On 11/14/2017 at 10:44 PM, Biophysical said:

I know that Harpoons are the sexy new toy right now, but I'm amassing a pretty sizable body of evidence that missiles are not the power build for Gunboats. You don't have the action economy to make use of the abilities. You either take Long Range Scanners to get the TL, but then you often can't spend it. You take Chips to modify shots better, but then you have no TL set up after you SLAM, or you take Advanced SLAM to get the action, but you're firing shots that are more lightly modified.

Then you run into the issue of getting the lock against ships that move after you.

What doesn't have this problem? HLC gunboat. You can have it between 26 points (Nu, Assault Title, HLC, LRS) and 32 (Rho, Crack Shot, Linked Batteries, HLC, LRS). It's easier to use, slightly more expensive, doesn't need to be reloaded, and doesn't run into those annoying action requirements that missiles do.

2 Rho Squadron Pilots + an Ace is a thing. It's going to be a big thing, I think. It's not a secret, or won't be for long, because holy crap, it burns **** down.

So 2 HLC CrackRhos with LRS and LBs come to 32 points each. Leaving 36 for the ace. So, which ace? Does Vessery with only Tie/d and Tractor Beam have legs? Vess loves the LRS targetlocks and the Rhos love the -1 agi from TB. Putting someone on a rock is a bonus. Maybe give Vess Adaptability cause it's free. Any reasons not to use Vess? The 2 that come to my mind are not having room for VI on Vess and not having any points for initiative, which might be important if everyone starts running Rhos. I don't know, what do you think?

Btw, this thread is awesome and has convinced me to buy 2 GUNBOATS. HAIL GUNBOAT!

30 minutes ago, xanderf said:

If you SLAM, you don't shoot (with the exception of the flechette cannon or weaker - and doing 1 or 0 damage a turn isn't going to win you many games). Only getting to shoot every other turn, as you are trying to turn around, is not ideal.

Once an enemy gets behind a gunboat, it's in very much the same situation as the Lambda, in that it doesn't have any way to get a shot on them without making some risky decisions.

Seriously - try flying a formation of them. It's a ship quite resistant to theorycrafting - once you are flying it, it's weird.

So much this.
I am even testing a version of 3x HLC Rhos with Lightning Reflexes instead of Crackshot because of this.
This initial joust is great, but after that, the Gunboat is the worst knife fighter in the game after the lambda. I have got better results with 2 gunboats and a TIE/x7, since the Defender can stay in the fight to cover the gunboats while they prepare another run.

Don't knife fight. Joust, then make a wide turn around the board. Seriously, you don't need to throw dice every turn.

8 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Unlike the Lambda, the gunboat can actually bug out fast and turn around in a reasonable timeframe. The Lambda literally cannot turn fast enough to keep enemy ships from staying behind it. The Gunboat can shake pursuers and get them back in it's sights. It takes more than one turn, but you don't need to keep shooting every turn. It's perfectly acceptable to take a turn to come around for another pass and set up a shot.

Your posting is really screaming the 'theorycrafting' everyone had on seeing the ship.

Seriously - try flying it, though. It's available in the VASSAL league at the moment, so a number of competitive players are flying it that you can run a game against - or fly it yourself against someone experienced against it.

It maneuvers BADLY. There is really a level to anticipation of maneuver that you are underselling - while it's "easy" to get behind a Lambda or X-Wing or etc (basically any kind of 'not great maneuvering ships') - you cannot guarantee a chase position on them. The X-Wing may k-turn and get a shot on you. The Lambda may do a 'stop' maneuver and now you lose an action hitting it AND have no shot on it. With the Assault Gunboat...nothing. Anyone can 'chase' it, plotting a course for its current (start of turn) position, with absolute guarantee that their position cannot be blocked or shot at by the ship in question.

