I promise, this is not beating a dead horse.

Yes, yes, I know, triggering their reactions on the defense is a bad idea. Because it means the attacker - y'know, your opponent - gets to resolve the ring twice. But talking things over with my Scorpion buddy, @Facedownninja , we realized that the ring effects are unconditional. So are the Reactions. So, if you trigger the reaction, then the ring effect must be resolved a second time. How could we use this to our advantage? For all of these "I" am the defender, and "you" are the attacker.

Ring of Void - Let's say I only have one character with fate, and only one fate on them. If you swing with Ring of Void, you'll resolve it to take the fate off my character. But then I make you resolve it again, forcing you to remove a fate from one of your own characters.

Ring of Earth - You've been playing pretty heavy on the card draw, or it's late in the game and your deck is getting low. If you swing with Earth, I can force you to draw a second card, potentially and eventually forcing a mill.

Ring of Air - This one's dangerous, but might have potential. You're Scorpion. You like to be under me, but still keeping it close. If you swing with Air to try to even out the honor a bit, I could force you to hit it again. Hopefully, this would put your honor above mine, shutting down some of your more powerful cards.

I know they're all highly circumstantial, and pretty counter-intuitive. And I'm not saying it's the best idea in the world. But under certain specific circumstances, it could be beneficial to force your opponent into resolving rings twice.

While it doesn't completely dismiss your point, don't forget that they won't trigger the ring a first time if you win on defense, because they don't claim the ring. You can force them to resolve a ring effect *once* though. Presumably they wanted to when they chose that ring so it works in their favor, but edge cases could happen. Most likely scenario I suppose would be if they have one character with fate on it and want to prevent you from void ringing them, so they take void ring themselves, then you manage to win with Toturi/Hotaru. (edit: Nevermind this is stupid for the exact reason you are theoretically exploting)

However, someone would have to clarify, but I think someone somewhere said that there is a 'may' built in to each of the choices? So the attacker could just choose not to remove fate?

1 minute ago, AradonTemplar said:

While it doesn't completely dismiss your point, don't forget that they won't trigger the ring a first time if you win on defense, because they don't claim the ring. You can force them to resolve a ring effect *once* though.

Oof, yes, my apologies. Brainderp.

2 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

However, someone would have to clarify, but I think someone somewhere said that there is a 'may' built in to each of the choices? So the attacker could just choose not to remove fate?

I double-checked the Ring text in the Rules Reference. There is no "may". Same with the Reactions.

6 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Oof, yes, my apologies. Brainderp.

I double-checked the Ring text in the Rules Reference. There is no "may". Same with the Reactions.

Reactions are actions, and so it is the controller who chooses if they resolve. You are not forced to resolve a reaction. The exception being a "forced reaction" such as the one on Steadfast Samurai.

Also, if you look up Ring Effect in the Rules Reference the first line specifies that the winner "may" resolve a ring effect. They can choose not to.

1 minute ago, DrDevidents said:

Reactions are actions, and so it is the controller who chooses if they resolve. You are not forced to resolve a reaction. The exception being a "forced reaction" such as the one on Steadfast Samurai.

Also, if you look up Ring Effect in the Rules Reference the first line specifies that the winner "may" resolve a ring effect. They can choose not to.

True, true. However, in this scenario, I'm the one who controls Hotaru.

5 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

True, true. However, in this scenario, I'm the one who controls Hotaru.

"Reaction: After you claim a ring during a conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect."

Once I do decide to kick off that Reaction, there's nothing optional about it. Resolve that ring's effect. Period.

Right, Yes. But that's still only one resolution of the ring. You have to claim the ring to use Hotaru/Toturi's ability. And if you claim the ring your opponent is not resolving the ring.

So in your first example, if the attacker wins the conflict, you can't trigger Hotaru or Toturi.

The only possible way (right now) that the ring effect resolves twice for the same player is if you win the conflict.

Just now, DrDevidents said:

Right, Yes. But that's still only one resolution of the ring. You have to claim the ring to use Hotaru/Toturi's ability. And if you claim the ring your opponent is not resolving the ring.

So in your first example, if the attacker wins the conflict, you can't trigger Hotaru or Toturi.

Right, I realize that all my references to "again" and "second time" and whatnot were in error.

That said, there is an amount of ring-swap in the game right now. Maybe there would be a case where you'd want to force your opponent to trigger a ring they didn't want?

I'm not expecting this to be a tournament-dominating strategy, just trying to think of things a little differently.

OK, my apologies.

Yes, there would be a few rare situations I guess. You could force Scorpion to gain honor to turn off their stronghold, force a player to target one of their own characters with Void, draw a card to force an honor loss...

Is it just me or did anyone else read the OP and think twinstar was using a Tim Gunn voice?

"Make it work people"

Quote

Ring Effects

Each time a player wins a conflict as the attacking player, he or she may resolve the ring effect associated with the contested ring’s element.

Here is the "May"

I can't argue against say forcing your opponent to resolve ring of void and you have no fate on your guys.

Here is the "May"

I can't argue against say forcing your opponent to resolve ring of void and you have no fate on your guys.

Does this mean that I was wrong in thinking that I could simply choose a character with no fate on? I had assumed that I did not need to follow the triggering rule as I would not be the triggering player, and that the whole of the Ring ability is effect and so must only be followed as much as it can.

I may not be thinking clearly about this!

Void and Water are the two double edged swords. Water can only ready a character or bow a character without fate. This can force them to bow their own character, or ready one of yours. Ring of Void requires you take a fate off of a character - if they are the only ones who have fate on their character then it will bite them.

I think milling is too far away to consider Ring of Earth. If milling becomes a thing then yeah, that too.

