I like the free golem only upgrade card that adds 1 wound. Or maybe even make it cost a point or two

It also sounds to me like some are expecting more from what the golem really is in this game.

9 minutes ago, Ywingscum said:

It also sounds to me like some are expecting more from what the golem really is in this game.

Back to my MSU point -- they *do* put two dials in every golem expansion box. Hint hint!

...Or say **** it and make the third Daqan hero a Rune Golem. Give him/her/both/it/neither the army building ability to either add a specific upgrade card to all Rune Golems (sort of a Kethra ability), add a certain slot like Training to all Golems, or add to some Rune Golem stat

37 minutes ago, Church14 said:

...Or say **** it and make the third Daqan hero a Rune Golem. Give him/her/both/it/neither the army building ability to either add a specific upgrade card to all Rune Golems (sort of a Kethra ability), add a certain slot like Training to all Golems, or add to some Rune Golem stat

I'd crap my pants for a golem hero.

Artan the awakened, the golem with a heart, lol.

3 hours ago, Darthain said:

A simo order deathcaller gets sniped before it can fire, or should anyway. Not a combo I'm afraid of at all.

Except that Deathcall Disco can do a march+skill. So suddenly the deathcall threat range is about 1.5 the range ruler. I played Deathcall Disco at world and never lost a Deathcaller before turn 6, if at all.

Also, Waiqar specializes in handing out wounds instead of dealing damage. Rune Golems are the eaiest thing to handle in that matchup. Giving them +1 wound (probably as a upgrade card, think titles/modification fixes in X-Wing) would help immensely.

14 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

Except that Deathcall Disco can do a march+skill. So suddenly the deathcall threat range is about 1.5 the range ruler. I played Deathcall Disco at world and never lost a Deathcaller before turn 6, if at all.

Also, Waiqar specializes in handing out wounds instead of dealing damage. Rune Golems are the eaiest thing to handle in that matchup. Giving them +1 wound (probably as a upgrade card, think titles/modification fixes in X-Wing) would help immensely.

And I've killed plenty of them before they could fire both the caller and worm require LoS to work. It is easy to do.

Single wound figure upgrades are quite unreliable.

I disagree that golems are overly weak. I mean, maybe they are weak in top-level tourney play (there isn't competitive play in my area so I wouldn't know), but they've always done fine in the matches I've seen. 2x2 is pretty darn tanky. You just don't deploy next to the stuff they have that throws mortals strikes and wounds all over the place. Smaller units are great tarpits with stun action + defense modifiers.

For context, I mod my games to balance stuff all the time. I design my own factions (battlelore), I re-balance units (imperial assault), I even dabble in making my own games. I say this to make the point that I'm more than open to homebrew re-balancing in my games, but I just don't see Rune Golems as needing a change. Honestly until there's a lot more stuff in the game, I wouldn't re-balance anything just because there are so few units to compare things against at this point. Maybe next year.

Golems need an upgrade? OK, let's take a few things into consideration comparatively.

Compared to the Carrion Lancer: Carrion lancer stand alone can only possibly break the armor of the rune golem on a perfect hit, so 1 v 1 the golem wins. 2, the golem has Brutal of 1 or 2, meaning they do 2 or 3 times the damage they roll. 4 hits turns into 12 hits, which kills a carion lancer in one swing, something the carrion lancer has no potential to do. The carrion lancer... still does a maximum of 5 hits when rolled perfectly. (mind you this is engaged. When flanking a unit, the carrion lancer get 1 or 2 hits more, if you add a red die. The Rune Golem, due to Brutal, has the potential to add up to 6 more hits when flanking. I know the carrion lancer has potential of dealing brutal, but that requires synergies outside of the unit itself since it can't blight engaged units). The Rune golem can kill a hero by itself, the carrion lancer absouletly cannot, unless a perfect situation is setup, and that's rare. Neither the carrion lancer, nor the Rune golem have rerolls, so that's balanced. When you consider how many hits are required to kill either unit, the Carrion lancer dies after 9 total hits, the Rune Golem dies after 8. That's super close, and when you add the defense modifier it's from 10-12 hits to kill the rune golem.

When it comes to movement, the Rune golem can smash 4 spaces on initiative 4, and has a WHITE reform modifier (the carrion lancer's is a green primary action meaning the only thing it can do is reform and then increase defense)

When it comes to increasing defense, the defense modifier for the Rune golem matches the attack color, while the carrion lancer matches the rally or skill action (which he can't use when engaged) which means in one on one combat the carrion lancer again can't modify his defense without sacrificing an attack.