That's not the complete picture, but it points to a part of it, and highlights some of the ways that the gunboat is just...odd. It's tempting to compare it to the K-Wing, which had a similarly-awful maneuver that was 'theoretically offset' by the SLAM action...but it really wasn't, as what REALLY offset the disadvantage to the K-Wing was its ability to: A) Drop bombs and B) Have a 360 degree fire arc. The Assault Gunboat has neither choice, and so ends up - honestly, try it, you'll see - a lot more like the feel of the Lambda-class than you'd expect.

6 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Don't knife fight. Joust, then make a wide turn around the board. Seriously, you don't need to throw dice every turn.

Also: you are very seriously overselling the distance you can cover in a speed 3 maneuver + speed 3 SLAM. And gods help you if you are limited to speed-1 or speed-2 maneuvers - you can't even get out of range an enemy that way. I mean, heck, even with 3 + 3 you can't get out of the range of an enemy that had a shot on your start position, aimed for that, and can then boost themselves.

After playing with the Gunboat on Vassal, I have to agree that the lack of a K-turn really hurts the ship. I get that the ship was built with hit and run tactics in mind, but with the prevalence of turrets in the game currently you really cannot afford to miss turns firing unless you can dodge large volumes of turret fire (ie via Autothrusters or Reinforce).

I was flying 3x Crack/Mangler/Harpoon/LB Rhos against Thweek and 2x TLT/Harpoon Scurrgs. My initial joust went great as I took Thweek off the board without losing a single ship. But I had issues re-engaging post joust. Turning around with SLAM wasnt a problem per se, it was how long it took me to re-engage that was the issue. Each round I wasn't shooting, the TLTs were getting free attacks on me, and those TLTs cut through my 2 agility like butter. I was able to get completely out of range a few times, but thats not always a guarantee with SLAM. People forget how big of a footprint TLT has. By the time I could re-engage I was behind on the damage race because of how much turret fire I had taken and the Scurrgs were able to pick me off one by one.

I think when the Silencer comes out the first list I'm going to fly is Kylo and two Gunboats. A 47 pt Kylo with PTL, AS, PA, Autos, Title. One gunboat has HLC, the other has Mangler (for those Kylo crits). Both have Linked Battery and LRS. Kylo covers the turret weakness of the Gunboats pretty well and a presents a threat that cannot be left to the endgame. Only downside is the list doesn't have a bid.

The thing I think with Kylo and 2 Gunboats is that Kylo and 2 x7 Deltas is almost certainly Just Better.

10 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

So 2 HLC CrackRhos with LRS and LBs come to 32 points each. Leaving 36 for the ace. So, which ace? Does Vessery with only Tie/d and Tractor Beam have legs? Vess loves the LRS targetlocks and the Rhos love the -1 agi from TB. Putting someone on a rock is a bonus. Maybe give Vess Adaptability cause it's free. Any reasons not to use Vess? The 2 that come to my mind are not having room for VI on Vess and not having any points for initiative, which might be important if everyone starts running Rhos. I don't know, what do you think?

Btw, this thread is awesome and has convinced me to buy 2 GUNBOATS. HAIL GUNBOAT!

Why only two GG*?

This looks like defeatism. You shall report to the nearest ISB office.

*Glorious Gunboat

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The thing I think with Kylo and 2 Gunboats is that Kylo and 2 x7 Deltas is almost certainly Just Better.

The deltas can stay in the fight for longer but the gunboat alpha is way stronger. With LRS, Linked and focus it's not unusual to get 4 hits with the HLC, while the deltas will top at 3.
Of course the deltas will be able to fire more often, but in these times of high mitigation it's possible that being able to remove a ship early on gives the win.

Regardless of that, a TIE/x7 Delta costs exactly the same than a Linked HLC XG-1 Nu with LRS, that is an interesting choice. I need to try a Lightning Reflexes Rho with the same configuration because, even if it's 3 points more expensive than the Delta, perhaps it can do that double alpha strike that can help removing one rival ship from the table in the second round of combat, and it lets it fire before all PS 1-3 ships.

