47 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

You don't have to take LRS, and if you like taking TL up close, then don't take them, but I think the idea is that:

A) it's free

B) It allows for a alpha strike with the HLC as you will have the TL from turn 1 for the first turn of combat

C) This free us your action for defense

D) Combined with Expertise, you could have a fully modified, 4 die shot on the initial pass, with a Focus for defense (hopefully at Range 3 for 3 dice)

So while LRS has downsides, it looks like the upsides far outweigh them on these ships. Further, if you ever need to disengage, SLAM can make that happen fast, and then on the next 'off' turn, you can TL again before swinging in.

I haven’t been using expertise (CS instead) and I still find using the focus for offense combined with linked battery or TL more useful than the token for defense.

16 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Harpoons are NOT more powerful. They're both four dice secondary weapons

Gchip harpoons may be more powerful. Lucky crit harpoons may be more powerful (also may blow up in your face)

Otherwise hlc has more mods since you don't need your TL for OS-1

HLC: 4 dices

Harpoon: 4 dices + extra

Harpoons are much more powerful than you make it sound. At minimum it can make the harpooned ship waste an action to get rid of the condition. On that wasted action there is a 50% chance for 1 extra dmg. ON TOP of that it can do extra dmg on crits or when the ship is destroyed. Yes your own ships can take splash dmg if you are not careful but IMO the reward is higher than the risk. There is a reason why the current best imperial build uses them...

Unless i'm mistaken you can still use the TL to mod the harpoon dices, no? Not counting upgrades both will have 1 mod on average.

Just now, Thormind said:

HLC: 4 dices

Harpoon: 4 dices + extra

Harpoons are much more powerful than you make it sound. At minimum it can make the harpooned ship waste an action to get rid of the condition. On that wasted action there is a 50% chance for 1 extra dmg. ON TOP of that it can do extra dmg on crits or when the ship is destroyed. Yes your own ships can take splash dmg if you are not careful but IMO the reward is higher than the risk. There is a reason why the current best imperial build uses them...

Unless i'm mistaken you can still use the TL to mod the harpoon dices, no? Not counting upgrades both will have 1 mod on average.

You can. BUT: Harpoons require you to get a lock, which for low PS ships can mean they just don't shoot at all, whereas HLC can be shot regardless and can use Linked Batteries to pick up a reroll giving them mostly full mods off just move-and-focus.

It's by no means a done deal that harpoons are better.

16 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

Mangler and Harpoon seems like a winning combo.

Rho Squadron Pilot with...

Crack Shot

Harpoon

Mangler Cannon

Flechette Cannon

LRS

XG-1

33 pts each. Three of them make a list.

Flechettes can be subbed for Linked Batteries if desired (might be the better call TBH).

Highly flexible loadout. Really nasty alpha potential but still has great damage output without ordnance. One ship can Harpoon and other two can Mangler to get that condition off. Can swap next round. Or all three can shoot Harpoons at once. Basically do whatever the situation calls for. Tons of flexibility...

EDIT: You can also do two of these and TC Soontir or Adaptability Vader. That sounds pretty good.

I really like that build. You can also substitude crack shot for trick shot and switch the flechette for a tractor or a Jammer to lower the cost. Solid 31 points:

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You can. BUT: Harpoons require you to get a lock, which for low PS ships can mean they just don't shoot at all, whereas HLC can be shot regardless and can use Linked Batteries to pick up a reroll giving them mostly full mods off just move-and-focus.

It's by no means a done deal that harpoons are better.

Like i explained in my earlier post, it's much less difficult for a low PS ship to get a TL when it can SLAM.

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Like i explained in my earlier post, it's much less difficult for a low PS ship to get a TL when it can SLAM.

But it then faces the issue that its locked target has to have gone slow enough that it remains in the missile band, which can be similarly problematic.

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Like i explained in my earlier post, it's much less difficult for a low PS ship to get a TL when it can SLAM.

