38 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I’m going to try this one:

Nu Squadron Pilot (25) - Alpha-class Star Wing
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1), Long-Range Scanners (0), "Mangler" Cannon (4), Linked Battery (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (25) - Alpha-class Star Wing
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1), Long-Range Scanners (0), "Mangler" Cannon (4), Linked Battery (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (25) - Alpha-class Star Wing
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1), Long-Range Scanners (0), "Mangler" Cannon (4), Linked Battery (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (25) - Alpha-class Star Wing
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1), Long-Range Scanners (0), "Mangler" Cannon (4), Linked Battery (2)

This one is definitely interesting.

1 minute ago, HolySorcerer said:

PSA: Neither Deadeye nor Targeting Synchronizer work with the OS-1 title. You still require your own lock to fire ordnance after SLAMing.

Yeah, it's why I'm so high on cannons. They bypass all the difficulties of missiles.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This one is definitely interesting.

Yup, I’m a big fan of Manglers for cannon spam. It’s just too bad that FFG predicted that I’d buy four GUNBOATs and want to spam quadruple HLC with them, so they made it cost 26 with the HLC...

Sure, the problem is you can't fire high damage cannons while still slamming. Unless you are Karasabi and then you don't get any mods.

2 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Sure, the problem is you can't fire high damage cannons while still slamming. Unless you are Karasabi and then you don't get any mods.

Wired Linked HLC Karsabi seems like he would perform fine.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Yup, I’m a big fan of Manglers for cannon spam. It’s just too bad that FFG predicted that I’d buy four GUNBOATs and want to spam quadruple HLC with them, so they made it cost 26 with the HLC...

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This still leaves you with two points for Tractors or Jammers. It's not quad HLC, but adding a bit of control to the Manglers adds flexibility.

edit: A Linked Mangler Nu is 25 points, and while not quite as punchy as HLC, is a very consistent weapon that will dish out a lot of crits.

While not disagreeing about the power of HLC gunboat build, I think that the main disadvantage of it is the fact that you can't have it for 25 points, which seems to be a magic number for low-PS squads, as it allows you to take 4.

Missile boats can fit into 25 points per ship builds while not having the disadvantages that you described, so it's just a different kind of build. I did test a Nu missile build on Vassal and wasn't disappointed so far, so I woudn't agree that missile builds are wrong

I still think that 2 HLC build is going to be encountered more often, simply because it allows for more options due to the fact that the build can use different aces as a third squad.

7 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Wired Linked HLC Karsabi seems like he would perform fine.

Or A Score To Settle, Linked HLC Karsabi. Two passive mini modifications.

Please, jump into range one.

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Fear will keep them in line... fear of my torpedos.

People seem to be excited to use the Gunboat as a cheap cannon carrier, but didn't we already have this with the Scyk? You can fit 2x HLC Scyks, 2x Mangler Scyks, and a Light Sunny with 2 pts to spare into a list. Maybe the Gunboat's 7 health behind 2 agility vs the Scyk's 4 health behind 3 agility is the appeal, but I can't tell how much of a difference that really is.

EDIT: Heck, people talk about 2x HLC Gunboats + ace being a thing. But you can fit 2x HLC Scyks, 1x Mangler Scyk, AND Fenn Rau into a 100 pt list.

Anyway I'm still excited to fly the thing. I like the idea of two Mangler Nu's paired with a 47 pt Kylencer.

The difference is the amount of modification the Gunboat can get. That's what makes it better.

4 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

The difference is the amount of modification the Gunboat can get. That's what makes it better.

Yep. Scyks don't have the baked in modification. The worse defensive profile and poor flat out speed for repositioning, as well as missing the 1-straight hurt them also.

1 minute ago, defkhan1 said:

People seem to be excited to use the Gunboat as a cheap cannon carrier, but didn't we already have this with the Scyk? You can fit 2x HLC Scyks, 2x Mangler Scyks, and a Light Sunny with 2 pts to spare into a list. Maybe the Gunboat's 7 health behind 2 agility vs the Scyk's 4 health behind 3 agility is the appeal, but I can't tell how much of a difference that really is.

Anyway I'm still excited to fly the thing. I like the idea of two Mangler Nu's paired with a 47 pt Kylencer.

C/2/4/3 is a much better statline than C/3/3/1. Not only is 4 HP able to get 1-shot by a lucky attack and blank greens, it'll take a bit more than an extra shot on average for a Gunboat to die to barely-modified 3-dice attacks (Wired), or around 2 shots more against highly-modified 3 dice attacks (Predator + Ezra).

@Q10fanatic is also right that adding Long Range Scanners and/or Linked Batteries goes a long way when combined with the standard focus token.

Can confirm. MathWing 3.0 jousting math for PS2 + XG-1 + HLC + Linked Batteries puts both the PS2 (28 points) and PS4 (31 points) at `104% to 105% jousting efficiency, relative to Ye Olde Wave 3 Baseline.