4 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

After playing with the Gunboat on Vassal, I have to agree that the lack of a K-turn really hurts the ship. I get that the ship was built with hit and run tactics in mind, but with the prevalence of turrets in the game currently you really cannot afford to miss turns firing unless you can dodge large volumes of turret fire (ie via Autothrusters or Reinforce).

I was flying 3x Crack/Mangler/Harpoon/LB Rhos against Thweek and 2x TLT/Harpoon Scurrgs. My initial joust went great as I took Thweek off the board without losing a single ship. But I had issues re-engaging post joust. Turning around with SLAM wasnt a problem per se, it was how long it took me to re-engage that was the issue. Each round I wasn't shooting, the TLTs were getting free attacks on me, and those TLTs cut through my 2 agility like butter. I was able to get completely out of range a few times, but thats not always a guarantee with SLAM. People forget how big of a footprint TLT has. By the time I could re-engage I was behind on the damage race because of how much turret fire I had taken and the Scurrgs were able to pick me off one by one.

I think when the Silencer comes out the first list I'm going to fly is Kylo and two Gunboats. A 47 pt Kylo with PTL, AS, PA, Autos, Title. One gunboat has HLC, the other has Mangler (for those Kylo crits). Both have Linked Battery and LRS. Kylo covers the turret weakness of the Gunboats pretty well and a presents a threat that cannot be left to the endgame. Only downside is the list doesn't have a bid.

Did you keep the Gunboats together or fly them a little dispersed? I've found that spreading the squad out gives overall much better time on target, because the ship(s) more on the flank can turn to chase instead of disengaging and turning around. Also, do you think things may have been different if you killed a Scurrg instead of Thweek on the opening joust? It would have been a PS kill, and there wpuld have been half the number of turrets shooting at you as you reset.

Anyway, like you, I think 2 boats + ace is going to be much nicer overall than 3 boats just to cover weaknesses better. I have no idea which ace is the best choice, though. It's probably meta dependent.

14 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Does Vessery with only Tie/d and Tractor Beam have legs? Vess loves the LRS targetlocks and the Rhos love the -1 agi from TB.

TB Vessery is good, and in absence of points for other options you can add "A Score To Settle" to give him double mods on a particular opponent while either using your action to barrel roll or save a focus for defence.

He does, however, have a major target painted on him right from the get go. I've played with Vessery a lot, and unsurprisingly he becomes public enemy number one very quickly, and without x7 he can't tank that much damage.

7 hours ago, xanderf said:

It maneuvers BADLY. There is really a level to anticipation of maneuver that you are underselling - while it's "easy" to get behind a Lambda or X-Wing or etc (basically any kind of 'not great maneuvering ships') - you cannot guarantee a chase position on them. The X-Wing may k-turn and get a shot on you. The Lambda may do a 'stop' maneuver and now you lose an action hitting it AND have no shot on it. With the Assault Gunboat...nothing. Anyone can 'chase' it, plotting a course for its current (start of turn) position, with absolute guarantee that their position cannot be blocked or shot at by the ship in question.

That's not the complete picture, but it points to a part of it, and highlights some of the ways that the gunboat is just...odd. It's tempting to compare it to the K-Wing, which had a similarly-awful maneuver that was 'theoretically offset' by the SLAM action...but it really wasn't, as what REALLY offset the disadvantage to the K-Wing was its ability to: A) Drop bombs and B) Have a 360 degree fire arc. The Assault Gunboat has neither choice, and so ends up - honestly, try it, you'll see - a lot more like the feel of the Lambda-class than you'd expect.

....agree with most of this. The inclusion of SLAM is... clunky, at best. Technically SLAM makes the Gunboat (and the K-Wing) the fastest small based ships in the game, but they have the turning circle of an oil tanker. That doesn't matter so much for the K-Wing, as you can force people into a chase with them, dropping bombs behind you and firing your turret as you go. The Gunboat, on the other hand, needs to get you back into arc, and even with SLAM that is going to be very difficult to achieve. Lambda-like is correct.

I've seen a couple comparisons to Lambda in maneuverability. I think it's more like the Upsilon with Engine Upgrade. That may seem like splitting hairs, but hard turns and an additional move afterward do make quite a difference.

