4 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

I definitely agree that Lightning Reflexes is worth considering. It can be quite handy, especially if your opponent forgets you have it!

However, I don't think its 'better'. These things are situational after all. There will be times when you wish you had crackshot (like that time I wiped Fenn off the board with a single shot at R3---not possible without it!), but there will also be times you wish you had LR...

Ultimately, I think the ship can do quite well without LR. I think more people are starting to realize this is not a jousting ship. It looks like it, but its not. Its an imperial gangster. Hit & Run! With that playstyle, I don't think LR is necessary, really.

The problem is that Lightning Reflexes has one of the coolest artworks in the game, and there's no way it's going to be anything but crap on anything either isn't a Gunboat, so if you want to use those cards ever, you're pushed to use them on the Gunboat. Crack Shot is good against lots of things.

5 minutes ago, blade_mercurial said:

Ultimately, I think the ship can do quite well without LR. I think more people are starting to realize this is not a jousting ship. It looks like it, but its not. Its an imperial gangster. Hit & Run! With that playstyle, I don't think LR is necessary, really.

Not necessary, but definitely a useful safety net for what can potentially be a really unforgiving ship to fly.

45 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Hi, have you played against your friends 4x gunboat list yet?

No, I haven't run into him on vassal. I expect to see him this Thursday (tomorrow) at the LGS, we'll see if he brings that list, or some other jank bomber type list.

On 11/22/2017 at 0:59 PM, Hannes Solo said:

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Crack Shot (1)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

I took two of these last night, with a Juke x7 Vessery; it made mince meat of a Poe/Dash list. I like both titles but i feel the XG-1 is gonna be like the x7 /D situation for defenders.

On 11/15/2017 at 1:44 PM, Biophysical said:

I know that Harpoons are the sexy new toy right now, but I'm amassing a pretty sizable body of evidence that missiles are not the power build for Gunboats. You don't have the action economy to make use of the abilities. You either take Long Range Scanners to get the TL, but then you often can't spend it. You take Chips to modify shots better, but then you have no TL set up after you SLAM, or you take Advanced SLAM to get the action, but you're firing shots that are more lightly modified.

Then you run into the issue of getting the lock against ships that move after you.

What doesn't have this problem? HLC gunboat. You can have it between 26 points (Nu, Assault Title, HLC, LRS) and 32 (Rho, Crack Shot, Linked Batteries, HLC, LRS). It's easier to use, slightly more expensive, doesn't need to be reloaded, and doesn't run into those annoying action requirements that missiles do.

2 Rho Squadron Pilots + an Ace is a thing. It's going to be a big thing, I think. It's not a secret, or won't be for long, because holy crap, it burns **** down.

Have you considered a rotating fire loadout of tracers and harpoons... reload hits multi ordnance right?

24 minutes ago, Ravncat said:

Have you considered a rotating fire loadout of tracers and harpoons... reload hits multi ordnance right?

It does. But XX-23 Thread Tracers need a focus to fire, but still need the target to be locked in order to be able to fire with a weapons disabled token per OS-1.

It's not a bad plan, because you don't have to SLAM all the time... but it does seem a much more convoluted approach than just "aaaand Heavy Laser Cannon!"

I'm not saying the HLC is the only choice that works, but it strikes me as probably the best for a generic gunboat. The times you don't want it are if you either plan on SLAM-ing a lot (especially for Major Vynder, who actually becomes a fairly respectable arc dodger with Veteran Instincts and Advanced SLAM) or you want to stick below a 25 point threshold to field 4 ships.

Note that you don't have to have the Arsenal Loadout on a missile-armed gunboat. Theoretically, you could pack 5 gunboats with Flechette Torpedoes and Long Range Scanners into a list, for example. I'm not advocating that as an amazing squad (it's not) but having 5 target lock/focused torpedoes that do 'full damage', even if they're only 3 dice shots, is a surprisingly nasty alpha strike. It's just a shame so few things take the stress hit these days.

After a bit of experience trying and observing some variations of Gunboats on Vassal, I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents on this. Overall, Bio is correct, Cannon boats are superior than missile boats (likely already established many pages back). It mostly comes down to 2(3) of the upgrade cards within the expansion pack itself.