Cons:

• I'm assuming they always have an HLC shot, which is somewhat optimistic, as they will occasionally get stuck with a 3 dice primary shot at range 1.
• The game's overall power curve has gone up significantly since wave 3, so having the jousting efficiency about as good a lambda shuttle (about 106% re: wave3 baseline) isn't as amazing as it used to be.
• No K-turn.

Pros:

• SLAM!
• The PS4 still hasn't used its EPT slot in this analysis (hello crackshot)
• Long Range Scanners (not modelled in the above)

They set the new standard for point-and-shoot non-ordnance generics, but that archetype has been dead for a long long time now. So, how good do I really think they are? That's a harder question to answer, but the baseline power curve that I have been using for Community Mod can help shed some light. The power curve for Community Mod isn't exactly the same as stock, but it's pretty close for the top-end stuff. Almost everything gets buffed, with a few ships like Soontir and Fenn staying put where they are. Using the Mod-Wing power curve, the efficiency drops to around 88% to 89%. That's still not too bad, and basically says that in the stock game you'll need to use the SLAM action and Long-Range Scanners (and EPT) to increase your efficiency, which is entirely possible. As with any arc'ed ship however, its weakness is going to be arc dodgers, which should be seeing more play now that bombs have been nerfed.

This is just a really quick initial estimate that literally took only took a couple minutes to update scripts for and recalculate -- about as much time as it took me to write this post. I'll do a deep dive later when I get around to fully rebalancing the ship (as needed) for Mod-Wing, which right now is at the end of my queue. Probable ETA is December or January.

Just now, Biophysical said:

Yep. Scyks don't have the baked in modification. The worse defensive profile and poor flat out speed for repositioning, as well as missing the 1-straight hurt them also.

I'll agree with you on the Linked Batteries and maybe on the survivability (haven't tested how survivable the gunboats are) but I actually really like the Scyk dial for cannons. You still have the 1-banks for going slow and the 5K is amazing for gaining distance for HLC. Also having barrel roll is awesome and they're a lot cheaper. I'll have to see it to believe it with regard to the Gunboat, but I've played a ton of HLC/Mangler Scyks and think they do just fine, but they're still Tier 2.

12 hours ago, Marinealver said:

There was only one ship that did missiles/torpedoes right, and everyone hated it.

Wait. Are we talking about the ship that could fire a torpedo at you at PS9 and then fire a second torpedo at you if you fired at it while in arc that same turn? The ship with 9 hp, 2 agi that was itself nearly guaranteed to survive alpha strikes that would come its way (or at least get simultaneous fire if it didn't)? The ship with white sloops that could take deadeye? The ship with white sloops, deadeye, and ludicrous offensive mods between chips and its mech that gave it obscene odds of 4/4 hits? That's doing torpedoes right?

TIL

Is this too many points in a gunboat?

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Expertise (4)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Draw Their Fire (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The gunboat will probably be target #1 for most opponents but that leaves you with two pretty solid end game options. How many shots for your Rho to pay for its points?

21 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Is this too many points in a gunboat?

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Expertise (4)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Draw Their Fire (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The gunboat will probably be target #1 for most opponents but that leaves you with two pretty solid end game options. How many shots for your Rho to pay for its points?

LRS TL, Expertise focus, and a defensive focus every round?

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I agree, and the HLC is just as good at hit and run as the missile boat is. It is also more flexible and has a much lower burden of execution. Also, the primaries with linked battery and Crack Shot are not garbage at range 1, so opposing ships diving in on you is not as problematic.

I agree but it's balanced out by harpoons being more powerful... Another question is when going for HLC, is it better to get linked battery for 1 small mod or the title + a control canon? I see a lot of potential in SLAM + tractor beam... :-)

Just now, Thormind said:

I agree but it's balanced out by harpoons being more powerful... Another question is when going for HLC, is it better to get linked battery for 1 small mod or the title + a control canon? I see a lot of potential in SLAM + tractor beam... :-)

I think that's a good question. I don't have an answer. It really depends strongly on the meta, and if these things end up being really good, I'd guess you'll see a mix of Linked Batteries and 1-2 point cannons.

14 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I agree but it's balanced out by harpoons being more powerful... Another question is when going for HLC, is it better to get linked battery for 1 small mod or the title + a control canon? I see a lot of potential in SLAM + tractor beam... :-)

Harpoons are NOT more powerful. They're both four dice secondary weapons

Gchip harpoons may be more powerful. Lucky crit harpoons may be more powerful (also may blow up in your face)

Otherwise hlc has more mods since you don't need your TL for OS-1

Sorry if I'm being dense, but could someone please explain why Long Range Scanners seem to be an auto include for these Gunboat builds. I imagine it has something to do with the initial TL or SLAMing to get beyond range 3 but I'm just not getting it. Plz esplain?

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Harpoons are NOT more powerful. They're both four dice secondary weapons

Gchip harpoons may be more powerful. Lucky crit harpoons may be more powerful (also may blow up in your face)

Otherwise hlc has more mods since you don't need your TL for OS-1

They are more powerful though. Disregarding the splash damage, getting that condition to trigger deals an extra facedown damage card. Harpoons have the potential to do up to 5 damage to the same target, HLC caps at 4.