Just now, Biophysical said:

Did you keep the Gunboats together or fly them a little dispersed? I've found that spreading the squad out gives overall much better time on target, because the ship(s) more on the flank can turn to chase instead of disengaging and turning around. Also, do you think things may have been different if you killed a Scurrg instead of Thweek on the opening joust? It would have been a PS kill, and there wpuld have been half the number of turrets shooting at you as you reset.

Anyway, like you, I think 2 boats + ace is going to be much nicer overall than 3 boats just to cover weaknesses better. I have no idea which ace is the best choice, though. It's probably meta dependent.

I kept them together for the joust but split them up afterward. One Scurrg went for the heavily damaged guy and the other went for the remaining two. The hurt guy had Damaged Engine so he had a lot of trouble turning around in time to re-engage. The other two did some damage to the second Scurrg but I lost one of them to TLT after the second go around. I definitely think I would've had a better chance if I went for a Scurrg in the initial joust. I underestimated how badly TLTs hurt this ship and I was more concerned about an arc-dodging endgame Thweek. If I had to do it again I'd definitely go for a Scurrg.

But yeah in the future I'm definitely going to try out 2 boats + ace. Quickdraw, Vader, Soontir, Kylo...still haven't settled on the best one for the job. I'm leaning toward a Cruise Missile Quickdraw until Kylo comes out.

38 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I've seen a couple comparisons to Lambda in maneuverability. I think it's more like the Upsilon with Engine Upgrade. That may seem like splitting hairs, but hard turns and an additional move afterward do make quite a difference.

it's more than "quite", the difference is night and day

just having a white turn at all is a whole world of improvement

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The thing I think with Kylo and 2 Gunboats is that Kylo and 2 x7 Deltas is almost certainly Just Better.

not necessarily

Kylo seems like his arc-dodging shenanigans would dominate the late game and gunboats will get you there faster.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The thing I think with Kylo and 2 Gunboats is that Kylo and 2 x7 Deltas is almost certainly Just Better.

Is it though? Double Delta means you have to settle for a 44 pt Kylo. Which means you lose out on the title and tech. I'm not sure that's worth it.

10 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Is it though? Double Delta means you have to settle for a 44 pt Kylo. Which means you lose out on the title and tech. I'm not sure that's worth it.

I think double-delta vs Kylo also makes Kylo such an easy first target. You put all your ships into Kylo because the Deltas just don't punch that hard and you'll need to grind him down while you can. If you have Gunboats instead the enemy squad can chase Kylo, but they are going pay for it. They'll probably trigger ISYTDS, and the Mangler boat will make it easy to activate. If the Gunboats are in pursuit mode, this also mitigates their two weaknesses of Time on Target and low relative defense.

All of that means the Gunboats almost have to be the first target for the opposing squad, which leads Kylo very nicely into the end game. If a Gunboat survives the initial engagement, it's also pretty well equipped to gtfo and make the other squad chase to claim the points.

@Biophysical - daft question maybe, but will Lightning Reflexes work after a SLAM maneuver? I've checked the cards and FAQ and can't see any reason why not. I know Crackshot is the obvious choice on HLC Rhos, but I wonder having a one-off 180 option might give the Gunboat that little bit of flexibility...

9 hours ago, xanderf said:

Also: yhave at very seriously the distan ce you canwillisnwitspeed 3 maneuver + spe ed 3 SLAM. And ghelp you if you are limititdot speed-2 maneuvers -the you can't even get out of range an enemy that way. I heck, even with 3 + 3 you caroundan't get out of the range of an enemy that had a shot on your start position, aimed for that, and can then boost themselves.

I have played it a bit. I do not find this poor maneuverability you are talking about. It moves in wide arcs, but it just out paces everything.

You do have to bug out before the enemy is actually beyind you. Dont wait till they have k-turned behind you to slam away, do it the turn after you initially shot them. The turn they would be k-turning. This will put a huge amount of distance between you, and the next turn they'll be limited to green moves to clear the stress from the k-turn. By which point you will have turned around and reloaded.