The problem with both of these is that I doubt they would make that selection to begin with, unless they were trying to prevent you from activating it - but seeing Hotaru or Toturi might clue them into the plan...

You could splash Phoenix so you can swap the contested ring first giving you a useful ring effect - or you would just use these guys on offense where they are likely to do a lot better anyway...

If you are choosing, you must make a choice that can change the game, so you can't choose a character with no fate on it. I would presume you can choose not to choose a character, if the ring effect says 'you may.'

About using the air ring to turn off the scorpion stronghold, I'm not sure how 'forcing your opponent to steal a fate from you with a ring' is better than 'letting scorpion take a fate from you with their stronghold ability.'

2 minutes ago, Soshi Nimue said:

You could splash Phoenix so you can swap the contested ring first giving you a useful ring effect - or you would just use these guys on offense where they are likely to do a lot better anyway...

Phoenix don't actually have a conflict card that lets you exchange the contested ring (yet). Their 'Know the World' event lets them swap a claimed one with an uncontested one, which might limit their options and force them to choose a ring they don't want, of course. There's also always Elemental Fury as a province, which could surprise them with an unwanted ring effect.

4 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

If you are choosing, you must make a choice that can change the game, so you can't choose a character with no fate on it. I would presume you can choose not to choose a character, if the ring effect says 'you may.'

About using the air ring to turn off the scorpion stronghold, I'm not sure how 'forcing your opponent to steal a fate from you with a ring' is better than 'letting scorpion take a fate from you with their stronghold ability.'

The ring effects do not have "may" in them. Once a Ring Effect is triggered it happens, whether it is good or bad. The only "may" part is that the winner may activate the Ring Effect when they win a conflict as the attacker. Hotaru and Toturi take that may away from the opponent. Still... the right situation is too far of a stretch to actually make any play for it...

If you are choosing, you must make a choice that can change the game, so you can't choose a character with no fate on it. I would presume you can choose not to choose a character, if the ring effect says 'you may.'

I thought that was only for the rules on triggering effects. I would not be triggering that and at the stage that the OP did there is the potential to change the game state if there is a character with fate anywhere on the board. I was reading it that the lack of a dash means that all of the Void ability is an effect and so will only complete what it can. Everyone does seem to be at odds with my thoughts though, and it has been a very long day...

FYI, there has already been a ruling on this:

https://fiveringsdb.com/cards/search?q=Toturi

As the attacker, you have the option to resolve the ring effect if you win. If it isn't to your benefit (For example, all of your dudes are Honorable, all of your opponent's dudes are dishonorable for Fire, You are the only one with Fate on characters for void, etc), you just choose not to resolve the effect. However, this can force the point if it is to the detriment of the attacker. However, the attacker then chooses, but it must do something.

If you win as an attacker with Hotaru/Toturi, you can resolve the ring once, but then choose not to resolve it a second time since their ability isn't a "Forced Reaction". Its at these places where you get the choice.

15 minutes ago, anfauglir said:

I thought that was only for the rules on triggering effects. I would not be triggering that and at the stage that the OP did there is the potential to change the game state if there is a character with fate anywhere on the board. I was reading it that the lack of a dash means that all of the Void ability is an effect and so will only complete what it can. Everyone does seem to be at odds with my thoughts though, and it has been a very long day...

RR page 14 - Ring Effects - Ring of Void: The Attacking Player chooses a character and removes 1 fate from that character.

RR page 4 - Choose - The word Choose indicates that one or more targets must be chosen in order to resolve an ability.

RR page 15-16 Target - bullet point 7 - A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability's effect could not effect the target at all.

When Ring of Void effect is triggered (either by choosing to as the Attacking Player when you win a conflict, or through any other means) a character who has fate must be selected if possible. If there are no characters with fate who can be selected only then does the ability fizzle without effect.

RR page 15-16 Target - bullet point 7 - A card is not an eligible.. .

Ah yeah, there you go... I had completely failed to think that through. Thank you - that is precisely what I was getting at, and what I was failing to remember.

I think the confusion arises from the Conflict Ring Effect card in the core set,w hich does use the word 'may' if I recall correctly. Simplified/incorrect text on unofficial documents I guess.

No, I was totally blanking the resolution steps and just fixating on it not being me who was triggering the ability... If I had worked through from that point I would have seen that there are steps to follow as the resolving player. The TLDR is that I am a tired old numbnuts...

So with Toturi as a defender, do both the losing attacker and the winning defending player each resolve the ring effect once?

Or does it just mean you get double ring effects when attacking with Toturi and single with defending (other player gets nothing)?

4 minutes ago, Akodo Tetsuo said:

So with Toturi as a defender, do both the losing attacker and the winning defending player each resolve the ring effect once?

The winning defender does not normally resolve the ring effect. Toturi does not allow you to resolve it for yourself. If you are attacking, you do get the ring resolved twice. Toturi can force the attacker to resolve the ring for the conflict they just lost. You as the defender still claim the ring.

6 minutes ago, Akodo Tetsuo said:

So with Toturi as a defender, do both the losing attacker and the winning defending player each resolve the ring effect once?

If the Attacking player wins the conflict - they have a choice to resolve the ring or not.

This is separate from Hotaru / Toruti's abilities. What Hot/Tor do is allow their player to trigger the ring effect if they claim the ring.

Thing is - you can only currently claim the ring in defense with Hot/Tor by winning in defense so the attacker would not be able to trigger the ring as well. This means Hot/Tor can force 1 activation if they win in defense.

If they win as the Attacker though - they get the ring activation twice. Once for winning as the attacker, and again with Hot/Tor's ability.