I'll throw together some other match-ups later. I did a quick run vs Death Knights and Reanimates (both vanilla, but regen added for reanimates). Both times, Rune Golems were on top greater than 50% for relatively even matchups. Now this is still a simple simulation mind you. Upgrades will be added after I get the command dials in.

One game I had a 2x3 Death Knight unit that got into a sticky situation. Engaged with Hawthorne, then 2 single Rune Golems came in flanking. They locked up the Death Knights pretty hard. Granted the Death Knights took an amazing amount of punishment, 3-4 rounds with all 3 beating on them, but the Rune Golems definitely are scary flankers.

8 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

I ran a few simulations with the Rune Golem vs Carrion Lancer.

Assumptions:

• Both units vanilla
• melee combat (engaged round 1)
• no blight
• re-roll anything that is not damage, if re-rolls are available
• no dials ( they are not modeled yet)
• attacks happen at the same initiative, and flip-flop each round for first/second player
• rune golems attack first for each engagement
• 500 simulated combats
• runes are cast each round

RG v CL (any missing percentages are due to both units surviving until 8 rounds have passed)

• 1 v 1) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 72% : 25% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 65% : 10% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 13% : 25% CL (the first time the Carrion Lancers best the same size RG unit)

Increasing the wound threshold to 3 for the Rune Golem:

• 1 v 1 ) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 96% : 4% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 88% : 11% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 30% : 0.2% RG

Are the golem's getting their +1/+2 threat?

9 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Are the golem's getting their +1/+2 threat?

Yes they are.

getting 2 hits on a 2threat unit isnt perfect rolls.

Every single 2x1 unit either has a red die (for doublehit) or precise for rerolls at minimum. I see them do 4 damage far more than 2 (especially when factoring in surge stuff)

This is why Reanimate's regeneration was considered complete trash at first because they almost NEVER had a partial tray alive. It was always 4, 8, or 0 damage, they'd get hit with a 2 or 6 damage attack maybe 2-3 times a game. And even then, 6 damage was more common than 2 so they still lost a full tray before regeneration kicked in.

From the start i rarely ever had a golem last more than 2 rounds once they started getting hit, and half the time would just die in 1 attack against anything that wasnt the 2x1 cheapo unit.

3 hours ago, Darthain said:

2 threat units need perfect rolls and the golem to not armour up to do damage at all, generally. Taking a wound isn't the end of the world, it is expected. Oh no, your half dead golem just smashed their face.

Unless I roll a blank and panic. or worse most of the time. And attacking means they won't armor up til 5.

33 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Unless I roll a blank and panic. or worse most of the time. And attacking means they won't armor up til 5.

Or they stun you and remove your modifier and armour up, laughing the entire time.

I'm just going to sum up with an anecdote. You can take it for as meaningful or meaningless as you like.

I've been playing 3-5 games of Runewars per month since it released, mostly against Daqan, with very skilled players (Two of ours were are Gencon in the team tourney, one of ours was at Worlds).

I've never once lost a game, or been put on the ropes due to any Rune Golem that wasn't frontlining for spearmen.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

I'm just going to sum up with an anecdote. You can take it for as meaningful or meaningless as you like.

I've been playing 3-5 games of Runewars per month since it released, mostly against Daqan, with very skilled players (Two of ours were are Gencon in the team tourney, one of ours was at Worlds).

I've never once lost a game, or been put on the ropes due to any Rune Golem that wasn't frontlining for spearmen.

Perhaps annoyed because it delayed you...but thats it.

Worst damage ive had my golems do is they slammed into a 2x1 of kitties and basically wasted 3 turns due to stun + armor up (and he didnt get the mortal strike one round)

6 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Perhaps annoyed because it delayed you...but thats it.

Worst damage ive had my golems do is they slammed into a 2x1 of kitties and basically wasted 3 turns due to stun + armor up (and he didnt get the mortal strike one round)

I really like the stun + armor up combo. I think it's the best thing they can do.

I also think they are wildly overpriced and way too delicate to make it worth trying. Two wounds is bad. Carrion Lancers are WAY more survivable with a lower defense and one more wound.

13 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I really like the stun + armor up combo. I think it's the best thing they can do.

I also think they are wildly overpriced and way too delicate to make it worth trying. Two wounds is bad. Carrion Lancers are WAY more survivable with a lower defense and one more wound.

And I do like that design! The choice between offense and defense is interesting, but it just never feels worth attacking with RR and no rerolls. I've been burned too many times!

I do mean to try a 2x1 with Visored Helms though. Makes them VERY resilient to 2-threat attacks, 3-threat needs 4 hits instead of 3 to do two wounds, and 4-threat pretty much knocks off a hit. Live more than two turns AND get to make some attacks? Could be neat.