First is the big one, Linked Batteries. This card almost single handedly makes the Cannon Boats competitive. Pair it with HLC, Mangler, even some control cannons for cheap, and enjoy the rerolling. The commonly used Rho, Crack, HLC boat burns anything down in its path, especially when you have 2 of them.

The second (and to a small degree, third) upgrade card that support this statement is the OS-1 Arsenal Loadout. THE most important part on that card is "against ships you have locked." That part right there makes the burden of execution to deliver consistent high damage much more difficult than the Cannon boat. After the OS-1 fires off it's first harpoon, to fire it again it needs to; reacquire a lock (a chance it wasn't used, but without GChips, there's a higher probability it does), reload, turn around to get arc on it's target again (no K turns), all the while an opposing turret could be shooting at it or an ace chasing it. That's a whole lot while the XG-1 title gives you either Linked Batteries, an extremely good upgrade card to mod your dice or you can take a Flechette Cannon to always shoot for some control and extra plink damage. There's absolutely no burden to just fire off the secondary weapon besides just getting them in your arc, while the OS-1 requires at least 2 actions (target lock and reload) to do the same consistent damage.

Now there might be a solid way to use missiles for the Gunboat and it doesn't even use the OS-1 title (since I think it's a trap). Just a Rho w/ Deadeye, GChips, Harpoons (26 pts), and maybe Extra Munitions if you have the 2 extra pts to allow the Rho in the first engagement to potentially first off 2 Harpoons without the need to Reload. For those 2 extra points, you can just have Nu Pilot w/ XG-1 title, HLC, Linked Batteries, and LRS which is still likely better even at lower PS.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Note that you don't have to have the Arsenal Loadout on a missile-armed gunboat. Theoretically, you could pack 5 gunboats with Flechette Torpedoes and Long Range Scanners into a list, for example. I'm not advocating that as an amazing squad (it's not) but having 5 target lock/focused torpedoes that do 'full damage', even if they're only 3 dice shots, is a surprisingly nasty alpha strike. It's just a shame so few things take the stress hit these days.

The more I think about this, the more I think this is an important thing to note:

• A Scyk or TIE Defender also has a choice of title, but are not in the same situation.
  • It's hard to imagine a scyk choosing to not take either the Light Scyk or Heavy Scyk title. A defender, even more so, because even if planning to equip a heavy laser cannon, you might as well take TIE/d as it costs you nothing.
• XG-1 Assault Configuration is not optional for a gunboat.
  • Even if, like @ficklegreendice, you plan to arm your XG-1s with linked battery heavy laser cannons and only SLAM under extreme protest, you still need the title because without it your upgrade bar lacks any [cannon] slots.
  • That's why a heavy laser cannon gunboat's big gun - whilst undeniably effective - is expensive; XG-1 Assault Configuration+Linked Battery+Heavy Laser Cannon is 10 points - nearly enough to buy a whole other ship...
• OS-1 Arsenal Loadout is optional for a missile boat.
  • It provides missile and torpedo upgrade slots, and the ability to fire with weapons disabled tokens.
  • Thing is, you already have missile and torpedo upgrade slots (enough to equip Long Range Scanners if so inclined).
  • Add in the fact that a 2-point title is actually a pretty big investment on an 18-21 point generic ship (hence why some people leave lightweight frame off their strikers) and , you can only justify the title if it's providing you a meaningful advantage.
  • In isolation, OS-1 is justified on a missile boat only if:
    • You plan to equip 3+ different types of missile or torpedo ordnance
      • This is a bad plan on the K-wing, a bad plan on the TIE Punisher and a bad plan on the TIE Bomber, so why should it be a good idea here?
    • You plan to equip ordnance needing duplicate slots (extra munitions torpedoes or unguided rockets)
    • You plan to Reload-fire a lot
      • Both of the above involve you being in an extended engagement for several turns in a row. In which case, unless there's a missile with a specific non-damage effect you absolutely have to have (ion pulse missiles and scrambler missiles are the only ones springing to mind), buy a bloody cannon - firing several turns in a row without reloading, relocking or whatever is what they're there for, and precisely what their increased cost over missiles or torpedoes buys you.
    • You plan to SLAM-fire a lot
      • In this case - yeah. You'll probably need Advanced SLAM to keep action economy up, which means no guidance chips, which means ordnance is pretty ineffective compared to a properly aimed cannon. On the other hand, the scariest SLAM-fire cannon is the Flechette cannon, which I'll happily admit is a pretty cruddy primary weapon.
      • Even then, remember that a 4-point 'upgrade' to a Rho Squadron Veteran buys Lieutenant Karsabi with Wired, who can SLAM-fire a Heavy Laser Cannon, Ion Cannon, or whatever else takes your fancy.

