1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But with the ability to ignore an Evade, which is becoming relevant again. Harpoons genuinely struggle to hurt Asajj but Homing Missiles will get through, same for Soontir.

At this moment in time it's all Harpoons and people are losing their **** over it, but since bombs got nerfed we've seen the hyper-defensive green dice & tokens come back and if that continues then I can well imagine we're all using Homing Missile in two month's time.

Fair on game effects.

But I still think Harpoons should have either [1] been 5 points like Homing Missiles with their current text or [2] spent the target lock like Assault Missiles but remained 4 points. Statistically they hit harder than the same-price Concussion Missiles in the initial shot (and you can get lucky and roll hits without spending the TL), while also assigning that condition. One of my favorite threads of nerf/buff ideas I've seen was your list of point value changes, and I think that shows a lot about what one point means.

So I'm thinking about this approach to missileboats...

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Expertise (4)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Expertise (4)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Expert Handling (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Targeting Synchronizer (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Call your target, then get or slam into a r2-3 shot. 4 dice with focus and potential TL if you dont mind disengaging to reaquire. Dont spend the TL, you can reload and shoot instantly. Reload shot gets arcdodged, set up your next shot with a 2 bank-2hard weave SLAM or 2 hard-2hard turnaround.

Expert handling!?! I don't believe you. Why not just go with VI, and get above most other alphas?

Also, with targeting synchronizer on QD, why not switch to chips on the Rho's? Expertise plus chips is probably good enough.

18 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

Expert handling!?! I don't believe you. Why not just go with VI, and get above most other alphas?

Also, with targeting synchronizer on QD, why not switch to chips on the Rho's? Expertise plus chips is probably good enough.

QD has EH to kill enemy LRS.

The rhos still need an actual TL to use SLAM, not just TS fron QD. The TS is still good for reliable damage, though.

5 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

QD has EH to kill enemy LRS.

The rhos still need an actual TL to use SLAM, not just TS fron QD. The TS is still good for reliable damage, though.

So, each turn approaching the alpha, QD burns a lock with EH. Next turn the opponent gets it right back. This pattern continues until in range for combat.

Suppose you are against QD with 3Nu's. You are entering combat with no mods on your own QD, and only a single one of his Nu's is without a lock. You must be very confident that your two Rho's will PS kill one of the Nu's that has a TL, because QD won't be contributing to that offense.

6 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

QD has EH to kill enemy LRS. The rhos still need an actual TL to use SLAM, not just TS fron QD. The TS is still good for reliable damage, though.

13 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

So, each turn approaching the alpha, QD burns a lock with EH. Next turn the opponent gets it right back. This pattern continues until in range for combat. Suppose you are against QD with 3Nu's. You are entering combat with no mods on your own QD, and only a single one of his Nu's is without a lock. You must be very confident that your two Rho's will PS kill one of the Nu's that has a TL, because QD won't be contributing to that offense.

So you guys think @Brunas's squad (not sure if he's the originator; no offense; props to the genesis spark regardless but we'll say he put it on the map) is going to be everywhere now?

53 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

So you guys think @Brunas's squad (not sure if he's the originator; no offense; props to the genesis spark regardless but we'll say he put it on the map) is going to be everywhere now?

It's basically either Trip Poon Nus + Ace (Mostly QD) or Double Poon Rhos + Ace (Likely Kylo). There might be a sprinkling of Double PS11 Poons via QD (w/ Targeting Synchronizer), Vader and a Rho since I still believe that is also one of the more powerful alpha's and it has placed high in a few regionals.

Basically, plan to get pooned. You can either try to fight the poons with your own poons or try some anti TL stuff (Black One, Countermeasures, etc.) to try and counter the poons.

....I think I'm done saying poons now....

Its comical, on the forums and hearing from tournaments gunboats are everywhere but locally i seem to be the only one using them. And my only loses with them are when i was goofing off (reload seismic! reload seismics! reload seismics!) or trying to thread needles in situations i normally wouldnt try.

My FLGS just had a local tourny and i kid you not out of 18 players not a single gunboat (i didnt actually play because i lost track of time...fml).

46 minutes ago, RStan said:

Basically, plan to get pooned...fight the poons with your own poons or counter the poons.

....I think I'm done saying poons now.

Well pooned

Haven’t seen any yet, but perhaps pints and poons haven’t become a thing....yet.

