In order to end round one with four heroes plus two free allies, you need the following:

1) Sword-thain in your opening hand (and Arwen as one of your heroes)

2) Emery in your opening hand

3) Imrahil and two other allies in your discard.

Arwen + Emery gives you four cards in discard, one of which you can choose -- if Eowyn or Cirdan is the third spirit hero, that can go to five cards in discard, two of which are chosen. But it's not likely. Best case (Arwen-Cirdan-Elanor) has about a 17% chance of both Emery and Sword-Thain in the first eight cards, and only around 10% chance in the first six (when you have to decide if you'll mulligan) -- and even if those comes together, you either need Imrahil to be in the first eight or in the next three cards, *plus* two other allies to come out (probably in the Emery discard) who aren't Emery or Imrahil. I'd expect that to come together 1 time in 20, if that.

Most of the time, using Caldara on turn one will give you two heroes and two allies drawn from your first eight cards -- and you can never use Caldara again. Good for a fast start? Sure. Overpowering? Not hardly. Since it's once per game, the temptation would be to stall until you have a Sword-Thain and Imrahil already in play so that you can get your four allies, but until then you're limping along with a 2-wp spirit hero with no special powers and definitely not being aggro.

As 13nrv said, and believe me, he's probably one of the best players in this game, with tons of experience and very good decks created who played thousands of games, mainly against big nightmarish ones (basically the kind of player ffg should listen to.. In order to make the game a better experience...) (and i'm sure he's not the only one out there that might gave very good advices to those designers.. wich seems to got some Deaf Trouble on many ffg games apparently...)

So, surely I'm going to just ignore those erratas. Especially in a cooperative game !

It's mainly non-sense, especially when they "hit" that hard where it's not needed (hama nor caldara for exemple)

And believe me, i hate Caldara's deck wich i found to be too good ! (But i can see and understand that she's needed to this game !) (like boromir, glorfindel 2 and denethor 2 are needed)

As i said above : those heroes and archetype are a necessary evil in order to face the hardest quests in the game !

The Hama problem was the Thicket, not hama himself ! He is (was) an interesting hero, with that nerf, he's not anymore, At all ! he just cost nine with the Rohan trait like Dori tactic is just a dwarf sleeping in my cardbox... I really don't get why he has been sentenced to death...

So sorry, but not with me... And hopefully not on any of our events !

Coz yes ! FFG ! We love this game ! And make it to live here for you during our events ! We got a very nice, friendly and strong community around your game here !

So, someday, it would be nice of you to listen to the right people wich actually knows your game better than you (and i'm defenatly not talking about myself here, coz they're are at least 4 people here that might be those perfect person for you to get advice from). With strong experience from it, and let them helps you in order to improve your game, and not just make bad call and ruins 3 archetypes in a single non-sense swing...

Here, they're not making good works or changes, they're mainly penalizing the players that likes to play the hardest challege in the game...

And has other people says : Boosting some cards up, is probably one the best move you could ever make... But apparently, you're not that kind of designers...

7 minutes ago, Aorakis said:

Here they're not making good works or changes, they're mainly penalizing the players that like to play the hardest challege in the game....

As someone who likes to play the hardest challenges of the game, i don't see it that way. With these errata, now they're even harder! I've already figured out how to beat them with Caldara and Boromir anyway. Where'e the fun in doing it over and over? Now we have a new challenge.

Are you sure you aren't just telling yourself that because of your guilt in causing the errata?

I've done plenty of critiquing of the errata already (not here). it could've been done better. But as far as I'm concerned I have little to do with the Boromir/Caldara/Hama errata. I may have a popular Boromir deck but it's not like his power would've remained hidden without me around.

3 minutes ago, Seastan said:

As someone who likes to play the hardest challenges of the game, i don't see it that way. With these errata, now they're even harder! I've already figured out how to beat them with Caldara and Boromir anyway. Where'e the fun in doing it over and over? Now we have a new challenge.

Good to see that developers please some players.

But not me, i prefer new cards in order to have new challenges or different challenge.

And once again, i prefer errata on weaker card in order to use it on harder challenge ...

And last point, my current life don't allow me to play as much as before. So when a new NM is released, i like to play it with my Caldara deck and have a good time. So new challenge for you but bad news for me.

so except for Thicket of spears : you really believe hama needed a rework that hard ?

For what ? Feint ? Foe Hammer ? Wait no longer ?

Are those cards killing the game or making the 1000% win on every quest once you plays him with those cards... ?

I'm defenatly not sure...

Hama as been butchered here, not reworked...

Just make that Thicket out of play once played, problem solved ! (for all those crying players that found it soooo broken that they could also just NOT playing that combo... ?)

and Hama would still be alive (wich he is... As i'm not going to apply this poo...r rework)

So no, that kind of reworks are not good no... not at all


About Boromir, i've played it 3 times, found him boring and easy to play, and i just put it back into my cardbox.