And for the higher PS ship you just slammed towards to get your TL ist less difficult to get out of your arc.

2 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

And for the higher PS ship you just slammed towards to get your TL ist less difficult to get out of your arc.

Or just to Range 1 where you have no shot. The great thing about the HLC is that you can go slow as you like because of no TL requirement and if they jump to R1 you at least get 3 dice with re-roll + Focus, which is at least enough to do some work against most ships. It's even less bad if you've got Crack Shot on top if that, who's absolutely isn't a viable option with missile boats.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

Or just to Range 1 where you have no shot. The great thing about the HLC is that you can go slow as you like because of no TL requirement and if they jump to R1 you at least get 3 dice with re-roll + Focus, which is at least enough to do some work against most ships. It's even less bad if you've got Crack Shot on top if that, who's absolutely isn't a viable option with missile boats.

Yes your target can arc dodge you but guessing what your opponent will do is part of the game :-). It's still better than not being able to get a TL at all. Plus That possibility you have can be used to bluff your opponent...

Like i said earlier i still havent decided what version i like the most. I just think it's a very close call and on paper it's hard to say which version is better.

After seing that build, i think it's just amazing for so many reasons:

The cost is low. You have both offense and control in the same ship and can adapt to many situations (you can change tractor for jam or flechette to taste). Mangler canon helps trigger the harpooned condition. You have no range 1 hole. You could also switch LRS for advanced SLAM and do a "SLAM + reload + tractor" turn at the cost of having a harder time to get the harpoon off.

Maaaan people are spending a lot on these things. I really don't think it's justified for 7 health 2 agility and no out of arc shooting.

I still think my first go-to build is likely to be:

Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28
Nu Squadron Pilot - XG-1 Assault Configuration, Tractor Beam, Linked Battery - 22
Nu Squadron Pilot - XG-1 Assault Configuration, Tractor Beam, Linked Battery - 22

I've had a lot of fun and success with x7 Deltas in the last couple of months. They make incredible blockers, and the ability to use a Tractor Beam to push an enemy ship away after blocking them so the Delta gets a range one attack with no reply can be outrageous. Previously the Deltas have been running with a TIE/D Vessery, but unsurprisingly he has a big target painted on him and costs a lot of points. Two Nus seems like a reasonable alternative.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Maaaan people are spending a lot on these things. I really don't think it's justified for 7 health 2 agility and no out of arc shooting.

It is when you can keep shooting again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again until you blow up.

But you can do that for 22 points, and get 2 more ships.

17 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yes your target can arc dodge you but guessing what your opponent will do is part of the game :-). It's still better than not being able to get a TL at all. Plus That possibility you have can be used to bluff your opponent...

Like i said earlier i still havent decided what version i like the most. I just think it's a very close call and on paper it's hard to say which version is better.

Its not about guessing vs not guessing, it's about making it hard on your opponent to counter your move vs making it easy. It's not about bluffing, because if you're equipped for a SLAM+harpoon, your alternative if you can't get the lock is a 2-dice primary. Put commonly played ships on the table and see figure out the area available where you can SLAM and pick up a lock and they can make a move that doesn't give them access to your blind spot with one repositioning move.

37 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Like i said earlier i still havent decided what version i like the most. I just think it's a very close call and on paper it's hard to say which version is better.

Here's the thing though: we're NOT theory-crafting here. Biophysical's conclusion (and I mostly agree with it) is based on ACTUAL game play using the Gunboat. And we have decided, based on dozens of games (across a few of us all playing different builds) that the Cannon Gunboat is just better competitively speaking.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't decide for themselves when they get their hands on the actual release. Go nuts and try a bunch of stuff out! Just keep in mind that we're ALREADY been there and done that thanks to VASSAL, and Bio has decided to give everyone a 'heads up' on what his conclusions are. They are his opinions based on his experiences, and I'm sure others will have different opinions (and different experiences too).