Meet the Nu poon

Same as the old poon

Harpoons are weird.

Theyre insane when massed but the random harpoon is almost more dangerous to you.

Lost count how many times i see a list with 1 harpoon and it goes off in their face. I honestly think if they just removed the facedown card part on the harpooned ship it wouldnt be that big a deal anymore because of potential friendly fire that no longer nukes the crap out of that ship in the process (my hp is a resource...)

Poon-Tang Clan

Nu Squadron Pilot - Harpoon Missiles, Long Range Scanners - 22
Nu Squadron Pilot - Harpoon Missiles, Long Range Scanners - 22
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

So you guys think @Brunas's squad (not sure if he's the originator; no offense; props to the genesis spark regardless but we'll say he put it on the map) is going to be everywhere now?

As far as I know a lot of people pretty much came up with it individually - I remember hearing it from Andrew Bunn first. It's pretty self evidence after realizing the 22 point boats are good, and after 3 you have 34 points leftover which is a great number for Imperials. Honestly, my first reaction to seeing the list posted was double checking because there's no way it would fit in 100 points. It really has that feeling of playing a parattanni style 120 point list.

I expect countermeasures and black one to rise to meet the LRS harpoons which would generally be a bad idea against three missiles (two is still enough to massively cripple things), and to have it work because people drop the total LRS/Harpoon count below three.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

It really has that feeling of playing a parattanni style 120 point list.

That's a scary statement. I'd be curious to see @MajorJuggler's numbers on that in comparison to the old Parattanni numbers he ran when it was destroying all the system opens. I'm going to assume it's not near as bad (cross fingers my assumption is right), but I'd be curious on the overall numbers for the Nu LRS Harpoon boats at 22 pts.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

I expect countermeasures and black one to rise to meet the LRS harpoons which would generally be a bad idea against three missiles (two is still enough to massively cripple things), and to have it work because people drop the total LRS/Harpoon count below three.

I think a reasonable strategy for rebel ships is to dodge one arc, blow one lock with countermeasures/B1, and eat the 3rd. Most centerpiece ships can handle that. You definitely have to make use of the position that you just traded hit points to get, but hey, that's why it's a game.

I could see players jumping to two PS 4+ heavies+and ace to try and take a Gunboat off the board first.

A big part of me influenced by my love of TIE Bombers wants to see the Gamma Vet gain traction as the pinnacle PS:cost ratio for Ordnance. I don't think that will happen, though.

I think the issue with the gunboat is that ffg tried to do the xg-1 gunboat & the os-1 missile boat as one ship, when really they would have benefited more from being two completely seperate ships.

I can see why they've done it; the gunboat (whilst being a good ship) wouldn't have brought anything groundbreaking to the table by itself, and the missile boat (as much as it pains me to say it) probably isn't worth an expansion on its own.

But of course the problem that this creates is that is sticks the gunboat with the slam & reload actions. With the side effect of robbing the gunboat of a more conventional dial. (Really the gunboat dial and action bar should probably look like the t-70 without the talon rolls)

Mini-rant aside, i've not done too badly with missile setups on my gunboats so far.

At The moment it's vynder & two rhos, all with the os-1 title, adv slam, & homing missiles. Vynder has lone wolf, and the rhos have VI.

The matches i'vd got in have mostly been around a 6/10 on the difficulty meter (basically i've not had the opportunity to put them properly through the wringer yet), but the experience so far has been:

-As long as you have the PS advantage it's pretty easy to manage range and approach angles to get a good volley off.

-dice modification (i.e. getting enough of it) can be an issue

-disengaging with the slam is not typically problematic, neither is turning around, and the time you spend off-target is usually time spent reloading for the next attack anyway.

I've found that in my experience at least not flying formation seems to be better, they don't have to be in wildly disparate places but coming in from slightly different angles can be very handy.

I've also found that hou can get away with a degree of fluidity in your target selection; obviously there are ships you want to take down as a priority, but it's always good to be aware of "attacks of opportunity" that the slam action can let you get against other ships (and it's often quite profitable to pursue these, particularly if you can get more than one ship on target).

Instead of disengaging from tlt's, aim for the range 1 bubble to reload (when it's safe to do so), also don't forget about your primary attack - if your move gives you a range 1 on the tlt, don't bother with missiles; just light 'em up.