But i reckon he was useful, as caldara !


And here, i'm looking even further, with fear...

As the next might be what ? Denethor 2 ? Wich makes tons of Flash Decks possible with that Steward of gondor ?

So what ? Will they finaly nerf an other coreset cards 100000 years after ? When it's not even necessary needed ? Or will they just cut Denethor's head off ?

And then ? Who's next ? Arwen (2 ressources is too strong) ? Eowyn 2 (6 cost is too less) ? Glorfindel 2 (5 COST ? WHAT ???) and Elrond (too much heal here...) Gandalf (who's that guy with those dragon Stats ?) perhaps ?

And surely Aragorn Tactic, wich is probably one of the O.P.iest hero of the game got a Clock Ticking above his head for sure...

FFG got plenty of smarter solutions to make this game better, they chose the axe and the blood bath...

1 minute ago, 13nrv said:

Good to see that developers please some players.

But not me, i prefer new cards in order to have new challenges or different challenge.

And once again, i prefer errata on weaker card in order to use it on harder challenge ...

And last point, my current life don't allow me to play as much as before. So when a new NM is released, i like to play it with my Caldara deck and have a good time. So new challenge for you but bad news for me.

Objectively speaking, the hardest possible challenges the game has to offer shouldn't be able to all be beaten with the same deck in a couple attempts right? You may have less time to play now - so do I. But I disagree that the solution is to have one deck that answers everything. The hardest possible challenges should reward devoted deckbuilding and experienced gameplay in my opinion, even if that leaves me out.

3 minutes ago, Aorakis said:

so except for Thicket of spears : you really believe hama needed a rework that hard ?

I was sad to see Hama get hit. I would have preferred something more like what has been suggested - remove Thicket from the game when played. But someone else mentioned something I had not considered: the existence of Hama severely limits what hind of Tactics events can be printed. Tactics events can never be too strong, because what if someone plays Hama and uses it every turn? I think he has been quite damaging to sphere actually.

No, Boromir's power is not hidden. Nor has it been secret for all the FAQs since he was released. Why they chose to take him down now is a mystery to me. As for other errata:

At ringsdb.com, the oldest deck with Wingfoot/Doughty Ranger combo is this one:

http://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/5519/doughty-eleanor-combo-1.0

Unless there's an earlier version, maybe Otter should take a bow. But the Wingfoot errata is pretty reasonable, I thought.

For We Are Not Idle, again no secret for a long, long time, I'll give credit to Rouxxor and his Solo First Turn Win. Very creative, but it was inevitable it would leave to grief.

Caldara's downfall was probably the ruling that Prince Imrahil ally counts for her ability.

Your Hama's Thicket deck is one of the most popular Hama/Thicket decks on ringsdb (and has a youtube video for it), but it's not the oldest -- nor was this a secret either. It's a combo of an old hero with a core set card, for crying out loud. Still, it's Amarthiul and the Dunedain cards that really made this practical.

Atura Slash has the most-liked Out of the Wild deck, but doesn't talk about recurring Out of the Wild to nerf the deck in the description. It seems like there was a deck (blog post?) that talked about removing the deck entirely, but I can't remember who or where that was.

2 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

Atura Slash has the most-liked Out of the Wild deck, but doesn't talk about recurring Out of the Wild to nerf the deck in the description. It seems like there was a deck (blog post?) that talked about removing the deck entirely, but I can't remember who or where that was.

I'll take the heat for the Out of the Wild errata. But unless you were running it it an infinite combo deck, that card just got better.

1 minute ago, Seastan said:

I'll take the heat for the Out of the Wild errata. But unless you were running it it an infinite combo deck, that card just got better.

Thats right and I really like the fact it's just better now

3 minutes ago, Seastan said:

I was sad to see Hama get hit. I would have preferred something more like what has been suggested - remove Thicket from the game when played. But someone else mentioned something I had not considered: the existence of Hama severely limits what hind of Tactics events can be printed. Tactics events can never be too strong, because what if someone plays Hama and uses it every turn? I think he has been quite damaging to sphere actually.

If he played it for free from the discard I could see that. But since he has to discard a card *and* pay full price for the event, in a sphere with little card draw and little resource acceleration I don't know how much of a problem it really is.

For my money, the best Tactics event released since the core is Wait No Longer, and Hama is perfect for recurring it in a solo deck. If you can keep hitting enemies and killing them, you'd never have to reveal a card in staging. OTOH, since it's solo, I don't think that possibility should bother anyone from FFG.

well, to me, even if i reckon the big work and genious you bring into your decks, i defenatly find it harder to have a deck that might fight most of the quests in the game, that just make a deck, that is going to be specifically build against a quest. Wich is to me, somehow easier to beat that quest once you just think your deck against it, and then you never play that deck coz he's not good for the next quests...

