright doubles its wound potential to 16.
  • Critically, delivering a single 5 or 6 damage hit is well within the capacity of a 3 threat unit or a 2 threat unit with offensive upgrades. A rune golem dies from 2 of these. A spear unit (with a Defend modifier to serve purely as a roadblock) survives 2 or even 3.
• A 2 tray Rune Golem has the same basic damage capacity as a 2x2 Spearmen unit (4*4 = 16 = 1*16) for 2 points less ... but is still comparatively bad at leveraging its wounds through Defend.

So now that we've gone through Rune Golems' potential niches, what have I missed? When does a Rune Golem unit actually outvalue a similarly oriented unit of Spearmen?

I like this analysis.

3 hours ago, TheWiseGuy said:

I like this analysis.

It's also not based solely on paper, he and I have extensively tested different golem units countless times. They always come up short on delivery for the points sink.

Ive learned to fear a spearstar far more than a golem block.

5 hours ago, Jukey said:

It's also not based solely on paper, he and I have extensively tested different golem units countless times. They always come up short on delivery for the points sink.

Ive learned to fear a spearstar far more than a golem block.

Citadel weapons master though? Be a shame if someone... Ran Kari with Fortunas. That's a dead weapons master. Elf archers should be able to pick it out en route as well. Be wary putting all your eggs in one basket. Especially such an easily finished basket.

I chuckle when I see a fully kitted big block, with multiple figures, as I'll typically wear them away long before they are used. Deathcaller/blighted vexellum/ golem+weapons master/lance corporal. All will die. Figure upgrades are also something not a diminishing returns, min/maxing a single formation is a gamble.

I'm not afriad of big blocks in the least.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

Citadel weapons master though? Be a shame if someone... Ran Kari with Fortunas. That's a dead weapons master. Elf archers should be able to pick it out en route as well. Be wary putting all your eggs in one basket. Especially such an easily finished basket.

I chuckle when I see a fully kitted big block, with multiple figures, as I'll typically wear them away long before they are used. Deathcaller/blighted vexellum/ golem+weapons master/lance corporal. All will die. Figure upgrades are also something not a diminishing returns, min/maxing a single formation is a gamble.

I'm not afriad of big blocks in the least.

The point of Jukey’s and C-Objector’s comment aren’t necessarily that big bocks are the best. They are a comparison of Golems vs Spearmen at various sizes - including max trays - and how the Golems consistently seem to come up short.

Now, the figure upgrades being Snipe-able is a consideration. Golems require less upgrades to function.

The “all die before they reach me” commentary is unhelpful as it doesn’t in any way address the point being made. It iust tries to push an “I’m good enough that I don’t worry about your issues” attitude that raises hackles.

36 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The point of Jukey’s and C-Objector’s comment aren’t necessarily that big bocks are the best. They are a comparison of Golems vs Spearmen at various sizes - including max trays - and how the Golems consistently seem to come up short.

Now, the figure upgrades being Snipe-able is a consideration. Golems require less upgrades to function.

The “all die before they reach me” commentary is unhelpful as it doesn’t in any way address the point being made. It iust tries to push an “I’m good enough that I don’t worry about your issues” attitude that raises hackles.

Not quite what I'm getting at, it is more consistency vs blue sky potential. If you are leaning on upgrades, mistlands saboteurs, morale cards , and figure sniping are all existing mechanisms to deal with this.

That said, spearmen are not something I'd lean on, unless I needed something very specific, such as explosive wizards. I find they melt pretty quick, much like reanimates, but with none of the recovery.

Crossbows and cav are where I slide right now.

Golems can outdo spears in 2 or damaged unit control. Their armour will make them menaces for anything that doesn't have 3 threat or a lot of dice, and small investments can just sit back and laugh to the bank (like that Maro regeneration 4x1 reanimates that was at one point much larger. Just stuck that in place for a few rounds, when the crossbows were done paring it. It lasted longer than the carrion worms approaching oblique (which got hero'd, instead of living it out). A spear block would have been losing figures steady.

It is all about choosing your targets well, a spear block will last longer if you charge in blindly, but then you probably have other issues.

Reductio ad Doomblade is always a consideration. Units die when attacked. That said, an upgraded Kari is a ~40 point package. Spending her activations to scalpel out figure upgrades seems inefficient. Due to the speed of a Spear block and its ability to partially jump over the Range 1-5 band with a March 4 action, you should usually get 1+ number of blocking units rounds of shooting.

Said blocking units tend to trade inefficiently with large melee units, which can allow breakthroughs to the ranged units behind. Spear blocks are better at accomplishing this than Rune Golem units are, due to their superior dial options, better best case output, and better initiatives.

2 hours ago, Conscientious Objector said:

Reductio ad Doomblade is always a consideration. Units die when attacked. That said, an upgraded Kari is a ~40 point package. Spending her activations to scalpel out figure upgrades seems inefficient.

She does a whole lot more after, naturally, Fortunas is just a solid upgrade, considering she can rally after every attack if you'd like. You don't stand out front and wait to die ?

Quote

See the thing about figure upgrades and sniping them is, even if you drop a figure upgrade or two you still have a huge spearstar to deal with which on average can armor up to 2 or even 3 if it doesn't want to swing. Taking down figure upgrades also means it's threat and reroll stick around longer too, whereas killing just one golem in a formation means only a single die reroll.

I admit I don't see kari across the board all that often anymore, but she is a lot like the elf heroes, hits really hard but dies if you breath on her.

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:15 AM, Jukey said:

It's also not based solely on paper, he and I have extensively tested different golem units countless times. They always come up short on delivery for the points sink.

Ive learned to fear a spearstar far more than a golem block.

Until you go up against Latari archers, who are happy to systematically pick apart your spear-star with MSU units, but would whiff half their shots at the golem-star unless they're running a 3x2 block that can strip one wound a turn.

Adding an entire wound to Rune Golems would be madness. I'd much rather have [an upgrade / a hero] that gave them access to protection to give their armor a tiny buff without just flat-out raising their armor straight-up. Either exhaust for protection 1 or a constant protection <natural> w/in some range from a hero.

I'm not convinced they're not just flat-out solid if you build for them with the Greyhaven Channeler, but since I don't play Daqan anymore I won't make wild assertions.

5 minutes ago, kaffis said:

Until you go up against Latari archers, who are happy to systematically pick apart your spear-star with MSU units, but would whiff half their shots at the golem-star unless they're running a 3x2 block that can strip one wound a turn.

Adding an entire wound to Rune Golems would be madness. I'd much rather have [an upgrade / a hero] that gave them access to protection to give their armor a tiny buff without just flat-out raising their armor straight-up. Either exhaust for protection 1 or a constant protection <natural> w/in some range from a hero.

I'm not convinced they're not just flat-out solid if you build for them with the Greyhaven Channeler, but since I don't play Daqan anymore I won't make wild assertions.

Why wouldn't you run Tempered steel on all your archers I must ask?

I said half your shots -- you're rallying it periodically. You're right, though, that the 6-block can do 2 when it's up, my bad.

And yeah, maybe protection 2 where I said 1.