I feel people are just misusing the slam bugout. you arent doing it earlu enough. And you're still in a mindset from other ships in the game. You feel the need to always have shots on target every turn otherwise you lose. The gunboat doesnt do this. It jousts, runs, resets, then jousts again. It gets a shot maybe every other turn unless it ions a target and gets behind it to walk it off the board.

And you do this with multiple gunboats so your opponent isnt dealing with them all at once. One gunboat will be slamming away to reload. Anothetr will be firing missiles, and another will be coming in for a pass next turn. He's desling with multiple stages at once. He doesnt have a clean choice.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

@Biophysical - daft question maybe, but will Lightning Reflexes work after a SLAM maneuver? I've checked the cards and FAQ and can't see any reason why not. I know Crackshot is the obvious choice on HLC Rhos, but I wonder having a one-off 180 option might give the Gunboat that little bit of flexibility...

I don't see why not. I've tried Crack Shot so far, but Lightning Reflexes is a close second.

9 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

After playing with the Gunboat on Vassal, I have to agree that the lack of a K-turn really hurts the ship. I get that the ship was built with hit and run tactics in mind, but with the prevalence of turrets in the game currently you really cannot afford to miss turns firing unless you can dodge large volumes of turret fire (ie via Autothrusters or Reinforce).

I was flying 3x Crack/Mangler/Harpoon/LB Rhos against Thweek and 2x TLT/Harpoon Scurrgs. My initial joust went great as I took Thweek off the board without losing a single ship. But I had issues re-engaging post joust. Turning around with SLAM wasnt a problem per se, it was how long it took me to re-engage that was the issue. Each round I wasn't shooting, the TLTs were getting free attacks on me, and those TLTs cut through my 2 agility like butter. I was able to get completely out of range a few times, but thats not always a guarantee with SLAM. People forget how big of a footprint TLT has. By the time I could re-engage I was behind on the damage race because of how much turret fire I had taken and the Scurrgs were able to pick me off one by one.

I think when the Silencer comes out the first list I'm going to fly is Kylo and two Gunboats. A 47 pt Kylo with PTL, AS, PA, Autos, Title. One gunboat has HLC, the other has Mangler (for those Kylo crits). Both have Linked Battery and LRS. Kylo covers the turret weakness of the Gunboats pretty well and a presents a threat that cannot be left to the endgame. Only downside is the list doesn't have a bid.

4 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Did you keep the Gunboats together or fly them a little dispersed? I've found that spreading the squad out gives overall much better time on target, because the ship(s) more on the flank can turn to chase instead of disengaging and turning around. Also, do you think things may have been different if you killed a Scurrg instead of Thweek on the opening joust? It would have been a PS kill, and there wpuld have been half the number of turrets shooting at you as you reset.

Anyway, like you, I think 2 boats + ace is going to be much nicer overall than 3 boats just to cover weaknesses better. I have no idea which ace is the best choice, though. It's probably meta dependent.

I do agree that not shooting is a major problem. It just lowers efficiency too much for the ship to pull its own weight. But, if you can get the right approach then maybe you can minimize the shots lost, so that the net efficiency is still high enough to be useful -- it certainly starts with a high enough efficiency.

One of our locals is always playing Imperial with Missiles and Torps. He did pretty well at Worlds last year with some sort of Tomax / Quickdraw / something else. This is his Gunboat build:

• PS2 Gunboat + OS-1 + XX-23 thread Tracers + Guidance Chips + Harpoon Missiles (25)
• PS2 Gunboat + OS-1 + XX-23 thread Tracers + Guidance Chips + Harpoon Missiles (25)
• PS2 Gunboat + OS-1 + XX-23 thread Tracers + Guidance Chips + Proton Torpedoes (25)
• PS2 Gunboat + OS-1 + XX-23 thread Tracers + Guidance Chips + Proton Torpedoes (25)

It might have legs. I play against him regularly, and can say from personal experience that if he set that up across the table from me I would have to be very very careful.