The SLAM-fire to me is the main reason to take OS-1.

Gunboats by default can take extramuns + missile and ordnance users firing more than 2 shots is kinda unusual unless theyre spammed, so generally he wont use the reload anyway unless he gets lucky enough to survive that long.

But the lack of a kturn means they either have the same issue other non-kturn ships have (kturn capable ships just fly circles around them) or they SLAM to get around. We have 4 missiles that dont need to spend the TL to fire them on a ship that has no fear of "that one shot not counting" due to reload if need be, so its really easy to just fire reload fire reload fire reload fire reload fire w/ Adv Slam. Yeah youre basically firing unmodded shots unless you got a support ship floating around giving them to you but you basically gave the ship a 4die attack that is never going away.

I dont know which would be better. The OS-1 is cheaper due to HLC being 7 flippin points but not by much. Course i cant playtest them due to every dang store running out and i apparently spaced out on my preorder (preordered legacies not xwing)

22 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

so its really easy to just fire reload fire reload fire reload fire reload fire w/ Adv Slam. Yeah youre basically firing unmodded shots unless you got a support ship floating around giving them to you but you basically gave the ship a 4die attack that is never going away.

You're welcome to give it a try when able, but I can tell you with confidence that this is absolutely a false statement. It is NOT easy! If it was, then everyone in this thread would be singing the praises of OS-1 and how awesome it is!

I don't know why you would think this is a viable strategy though...there have been numerous posts above explaining why it isn't 'really easy to just fire reload fire reload etc...'.

49 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

But the lack of a kturn means they either have the same issue other non-kturn ships have (kturn capable ships just fly circles around them) or they SLAM to get around.

Except....if you're considering SLM to be the gunboat's K-turn equivalent....then missile fire on K-turn tends to be pretty shoddy from TIE bomber, too. Yes, it takes a turn or two longer, but would it not be a better plan to SLAM clear of the battlezone, get turned around and reloaded safely away from the enemy and come back in again, rather than trying to get into a k-turn-joust that a gunboat is unlikely to win?

Again; I can see ion pulse missiles working for repeat reloads; a decimator is unlikely to dodge even an unmodified IPM from range 3, allowing a 25 point gunboat to reliably cripple a 50+ point VT-49's ability to arc dodge for several turns on end.

What I don't think is worth the effort is multiple spreads of 'pure damage' missiles.

I do also believe IPM are really the only reason you'd ever run an OS-1, because they're the only SLAM ion and the only way to ionize a large ship in one shot

lack of damage is incredibly worrisome, however

perhaps you could try mixing IPM with Cruise (still a 3 dice secondary if you move at speed 2) since reload will flip all ordnance you're carrying

still pricey as ****, though

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I do also believe IPM are really the only reason you'd ever run an OS-1, because they're the only SLAM ion and the only way to ionize a large ship in one shot

lack of damage is incredibly worrisome, however

perhaps you could try mixing IPM with Cruise (still a 3 dice secondary if you move at speed 2) since reload will flip all ordnance you're carrying

still pricey as ****, though

Well, in this particular case, you can have your cake and eat it too!

Quickdraw w/ VI, FCS, title, IPM & chips = 35

2 Rho boats: w/ crack, XG-1, HLC, linked & LRS = 32 x 2

99

Quickdraw 'stuns' the big ship and the Rho's murder it...

I've already used this list twice, except I had harpoon on Quickdraw instead of IPM. I feel the extra damage just kills stuff so fast, you don't really need to ionize it...

So what you're all trying to say is that this isn't good?

Major Vynder — Alpha-class Star Wing 26
Expertise 4
Advanced Proton Torpedoes 6
Harpoon Missiles 4
Ion Torpedoes 5
Ion Pulse Missiles 3
Advanced SLAM 2
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout 2
Ship Total: 52

35 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

So what you're all trying to say is that this isn't good?