It's defenatly two different schools.

But in none of those, these kind of hard nerfs were needed.

As i said, in our last event : No Caldara, No Boromir, and just One Hama with no spears...

Not like they were making this game bad right ? It's only a choice, to play them or not.

And are ffg tired to think that a Co-Op game, need that much of hard nerfs... ?

It's not like we were in Star Wars Destiny were FN and Captain Phasma were destroying all fun in the game and during tournaments...

LOTR is a co op game... I really don't get it...

So to me, like they say in "THE NEW STAR !" Tv show : ITS A NO !

Something unusual about the Boromir and Caldara changes is that they don't seem aimed at any particular OP combo, but rather they specifically designed to reduce the general power of the card. This seems to be an entirely new approach.

1 hour ago, GrandSpleen said:

Caldara's just an aggro hero now. That's fine by me.

You can still get a turn 1 Sword-Thained Emery (get 1 resource per Arwen's ability to pay for Sword-thain) and end round 1 planning phase with Caldara in discard, spirit Imrahil on the table and in hero status (so, 4 heroes) plus 2 additional spirit allies also on the table for free. Honestly, if you think Caldara is no longer powerful....

She's a little more like Galdor now. And spirit Denethor. Aiming to get you set up early. Biggest impact in the first rounds of the game. Set up, get ahead of the encounter deck, and stay there.

edit: in fact, resurrection now seems like an optional include in a Caldara deck. If you're getting Imrahil in return and you're already using Sword-thain, you've got 4 heroes on the table, plenty of resources. Fortune or Fate doesn't really do much for you other than bringing back Caldara's meager stats.

Yep, they nerfed Caldara and KILLED Fortune or Fate

3 minutes ago, NathanH said:

Something unusual about the Boromir and Caldara changes is that they don't seem aimed at any particular OP combo, but rather they specifically designed to reduce the general power of the card. This seems to be an entirely new approach.

Yes. This is one of my critiques of the errata. If part of the intention was to nerf the power decks, then it seems pointless to only target half of them. Erestor/LeDenethor and Elrond/Vilya decks were right up there with those two.

11 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Objectively speaking, the hardest possible challenges the game has to offer shouldn't be able to all be beaten with the same deck in a couple attempts right? You may have less time to play now - so do I. But I disagree that the solution is to have one deck that answers everything. The hardest possible challenges should reward devoted deckbuilding and experienced gameplay in my opinion, even if that leaves me out.

Caldara can answer to many challenge ... But the answer is always complicated and need some reflexion. Each game is intensive.

You know my Fast Outland deck, i don't play it anymore ... Brainless ... Draw/Ressource/Put ally/Quest/Kill Ennemies and again until win. Well as you said no challenge and so boring.

Caldara is really different from that. Each game is totally different. I need concentration on each game to choose the good option. The gameplay of Caldara need experience and skills.

For the devoted deckbuilding, i will say point of view ... I build a deck around an idea and after i play it against a quest to test it. But i never build against a scenario except specific ones (like Dol Guldur NM, Rhosgobel NM or Lonely Mountain NM).

So i don't want errata, i want new cards for new idea.

New Caldara decks be like:

The Song of Requiem

Main Deck

Hero (1)
Caldara (The Blood of Gondor)

Ally (0)

Attachment (0)

Event (4)
3x Desperate Alliance (On the Doorstep)
1x Justice Shall Be Done (A Storm on Cobas Haven)

Player Side Quest (0)

1 Heroes, 4 Cards
Cards up to A Storm on Cobas Haven

Deck built on http://ringsdb.com.

Main Strategy: Give Caldara to someone else and call it a day. Don't waste precious heroes' spots on the decks that actually matter

4 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Yes. This is one of my critiques of the errata. If part of the intention was to nerf the power decks, then it seems pointless to only target half of them. Erestor/LeDenethor and Elrond/Vilya decks were right up there with those two.

Totally agree with that !

Gandalf decks are also powerfull, Noldor too ... Doomed deck with lore Aragorn are very strong. I win against most of NM quest with these decks ... And often easily than Caldara or a Boromir deck.

8 minutes ago, Seastan said:

I was sad to see Hama get hit. I would have preferred something more like what has been suggested - remove Thicket from the game when played. But someone else mentioned something I had not considered: the existence of Hama severely limits what hind of Tactics events can be printed. Tactics events can never be too strong, because what if someone plays Hama and uses it every turn? I think he has been quite damaging to sphere actually.

Well, i found Oath of Eorl Pretty Bunker and same for that 4 cost (don't recall the name) that makes a hero (or all heroes if in valour) to don't get bowed during the combat phase to be much better than a ticket of spear, and let's say it, i never saw those card to be a problem with hama. Same with wait no longer, wich is a pretty awesome card that i like playing a lot.

