I've got a player who is making an Apprentice Wizard character, and we're confused as to how to spend the skill advances. The character has 3 skill advances and one specialization to spend, and according to Tome of Mysteries, this character will begin already having the Channeling and Spellcraft advanced skills.

+ Can the Apprentice Wizard use a skill advance at character creation to train Channeling or Spellcraft?

+ And more generally, can a character both purchase an advanced skill, and then also train it during character creation, at the cost of two skill advances?

From the RAW on page 30 of the rulebook:

Each career card lists a number of skills associated with that career. These are
the skills the character is allowed to train or assign a specialisation
for based on the number of creation points invested.

So unless the Advanced Skill is listed in the career sheet I wouldn't let him train it (I don't have the initiate wizard career sheet with me at the moment). It's already a boon that the wizard acquires those advanced skills for free.

As for the second question, if he has access to the advanced skill in his character sheet he should be able to acquire and then train it for 2 character creation points. This is supported by the Errata/FAQ on page 5:

If an Initiate wishes to invoke blessings early on, he should invest
creation points during character creation to acquire Invocation.

Hope that helps.

Yes (wizards have both these skills on their skill list, would have been strange if they didn't ) and yes.

From the FAQ:

Acquiring an advanced skill does not count against the training
limit imposed by character rank. This means a character can both
acquire and train an advanced skill within the same character rank.

No.

From my understanding of the character creation rules, at time of creation a player can:

1. Train any basic skills that appear on their character sheet/career once per skill (and allowing for their points build)

2. Buy advanced skills that appear on their character sheet/career (allowing for their points build)

3. specialize a number of trained skills (i.e. basic) based on their points build

I thought it stated you couldn't 'train' an advanced skill other than buying it so it'd be as if you had another untrained basic skill on your character sheet. This doesn't include any skills you receive free based on race or career though.

the rules for advancing a character don't apply to creating a character, just some advancing rules, like the one Gruntl quoted, do reference character creation and how it impacts advancement (not creation).

keltheos said:

And this is ultimately what I am trying to figure out - are the advancement rules changed in some way for character creation? I am having trouble finding a definitive answer one way or the other. Reading this thread, I think both sides have good arguments.

My instincts tell me that the designers didn't intend for a player to both purchase, and then train an Advanced skill at character creation .

Right. There's character creation and then there's character advancement . Looking at them as their own components and not like creation's designed to work like advancement is the RAW way to go. They may share similarities in some areas, but how you train starting skills vs. advancing skills is not one of them.

Well, that depends on how you interpret the rules Keltheos. The rules say that you are not allowed to train a skill more than once during character creation. Training and acquiring skills are two different things. They do not explicitly state that you may not train a skill that has been acquired at char creation. Neither do they limit the number of "skill point" you can spend on one skill.

For reference:

Depending on the number of creation points invested, characters
will have a number of skills they may choose to train. Each career
card lists a number of skills associated with that career. These are
the skills the character is allowed to train or assign a specialisation
for based on the number of creation points invested.

If he selects a basic skill to train, the player places a checkmark
in the corresponding box in the trained column on the character
sheet. If he selects an advanced skill, his character acquires the
skill, but it is not yet trained. Acquiring an advanced skill allows a
character to attempt checks based on that skill as if it were a basic
skill. The player writes the advanced skill in the appropriate section
of the character sheet.

If the character’s race provides him with the ability to train an additional
skill, the player chooses which skill to train at this time.
If the player invested enough creation points to earn specialisations,
he chooses those specialisations now. A character can only
acquire specialisations for skills he has trained.

During character creation, no single skill can be trained more
than once.

I think you're supposed to be able to both acquire and train advanced skills during character generation, but it is open for interpretation.

Indeed. I'd read that as a whole that seemed to imply you could train/buy a skill once only during character creation. Maybe their intention was to allow both for advanced skills, but it certianly could have been clearer.

I thought 'acquiring' an advanced skill allowed the player to treat it as a basic skill, which would imply he could train it even at character creation?

The key word there is 'imply'.

Emailed Jay and he very quickly replied (thanks, Jay!):

Question: During creation, can a player buy a character's advanced skill AND train it (spending two skill points, of course)? The rules aren't quite clear on how to interpret it.

Jay's Reply: Yes. Acquiring an advanced skill is separate and distinct from training an advanced skill. If the advanced skill is available to the career (ie, on the career sheet) the player may invest 1 creation point to acquire the advanced skill, then invest 1 creation point to train that advanced skill.

A character may not, however, use creation points to acquire or train a skill not available to his career those require advances, which are earned through play, not during character creation.

Then, because I was feeling randy I sent him a quick follow-up, which he almost instantly replied to:

Quick follow-up. If that's the case (spending 2 points on 1 skill), can a character spend 2 points to train a basic skill twice? I'm 99.9% sure that's a no in the rules, but wanted to check.

From Jay: Your instinct is correct – you cannot spend 2 creation points to train a basic skill twice during character creation. Starting characters (with zero experience) are technically Rank 1 characters. Each skill may only be trained once per rank (WFRP core rulebook, p 35)

So, my group's interpretation was incorrect, you can buy And train an advanced skill at character creation.

Good to know. Seems Jay/FFG are really quick at answering emails, we should all just mail the rules questions immediately instead of discussing them here

Outstanding. Thanks for posting that email reply!