The rally modifier on the Rune golem is white, which means he can rally after ANY action, removing any banes before the carrion lancer can use it, the carion lancer's is yellow and primary meaning if they rally, they can only increase defense or move straight ahead. If they get a bane during combat, it's stuck unless they want to sacrifice an attack.

Now... did you still want to argue that the seige unit of the rune golem is still unblanced?

7 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Done it. They're weak. And expensive. A simo order deathcaller can drop one in a single action at range 5 on a good turn.

A) Totally disagree. They are a fantastic tarpits, especially if they have wind rune to help them get in and lock down an opponents scary unit.

B) Ok, delathcaller is one counter, but how many people bring him to a tournament? And with the stun ability you can lock the deathcaller down. And with Runic manipulation you can limit deathcaller's impact.

That's the great thing about this game, for every move there is a counter. 2x2s of Golems are not the end all be all, but they are fantastic tarpits and when used well are quite scary.

2 hours ago, backupsidekick said:

When it comes to increasing defense, the defense modifier for the Rune golem matches the attack color, while the carrion lancer matches the rally or skill action (which he can't use when engaged) which means in one on one combat the carrion lancer again can't modify his defense without sacrificing an attack.

Compared to a Carrion Lancer, I agree -- since they both have 5 attack (but this only works 50% of the rounds they're engaged). Against other targets though, initative-5 for armoring up is a bit late.

I still agree with you that they're good single-tray units.

The Rune Golems are the reason I got into this game. They might be a little expensive, but that's just the tax you have to pay for having such a cool looking unit on the battlefield. Cool-tax. I have found they die easily, but playing a bunch of single tray golems with a wizard running rune manipulation at the back of the battlefield allows you to concentrate a ton of damage on a very small area. Sure, one might get killed, but you have three others pounding on the same target.

1 hour ago, flightmaster101 said:

That's the great thing about this game, for every move there is a counter. 2x2s of Golems are not the end all be all, but they are fantastic tarpits and when used well are quite scary.

2x2 Golems with Wind Rune is 56 points, 28% of your list. A unit that costly needs to do more than tarpit - the whole point of a tarpit is to hold off something more valuable than it to let your other units gain an advantage. For 56 points I can get a 2x3 Oathsworn with Wind Rune and either Column Tactics or Rank Discipline, depending on whether I have Hawthorne along (or piercing strike, or moment of inspiration, etc), and that's a unit I can count on to get work done.

@backupsidekick , your 1v1 slugfest is pretty disingenuous. Not only is that matchup not relevant outside of demo games, but you're placing your emphasis on the top end of the Golem's potential and ignoring the fact that a single blight means the Golem is done for. In actual games, Golems need to avoid Lancers like the plague. It's also a game primarily of maneuvering, and the Lancer just has better options.

imo, literally just give them a third wound.

Until they beef up to 5+ armor theyre the easiest siege to take down because of mortal strike vulnerability and getting 4 damage in 1 attack is really, really easy. But unless they use their 3init action they will never armor up before something hits them, since they attack at init5 and EVERYTHING is either faster or simo (who uses the slow attack on daqan spears/oaths?)

Brutal2 potential is the only thing they have other sieges do not that actually does something. White rally is awesome but when they die in 2 attacks (sometimes 1) reliably, who cares? But i have had a single golem do 9 damage, no other siege can do that. (nevermind that the deathcaller combo also autokills a golem when threat2 is around, hence give them a third freakin' wound...)

They have no surge use period. They have no attack modifier period (does anything else lack an attack modifier? not counting melee attack on archers im talking period). They also have the least upgrade option (why does the 6tray have the same upgrades as the 2tray? they dont get ANYTHING extra?)

They are just all around sliiiightly too weak to be useful. You could slightly buff them in like 5 different areas and they'd be awesome but probably not broken.
1) 3hp (mentioned)
2) 5armor (still super vulnerable to mortal wounds and "suffer a wound" as they have 2 wounds)
3) 3rd attack die (SUPER glass cannon, as they will hit like a freight train but still die easy)
4) Attack at init4 (most units will attack simo or later, offering def+ mod to actually do something)
5) More upgrade options (more for the future than now)

Any one of those happen, they'd be fine.

edit: 6) make the Stun a surge effect.