My prediction is that when the Gunboat hits actual tables and gets tournament play, there will be all kinds of builds and people will try a ton of different stuff. After the dust settles though, you will see this as the most competitive (and therefore most popular) gunboat build:

Rho w/ crackshot, XG-1, HLC, linked battery & LRS.

Not saying other builds won't be good too. Just that this is the one that is the most efficient and the easiest to use. And also, it slots super easy into a TON of imperial lists! So for those reasons, its gonna see some successes and become popular.

But really, I have to give FFG credit on this ship (and believe me, I don't have a very high opinion of our designer's abilities...). But not only is the Gunboat a ton of fun to fly, its actually quite good and I have no doubt it will see lots of tournament play.

It's not that close a call, and I *haven't* tested the HLC, but I'd expect it to be better. It should be, it's costing 5 points more.

I would however, expect spending the minimum possible to be better than either. These seem firmly designed to be efficiency ships, so like the B Wing aces, throwing lots of points at them is going to be good money after bad - you'd be better spending less and getting More Ship.

11 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

But really, I have to give FFG credit on this ship (and believe me, I don't have a very high opinion of our designer's abilities...). But not only is the Gunboat a ton of fun to fly, its actually quite good and I have no doubt it will see lots of tournament play.

Agree with pretty much everything you've said there. @blade_mercurial. Being able to fire a missile after SLAMing with OS-1 is nice and all, but the Reload mechanic (especially combined with the Target Lock requirement for OS-1 and most ordnance) seems... clunky... at best. I have full faith in @Biophysical and despite not playing with the Gunboat myself yet (or even listbuilding in earnest, I'm waiting until I get these bad boys in hand) I think he's bang on the money when he says the action economy simply isn't there to really leverage the mechanic, and certainly not in a manner that would out-perform the XG1 Cannon/Linked Battery versions.

It could have really done with a K-turn as well.

27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Maaaan people are spending a lot on these things. I really don't think it's justified for 7 health 2 agility and no out of arc shooting.

Personally, I think slamming and firing will be a lot of fun, whether it's powerful or not.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Its not about guessing vs not guessing, it's about making it hard on your opponent to counter your move vs making it easy. It's not about bluffing, because if you're equipped for a SLAM+harpoon, your alternative if you can't get the lock is a 2-dice primary. Put commonly played ships on the table and see figure out the area available where you can SLAM and pick up a lock and they can make a move that doesn't give them access to your blind spot with one repositioning move.

Not all ships are arc-dodgers, though. I have no clue how this thing will perform in high-level tournament play. In my local meta, though, I expect it'll shake things up quite a bit.

25 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Not all ships are arc-dodgers, though. I have no clue how this thing will perform in high-level tournament play. In my local meta, though, I expect it'll shake things up quite a bit.

They aren't all arc dodgers, but most good ships have access to some kind of boost or Barrel Roll, and large base ships don't have a hard time hitting Range 1 without any kind of repositioning (in the scenerio this conversation started with, which is a missile boat SLAMming forward to grab a Target Lock) against a ship that moves after it).

1 hour ago, Celestial Lizards said:

It is when you can keep shooting again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again until you blow up.

any ship with a cannon slot can fire it as many times as they wish

don't even need to reload

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

HLC: 4 dices

Harpoon: 4 dices + extra

Harpoons are much more powerful than you make it sound. At minimum it can make the harpooned ship waste an action to get rid of the condition. On that wasted action there is a 50% chance for 1 extra dmg. ON TOP of that it can do extra dmg on crits or when the ship is destroyed. Yes your own ships can take splash dmg if you are not careful but IMO the reward is higher than the risk. There is a reason why the current best imperial build uses them...