3 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

I do agree that not shooting is a major problem. It just lowers efficiency too much for the ship to pull its own weight. But, if you can get the right approach then maybe you can minimize the shots lost, so that the net efficiency is still high enough to be useful -- it certainly starts with a high enough efficiency.

That's a lots of ifs and maybes though @MajorJuggler. Most ships can reposition quickly - if at the expense of stress and their action - with a K-Turn, S-Loop or T-Roll (or combination thereof). The ships that can't usually have another advantage - full stop, auxillary arcs, turrets and or bombs to make up the deficit. Whether the numbers look good or not, wouldn't these movement limitations - like the Imperial Shuttle - translate to an immediate disadvantage on the table? Certainly there are ships out there with the capability to make sure you never get them in arc again after the initial engagement.

That said, the list you've posted looks interesting. Alphastriking (with missiles or cannons) is the ship's strength. I see a focus-then-scatter approach possibly working well - fly in formation, try and get multiple shots on a priority target then scatter to the four winds to reposition.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

That's a lots of ifs and maybes though @MajorJuggler. Most ships can reposition quickly - if at the expense of stress and their action - with a K-Turn, S-Loop or T-Roll (or combination thereof). The ships that can't usually have another advantage - full stop, auxillary arcs, turrets and or bombs to make up the deficit. Whether the numbers look good or not, wouldn't these movement limitations - like the Imperial Shuttle - translate to an immediate disadvantage on the table? Certainly there are ships out there with the capability to make sure you never get them in arc again after the initial engagement.

That said, the list you've posted looks interesting. Alphastriking (with missiles or cannons) is the ship's strength. I see a focus-then-scatter approach possibly working well - fly in formation, try and get multiple shots on a priority target then scatter to the four winds to reposition.

Yeah, lots of ifs and maybes - the only way I can really weigh in with confidence is if I were to do some analytical playtesting, and record the firing duty cycles over many games. That should provide an idea of the ship's net efficiency. But, by that point it will probably be on the table and we'll know the answer anyway.

1 hour ago, defkhan1 said:

Is it though? Double Delta means you have to settle for a 44 pt Kylo. Which means you lose out on the title and tech. I'm not sure that's worth it.

44 points just loses the title, not the tech as well. He can still get Primed Thrusters and that's more than enough.

OK, so if we ignore the movement and line of sight limitations for the moment and focus on the ships' big strength - the ability to dish out a massive first turn alpha strike, either via cannons or ordnance - where do the Gunboats match up in the biggest Alpha lists in the game?

I'm guessing PS10-11 Imperial Aces, triple Deadeye Scurrg and quad Deadeye Vaksai are probably going to be up there in terms of raw first turn damage output. How do the Gunboats match up?

16 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

Yeah, lots of ifs and maybes - the only way I can really weigh in with confidence is if I were to do some analytical playtesting, and record the firing duty cycles over many games. That should provide an idea of the ship's net efficiency. But, by that point it will probably be on the table and we'll know the answer anyway.

This might already be doable using the VASSAL league data.

How I'd dig into it, if I was doing the analysis:

1. Pull the names of everyone who has run gunboats in a VASSAL league match and won it (IE., some indication that they are 'figuring out how to make them work' successfully)
2. Use that list of names, and pull all their VASSAL matches over the past 2 months
3. Excluding the matches they flew gunboats, using something like the Lady Luck analysis, note down these player's typical 'number of attack sets rolled' vs their opponents typical 'number of attack sets rolled'. Note this as the typical ration for that person
4. Then do the same comparison as #3, for their gunboat matches. Thus, on an individual-by-individual bases, you can get a comparison if their ratio of attacks made vs their opponent stays the same, increases (seems unlikely), or decreases when running a gunboat vs 'whatever else they were running'. Notably, you may be able to ever put a ballpark figure to the % decreased (IMHO, the expected result), which lets you calibrate the impact to the jousting efficiency