5 hours ago, Darthain said:

I'd crap my pants for a golem hero.

Artan the awakened, the golem with a heart, lol.

im fully expecting a "Runeshaper" hero eventually. I.e. a mage that specializes in golemancy stuff.
His armywide buff will be a limited boost to golems (to prevent people from just massing golems with him its limited to say 4 models, but those 4 models are noticeably way deadlier)

9 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

im fully expecting a "Runeshaper" hero eventually. I.e. a mage that specializes in golemancy stuff.
His armywide buff will be a limited boost to golems (to prevent people from just massing golems with him its limited to say 4 models, but those 4 models are noticeably way deadlier)

Kethra has shown precedence for handing out permanent unit buffs, so the runeshaper hero could certainly do that. I also very much expect at some point to see a hero with an action that lets a unit immediately make an advance. That would suit the golems quite well.

I'm on the side of leaving them as they are.

Every army will have units which are not as effective as the opponents version. Should reanimates be the same as spear men? Of course not. It is a very slippery slope when the player base starts to put pressure on the developers to improve this unit or that unit, particularly so early in a game's life cycle.

Where does it lead, I present 40k.

After 25 years of playing that unholy mess my personal insight is don't mess with unit rules as it throws out the whole game over time.

I believe playing golems against Waiqar has clouded people's judgement. Play a lot of games where you opponent is Latari and the seem a lot better. Especially using wind Rune and armor to be armor 5 or 6 at initiative 3 while moving to engage.

28 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

I believe playing golems against Waiqar has clouded people's judgement. Play a lot of games where you opponent is Latari and the seem a lot better. Especially using wind Rune and armor to be armor 5 or 6 at initiative 3 while moving to engage.

I played 2 games as latari last Tuesday, and aside from some lucky 3x1 column tactics hitting for 12, archers sit around 4 dmg max... Yes you can use tempered steel, but it's not easy as they take a lot to rally with, ultimately didn't feel worth it imo.

Heroes and cavalry aside, latari just don't hit as hard overall.

Latari are half lousy against golems and half amazing atm.

Archers and Scions struggle against golems unless in a BIG block for threat3. Archers need max damage unless theyre threat3 or have tempsteel to hurt a golem and need virtually perfect dice and threat3 and tempsteel to 1shot them (1 hit/surge 1hit + tempsteel = 3x3 =9). Scions have more dice than golems but no threat and only 1 red so they'd have to roll perfect 2hit/hit/hit to hurt a golem. Flipside a golem would have issues killing them alone though since as they get threat, the scions get armor. But theyre generally stallers so big deal.

Maegan and battlecats shred golems. Maegan flatout adds half the required wounds to kill a golem and has pretty decent odds of getting 4 damage even without threat to get the last wound off while attacking long before possible bonus armor kicks in. Battlecats need surge for the mortal strike but with 3dice they get it pretty commonly anyway.

This is of course speaking in the usualy 1-3 speedbump golems. I think they would still have problems against a 2x2 or 3x2 of golems, but waiqar would laugh at that so hard i would never do it.

3 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

@backupsidekick , your 1v1 slugfest is pretty disingenuous. Not only is that matchup not relevant outside of demo games, but you're placing your emphasis on the top end of the Golem's potential and ignoring the fact that a single blight means the Golem is done for. In actual games, Golems need to avoid Lancers like the plague. It's also a game primarily of maneuvering, and the Lancer just has better options.

This whole conversation has been "The golems compared to other siege units shows its over priced and needs a buff". I'm just trying to look at raw data.

Average damage: advantage goes to rune golem.

Brutal requires no synergy, it happens automatically, the carrion lancer's ability requires synergy with other units- advantage rune golem.

Total hit points when considering HPxDefense: base stats carrion lancer gets one more hit than the rune golem, give the golem 3 hp and the golem beats the carrion lancer by 3 hits. Should the lancer get 4 defense too to make up for the difference if rune golem gets 3 hp? The defense modifier means the golem will have either 5 or 6 defense, which means either 10 or 12 hits, and he doesn't sacrifice his attack to do this. Carion lancer tops out at 12 hits, and sacrifices offensive capability to make this happen.