There's certainly a learning curve to flying them. They don't feel easy, but they are rewarding to learn... and whilst i don't know if they are top tier (probably not), they don't feel doa either.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I think a reasonable strategy for rebel ships is to dodge one arc, blow one lock with countermeasures/B1, and eat the 3rd. Most centerpiece ships can handle that. You definitely have to make use of the position that you just traded hit points to get, but hey, that's why it's a game.

I could see players jumping to two PS 4+ heavies+and ace to try and take a Gunboat off the board first.

A big part of me influenced by my love of TIE Bombers wants to see the Gamma Vet gain traction as the pinnacle PS:cost ratio for Ordnance. I don't think that will happen, though.

Yep, I see that plan working pretty well - unless the deadeye boats also catch on, in which case we'll all look a little silly! It is also sad seeing bombers become basically completely worthless

2 hours ago, RStan said:

That's a scary statement. I'd be curious to see @MajorJuggler's numbers on that in comparison to the old Parattanni numbers he ran when it was destroying all the system opens. I'm going to assume it's not near as bad (cross fingers my assumption is right), but I'd be curious on the overall numbers for the Nu LRS Harpoon boats at 22 pts.

Calculating jousting values for any kind of alpha strike list is tricky, because the damage is all front-loaded, and not averaged over time. I'll get to Gunboats eventually when I rebalance them for Community Mod, but I have already taken the wind out of Harpoon's sails by changing the condition: no splash damage, and the action to remove cannot cause it to explode anyway.

5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Poon-Tang Clan

Nu Squadron Pilot - Harpoon Missiles, Long Range Scanners - 22
Nu Squadron Pilot - Harpoon Missiles, Long Range Scanners - 22
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/x7 - 28

That could be nasty. I need to try it now

16 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

but I have already taken the wind out of Harpoon's sails by changing the condition: no splash damage, and the action to remove cannot cause it to explode anyway.

That actually makes Harpoons better, not worse.

Just flew my first gunboat and it did not even shoot once ;_;

Memo to myself: git gud and learn to play gunboats!

38 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Yep, I see that plan working pretty well - unless the deadeye boats also catch on, in which case we'll all look a little silly! It is also sad seeing bombers become basically completely worthless

Deadeye Gunboats can't be taken as groups if 3+ ace, so that's something. Besides, if you want to put points in a Gunboat, why is it not HLC? I guess Deadeye Titleless Rhos are still cheaper than HLCs, and still pretty fearsome

Anyway, I played against a pretty interesting Kimo build with Harpoons, Deadeye, and Chips (mech and illicit variable). Hits like a truck, and gets PS advantage over Gunboats, if the meta goes that direction. Nobody wants to jump to Range 1 if that guy, either.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Deadeye Gunboats can't be taken as groups if 3+ ace, so that's something. Besides, if you want to put points in a Gunboat, why is it not HLC? I guess Deadeye Titleless Rhos are still cheaper than HLCs, and still pretty fearsome

Anyway, I played against a pretty interesting Kimo build with Harpoons, Deadeye, and Chips (mech and illicit variable). Hits like a truck, and gets PS advantage over Gunboats, if the meta goes that direction. Nobody wants to jump to Range 1 if that guy, either.

Yeah, you're stuck with a pretty bad 4th ship with 3 deadeye Rhos - and yes, basically just because it's cheap, and it's difficult to get a second range 2-3 shot off after the first with your gunboats anyways. Our regional saw some success with deadeye rhos: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3773

I don't think deadeye + LRS is correct, but deadeye + chips ones tend to drop like a sack of bricks when they're shot at...

4 hours ago, Brunas said:

As far as I know a lot of people pretty much came up with it individually - I remember hearing it from Andrew Bunn first. It's pretty self evidence after realizing the 22 point boats are good, and after 3 you have 34 points leftover which is a great number for Imperials. Honestly, my first reaction to seeing the list posted was double checking because there's no way it would fit in 100 points. It really has that feeling of playing a parattanni style 120 point list.

True, but the man who wins the belt in the ring holds the honor to name the style.......just saying.

Congrats.

Lots of players are going to try this list as it has lots of red dice with fun with classic Star Wars ships.

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

That actually makes Harpoons better, not worse.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In a meta with TIE Swarms (which will exist in Community Mod), then the lack of splash is a nerf. I still haven't tweaked the missile itself yet, just the condition.