Unless i'm mistaken you can still use the TL to mod the harpoon dices, no? Not counting upgrades both will have 1 mod on average.

again, not that simple

"extra" only happens AFTER it was set up by a prior harpoon missile attack and only AFTER you then roll an uncancelled crit result through the same target.

the gunboat simply isn't built to get good, reliable use of the harpoon missile. Contrast with SCURRG/Vaksai/Kim, which can all easily carry deadeye (without spending extra points on being a gunboat) and can trigger g-chip crits. They don't have to worry about low PS locks at all AND they get guaranteed crit results.

if you use your TL to mod your harpoon, you have to reaquire your TL. If you fire a harpoon, you have to reload it the following round. Now you have to somehow get two actions just to fire the missile again in the same round, and if you do (with PTL) then you're not getting full mods. A linked HLC gets a re-roll and an easy focus action to full mods, but can also fire the HLC even if it doesn't get actions to reload/target-lock.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

They aren't all arc dodgers, but most good ships have access to some kind of boost or Barrel Roll, and large base ships don't have a hard time hitting Range 1 without any kind of repositioning (in the scenerio this conversation started with, which is a mussile boat SLAMming forward to grab a Target Lock) against a ship that moves after it).

Hm...that may be an issue. I still want to try Colonel Jendon with ST-321, and see if that would help. You have to fly close to Jendon to pass the lock, but then again, you shouldn't need to get a new lock every turn, either.

Mostly, I just think a Lambda flanked by a couple Missile Boats will be a fun Cygnus Spaceworks alternative to the normally SFS-dominated Imperial lists!

my main issue with HLC on gunboats is it doesnt play into either of the gunboat's SLAM gimicks, which it clearly has to abuse because of its lack of turnaround moves.

You'd get 1 maybe2 depending on how fast people dive your face HLC shots off before you'd have to corkscrew off to turn around AND get a turn without someone diving your face again to get the HLC off. I obviously havnt tried it since i dont play vassal but i dont see you turning around with enough space to move forward again and not have someone in R1 without burning 2-3 turns to zip to the other side of the board first. Gunboats are fast but not THAT fast, any other fast ship could tail it fast enough to stop that 1fwd after the SLAM turns from being R2-3.

Wasabi ....er i mean Karsabi on the other hand could totally get it off.

Fully willing to be proven wrong as i love being able to spam HLCs, but imo the only ship that can actually spam them is the Scyk (which goes pop too easy to bother and as a result NEEDS to use evade actions so no mods)

My feel on the Gunboat so far is that you use it as a slowroll platform with a weird K turn, and the SLAM thing is a gimmick and a way to clear space to turn around and get LRS locks back.

11 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

my main issue with HLC on gunboats is it doesnt play into either of the gunboat's SLAM gimicks, which it clearly has to abuse because of its lack of turnaround moves.

You'd get 1 maybe2 depending on how fast people dive your face HLC shots off before you'd have to corkscrew off to turn around AND get a turn without someone diving your face again to get the HLC off. I obviously havnt tried it since i dont play vassal but i dont see you turning around with enough space to move forward again and not have someone in R1 without burning 2-3 turns to zip to the other side of the board first. Gunboats are fast but not THAT fast, any other fast ship could tail it fast enough to stop that 1fwd after the SLAM turns from being R2-3.

Wasabi ....er i mean Karsabi on the other hand could totally get it off.

Fully willing to be proven wrong as i love being able to spam HLCs, but imo the only ship that can actually spam them is the Scyk (which goes pop too easy to bother and as a result NEEDS to use evade actions so no mods)

Lieutenant Wasabi!

but yeah, he will give you SLAM gimmicks galore. If not, you're still making use of the gunboat's double cannon gimmick as it is the only ship that can link its cannon in the game

another good feature of the HLC boat is that you won't need that many shots. Between LRS and crackshot (on Rhos), you're getting a rather ridiculous amount of damage out in just one round of concentrated fire. You could actually and very easily one-round an auzzy (except in the one case where it's Low and people figure out to put Selflessness on Jess, but if all she has is DTF then the wookie is kinda ******)

I preordered triple boats, so I'm definitely running triple HLC with Wasabi at the helm but he can easily be subbed out for x7 crackshot Vessery (who loves him some LRS)

though I must admit, the thought of ion pulse missiles OS-1s also fills me with wicked joy