Lower defense is a HUGE disadvantage. If both sides hit for 3 damage, the carion lancer takes a wound, the rune golem takes nothing. The attack is basically wasted. A wasted attack is a huge advantage over taking permanent wounds that eventually kill your unit. Talk to Maro about how exciting it is to have a 2 in defense. 10 hits total before he dies and he's a hero, is that unbalanced? He costs 40 points compared to the rune golem at 17.

Movement is balanced in my opinion because of the rune golem's possible initiative 4 movement and the white reform modifier.

So, where does the carrion lancer vs rune golem show that the rune golem is at a DISADVANTAGE? This whole conversation is based on "Rune golem is the weakest siege unit", but just because it can die early, doesn't mean its unbalanced. Engage archers early and they won't get to attack, so since they die without a decent attack what is the suggested balance? Anything strictly melee can't fend off a ranged attack before they engage, so should they all be immune to ranged attacks to make them balanced?

The reason Carrion Lancers do survive is because they can use their ranged special, not because they are more brutal at dealing damage or have more lasting power. Use rune golems differently, use them as buffers to your heroes like Kari that can deal major damage at range. Put them into spearmen trays for extra brutal. Use them to flank other units engaged with the cavalry. Just because you want the rune golem to act a certain way and do things a certain way, and it doesn't, does not mean that it needs rebalancing, it just means you need to use it differently. I have seen them used to GREAT effect. They are powerful hero killers. With a single Rune golem flanking Ardus, they can deal 18 damage which is lethal. One attack. Now, that's a perfect world, but you put 2 golems up against a hero, and that hero is dust. Put 2 golems up against a star of units and the single golem can kill of TRAYS of units. The multi tray star can only attack one golem at a time so one of them will survive to get a second.

The thing about comparing Rune Golems and Carrion lancers 1v1 is poor.

My problem is that most units with 2 threat won't have too much issue getting the 4 damage needed to get one wound. Same goes for Carrion lancers. Threat 3 units are more dangerous to lancers sure but the threat 2 units is what I am more emphasizing here. Not deathcaller disco or Waiqar. 2 threat units have the same potential to wound Golems as they do lancers.

Lancers benefit from training slot too but that is me nitpicking.

The biggest issues with golems for me is 2 wounds and that they are inconsistent.

I ran a few simulations with the Rune Golem vs Carrion Lancer.

Assumptions:

• Both units vanilla
• melee combat (engaged round 1)
• no blight
• re-roll anything that is not damage, if re-rolls are available
• no dials ( they are not modeled yet)
• attacks happen at the same initiative, and flip-flop each round for first/second player
• rune golems attack first for each engagement
• 500 simulated combats
• runes are cast each round

RG v CL (any missing percentages are due to both units surviving until 8 rounds have passed)

• 1 v 1) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 72% : 25% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 65% : 10% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 13% : 25% CL (the first time the Carrion Lancers best the same size RG unit)

Increasing the wound threshold to 3 for the Rune Golem:

• 1 v 1 ) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 96% : 4% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 88% : 11% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 30% : 0.2% RG

2 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

I ran a few simulations with the Rune Golem vs Carrion Lancer.

Assumptions:

• Both units vanilla
• melee combat (engaged round 1)
• no blight
• re-roll anything that is not damage, if re-rolls are available
• no dials ( they are not modeled yet)
• attacks happen at the same initiative, and flip-flop each round for first/second player
• rune golems attack first for each engagement
• 500 simulated combats
• runes are cast each round

RG v CL (any missing percentages are due to both units surviving until 8 rounds have passed)

• 1 v 1) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 72% : 25% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 65% : 10% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 13% : 25% CL (the first time the Carrion Lancers best the same size RG unit)

Increasing the wound threshold to 3 for the Rune Golem:

• 1 v 1 ) 90% : 1% RG
• 2x1 v 2x1 ) 96% : 4% RG
• 2x2 v 2x2 ) 88% : 11% RG
• 3x2 v 3x2 ) 30% : 0.2% RG

This seems cool and all. But.....

My problem with Rune Golems is not comparing them to other siege units. Its the fact they are so fragile against most 2 threat units and many more units having ways to generate mortal strikes. Just comparing them to 1v1 to other siege units won't help when they will be put in game with multiple units and upgrades that can be thrown at them. Kinda wish they had a champion slot of Forged in Battle.

2 threat units need perfect rolls and the golem to not armour up to do damage at all, generally. Taking a wound isn't the end of the world, it is expected. Oh no, your half dead golem just smashed their face.