Playing against a non-Waiqar opponent would sure be nice.

And, come on.... the image of a four armed Rune Golem just slamming all four arms into the ground at the same time, stunning his opponents and curling up into an impenetrable rock is awesome.

I'm hoping they get fixed. I want them to be good.

Also, @Bhelliom , have you tried using Hawthorne to convert a 2x1 into a 1x2? That re-roll helps a LOT. This is probably the most dangerous configuration I've faced, and one of the only ones I'm not content to ignore for the most part.

3 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Also, @Bhelliom , have you tried using Hawthorne to convert a 2x1 into a 1x2? That re-roll helps a LOT. This is probably the most dangerous configuration I've faced, and one of the only ones I'm not content to ignore for the most part.

I have, and it is good. Their average damage goes from 4.5/6 to 4.12/6.18 so pretty much a wash, but reliability certainly improves (48% to 78% chance of two or more hits, 14% to 2% chance of no hits). The only thing I dislike is it worsens their game against Carrion Lancers and Death Knights because you can't be sure whether your threat will be 2 or 3.

35 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

I have, and it is good. Their average damage goes from 4.5/6 to 4.12/6.18 so pretty much a wash, but reliability certainly improves (48% to 78% chance of two or more hits, 14% to 2% chance of no hits). The only thing I dislike is it worsens their game against Carrion Lancers and Death Knights because you can't be sure whether your threat will be 2 or 3.

Daqan at least has a method to recast a rune.

I often rely on this fact for Daqan players to try and give me my second blue rune for Deathcaller.

15 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Daqan at least has a method to recast a rune.

I often rely on this fact for Daqan players to try and give me my second blue rune for Deathcaller.

Had a lot of fun with malcorns the other game, kept casting away unstable with my Maegan, as Maro was sitting opposite.

33 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Daqan at least has a method to recast a rune.

I often rely on this fact for Daqan players to try and give me my second blue rune for Deathcaller.

Have you come across a Greyhaven Channeler build that you've been impressed with? 2x2 Spearmen seems the natural fit, but... I'm not sure what to do with the unit. 3x2 and 3x3 probably want more combat-focused champions, and I do not know where that leaves the 2x2.

i mean, in theory the golem is the most damaging single tray in the game.

if he has brutal2 and ... somehow rolls 2hit2hit thats 12 damage from a 17pt model.

Again, though, dies way too easy and no rerolls. I used to think they should be immune to mortal wounds but unfortunately this game went the route of "theres things that ignore armor and theres things that ignore armor that arent the first thing" - and right now i feel suffering a wound is more common than mortal strikes so being immune to mortal strikes would BARELY help.

The last time I ran a single rune golem, I cleared a full health 2x1 of Latari archers in my first attack (9 damage off of the charge, before they could activate). It was the most satisfying moment of the whole game, even more than my eventual victory.

That anecdote doesn't prove they are well balanced with other units, but man, do I have fun using them! I think it adds tension to the game that they are so swingy.

Not knowing what runes are going to come up on each turn is my favorite part of this game, and Rune Golems are the unit that I think have the most to lose or gain on those runes.

Embrace the unpredictability!

Just had a thought on the perfect fix. Leave everything the same, but add protected equal to natural (green) runes. They are rune golems after all, so why not have all the runes apply.

1 hour ago, Jukey said:

Just had a thought on the perfect fix. Leave everything the same, but add protected equal to natural (green) runes. They are rune golems after all, so why not have all the runes apply.

Have that as a Daqan Equipment upgrade I could see it help them out.

23 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

I do mean to try a 2x1 with Visored Helms though.

I want to see someone do some custom modeling work for that, if it turns out to be a good build. Rune Golems with helmets sounds delightful.

10 minutes ago, Zetan said:

I want to see someone do some custom modeling work for that, if it turns out to be a good build. Rune Golems with helmets sounds delightful.

Hmmm.

I still think Golems need another wound.

2 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I still think Golems need another wound.

I'll tell Ardus to get right on that.

Oh, you meant wound threshold. Sorry

10 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I'll tell Ardus to get right on that.

Oh, you meant wound threshold. Sorry

I still think Rune Golems are by far the weakest Siege unit.

i've not read all the comments, this is just my 2 cent tossed in this pool:

Golems are a strange beast. They are "fine", i think that making some change here (except maybe discount them by a point or two) will make them too strong. Adding a wound on a thing that can go to 5-6 armor is HUGE, adding a THIRD red dice is TOO HUGE with the brutal (stable rune) thing, ecc. ecc.

So they are "fine", but they suffer when you see that practically every army except daqan gives mortal strikes and wounds like candy, so that armor is only partially good. And they are pretty **** slow. In this game movement is REALLY good.