Major Vynder — Alpha-class Star Wing 26
Expertise 4
Advanced Proton Torpedoes 6
Harpoon Missiles 4
Ion Torpedoes 5
Ion Pulse Missiles 3
Advanced SLAM 2
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout 2
Ship Total: 52

Building up a massive ordnance launcher on Vynder isn't a bad idea, it's his survivability that worries me.

2 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Building up a massive ordnance launcher on Vynder isn't a bad idea, it's his survivability that worries me.

Yeah I was just trying to post something ridiculous.

Shaving 10 points off would be closer to reasonable.

On the other hand, what are people's thoughs on something like this?

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Advanced SLAM (2)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Advanced SLAM (2)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Advanced SLAM (2)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Fleet Officer (3)
Operations Specialist (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

3 die primaries that telegraph their target, but the shuttle sets them up on the turn they get their TL, and keeps them able to shoot when the token gets stripped.

On 08/12/2017 at 8:00 PM, Joe Censored said:

So what you're all trying to say is that this isn't good?

Major Vynder — Alpha-class Star Wing 26
Expertise 4
Advanced Proton Torpedoes 6
Harpoon Missiles 4
Ion Torpedoes 5
Ion Pulse Missiles 3
Advanced SLAM 2
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout 2
Ship Total: 52

That many different loads, probably not, but an expertise/OS-1/Advanced SLAM boat has at least a fighting chance of deploying APTs effectively. Shame about the cost and Vynder's pilot skill (sans veteran instincts, anyway).

On 08/12/2017 at 4:41 PM, ficklegreendice said:

I do also believe IPM are really the only reason you'd ever run an OS-1, because they're the only SLAM ion and the only way to ionize a large ship in one shot

lack of damage is incredibly worrisome, however

perhaps you could try mixing IPM with Cruise (still a 3 dice secondary if you move at speed 2) since reload will flip all ordnance you're carrying

still pricey as ****, though

That was pretty much the thought; you can swap one XG-1 rho for an OS-1 cruise/ion rho; you lose a bit of damage but gain the option of the ion pulse if you really need it (and since HLC rhos can't slam-fire, a fast big ship might be able to arc dodge them without a little control support).

On 12/8/2017 at 3:34 PM, Celestial Lizards said:

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Deadeye (1)
Ion Pulse Missiles (3)
Advanced SLAM (2)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (2)

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Threat Tracker (3)
Autothrusters (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Let's see how this works.

Why put Deadeye on the Rho Squadron Veteran? You still need a Target Lock for the OS-1 title to work, and you don't need to discard the Target Lock to launch the missiles, so is it just for when you're not SLAMming?

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Why put Deadeye on the Rho Squadron Veteran? You still need a Target Lock for the OS-1 title to work, and you don't need to discard the Target Lock to launch the missiles, so is it just for when you're not SLAMming?

Pretty much, yeah.

So, uh, somebody just went 6-0 at the Austin regional with Quickdraw and 3 Harpoon Nu's.

7 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

So, uh, somebody just went 6-0 at the Austin regional with Quickdraw and 3 Harpoon Nu's.

People have won or placed highly in regionals with nonbiggs (t65) xwings

There's a reason the concept of "the exception that proves the rule" exists, and why the scientific method is based on observable, repeated results

Basically, an exceptionally skilled player can make the most of just about anything. Overall, the configuration can still not perform efficiently relative to other options

7 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

So, uh, somebody just went 6-0 at the Austin regional with Quickdraw and 3 Harpoon Nu's.

Was the title on them?

Edit, unless it is a really light Quickdraw, probably not, so they're basically used as more durable TIE Bombers.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

People have won or placed highly in regionals with nonbiggs (t65) xwings

There's a reason the concept of "the exception that proves the rule" exists, and why the scientific method is based on observable, repeated results

Hah, I wasn't making a conclusion, just an observation. Maybe we've been underestimating the effectiveness of cheap missile Gunboats.

Just now, Biophysical said:

Was the title on them?

Edit, unless it is a really light Quickdraw, probably not, so they're basically used as more durable TIE Bombers.

Just Harpoon and LRS. I guess the Reload and SLAM action are worth the 2 pt over the Scimitar. And Quickdraw had a standard loadout of VI, FCS, Lightweight Frame. Excited to see how it does in the cut today. It was Nam-my from Kessel Run flying it.