This Hama has been butchered way too hard in my opinion... he defenatly wasn't the biggest LOTR problem i reckon... and defenatly don't need that hard Joffrey's Lanister Execution...

And as many mention... If it's strong or boring, just don't play it ! not like there wasn't tons of awesome stuff to do in this game

I.M.O, Heroes like Bilbo, Dori, Bolger, are a biggest concern in this game as they should be revised even just a bit ! (even if yes, for brainstormer like you, who likes turning mud to gold, those kind of bad (let's say it) cards are a good challenge to be made from)

So as other mentions, i think ffg should start boosting some cards, nor at least heroes up... It might make the same job, by opening wider the building possibilities, wich i'm sure you would love aswell

If anyone is interested I used GeckoTH's templates to create the cards in question with their updated errata. Feel free to download and print them out or whatever.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fkfgqqof6tg3kr/FAQ v1.9 Card Errata.rar?dl=0

I'm not very vocal on here anymore but just wanted to add my two cents. I definitely agree with those saying these changes are overkill and that the actual offending cards (Thicket of Spears, Fortune and Fate etc) should have received errata rather than the hero cards. As Dalestephenson listed, an absolute TON of decks are affected by these changes and now every single player who uses any of those three heroes needs to rethink any decks he may have them in and whether or not they are still worth including/running. To do this to three separate, quite popular heroes is quite a big deal and seems like one of the biggest changes to the game we have ever received.. doing this during such a quiet period and such a lull in news or new content seems like awful timing as well.. rubbing salt in the wound if you will.

To be completely honest I too feel like they are not playtesting enough and are also not taking harder quests and nightmare scenarios into consideration. Sometimes you need to use everything at your disposal to even stand a chance against harder nightmare quests and removing several powerful combos from the game while also seriously nerfing three heroes (even when not running said combos) doesn't help in this regard at all.
Hama is definitely hit the hardest because even if you aren't using the Thicket of Spears combo Hama is not at the same level he once was and has been nerfed across the board. Why they did this instead of simply nerfing Thicket of Spears I have no idea.

Also the main problem with the whole "don't like the new changes? don't play with them!" outlook is that many players of the game, myself included, will look at this as cheating and/or playing the game incorrectly. Regardless of the fact that the game is co-op or single player most players still want to play the game as intended without breaking or ignoring any rules. Achieving victory while bending or breaking the rules is for many not a real victory at all.
On top of this new player cards and new scenarios are obviously going to be designed with all past errata in mind so ignoring errata on certain player cards may really mess with the game allowing further unintended combos or interactions.

6 hours ago, Network57 said:

So now that we've errata'd Boromir, can we nerf some of the anti-Boromir (but really screw over everybody else worse) encounter effects they've had to design around him since Cycle 1?

Also couldn't agree with the above more, if strong heroes and combos that have been around forever are going to receive errata does this mean that future quests (or at least harder ones and nightmare packs) are no longer going to feature as many encounter cards that directly mess with or target these player archetypes and combos? What about already existing quests and encounter cards that do so?

All of this being said I do need to add that I agree with and value the errata given to Wingfoot, We Are Not Idle, Out of the Wild (this is great as it actually boosts Keen as Lances as well which is used in the same victory display deck type) and Wandering Took. Wingfoot is still a great card just not totally broken when given to Eleanor and We Are Not Idle and Out of the Wild are still great cards just cannot be abused anymore.

4 minutes ago, 13nrv said:

Totally agree with that !

Gandalf decks are also powerfull, Noldor too ... Doomed deck with lore Aragorn are very strong. I win against most of NM quest with these decks ... And often easily than Caldara or a Boromir deck.

My fear is going that way.

What will happen' when they will finaly nerf and rework those ones aswell ?

coz the list is long : Gandalf, Erestor, Denethor 2, Galadriel (she's laughing at threat right ?), Aragorn LORE and TACTIC, Elrond...

It could end in a pure non-sense butchering fest...

Reworking some cards ok, butchering heroes and entire archetypes... Is defenatly not a good way of thinking / doing...

4 hours ago, Aorakis said:

I'm not going to be polite, nor make friends, and I honestly don't mind, 'cause let's say it... FFG and designers like Caleb are poison to their own games.

I have no idea if Caleb or anyone else from FFG will read this thread, but on the off-chance they do I just want to say that Aorakis is definitely not representative of the community in general. Personally, I disagree with two of the errata, and I do find them disappointing in that respect, but I still think in general that Caleb and FFG are doing a fantastic job with this game.

I wouldn't normally feel the need to make a point of this, but I wanted to present a very definite counterpoint to this unwarranted and over the top vitriol, so again, if Caleb or anyone else at FFG reads this: Ignore the haters, you're doing fine.