Maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing that the game isn't made for the long haul?

Think of a campaign as a movie: the characters progress, it has a beginning, a middle and an end.

When it's over... You could start thinking about completely new characters going on a completely different journey. I really don't think this is a bad thing: it challengers your imagination and brings some fresh air after playing for months with the same character.

I've never been that interested in extended character progression, anyway. I prefer a moderate amount progression and then on to a new story, a new character, perhaps a whole new game for a while and then coming back to this one. But that's just me, of course:)

We have some house rules for the success rate, damage, critical hits etc.

But that doesn't mean that the game is broken. The game is very playable right out of the box. We haven't played any RPG where we didn't make house rules. The success rate is just fine... it's not broken. But we just prefer a lower success rate. I do however agree with what they did in terms of making new characters more powerful... we just don't agree on the degree of the change.

The game is in no way broken, but in my 20+ years of role playing house rules have been a natural part of every single rpg.

The only thing that might give people the impression the game won't last long term is how fast FFG will churn out the supplements. Since it's not just a book each release (book/cards/punchouts/etc) it takes more time to get it from the design desk to the stores. And, FFG's not known for their speedy release schedule outside of the LCGs. I am very much appreciating how fast they've released a core ruleset, additional dice, an adventurer's upgrade, and soon to see their first campaign (which from the looks of things expands the monster base we have to work with) as well as the GM's kit (which I'd love to know more about).

They may not release information fast enough on advanced careers/actions/ranks/magic to suit everyone but being a longtime fan of the company the pace for WH3 releases is faster than others I've seen from them.

Sideways advancement, no long haul on the horizon, set damage values, and yes, there seems to be a 'lot' of houseruling going on - much more than I would want to. Guys you just saved me a lot of money. I've decided not to get the game until FFG sort these quirks out. Maybe a 4th editon.

Still, happy gaming for those who are enjoying, I'm going back to 2ed.

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

I tend to agree that characters don't necessarily become more interesting or textured with extended play, although certain stories can only be played out over many sessions (e.g. LotR-like Heroic Journeys).

Herr Arnulfe said:

Yes, and there's a few who think why should characters advance at all? That the character only grows through its direct experience of life in the fantasy setting.

Not sure if I like this though, there has to be some kind of advancement, nobody never learns in some small way despite themselves. And 3ed obviously delivers to that extent.

Rat Catcher said:

Guys, I have noticed that starting characters in Warhammer 3 are yet potential heroes. So, Herr Arnulfe is right : why should there be advance at all ? because everyone enjoy character progression in RPG. Progression means success, fame, powers...But considering the high power of character :

• you might give really less XP, such as 1 advancement per adventure, to limit that progression. Warhammer's goal is adventure, not leveling (That I enjoy too in other d20 games i.e.) . Never give bonus advancement. Instead you might give fortune points, contacts, fame, treasures, or even 1 more wealth (=1advance).
• Since designers suggest a High power gaming with more starting creation point, I suggest you a low-power game to give you a balanced opportunity to give 1 advancement per game session. That's what I do : only 5 creation points (7 for humans), and no points allowed in characteristics (you start with racial + carreer characteristics).

By the way, I agree with Gallow as usual.

GravitysAngel said:

It is a theme that I find very prevalent across online communities.

Magnus the Pious said:

... tell me about it..I just spent $72 on extra dice..and we still dont' have enough black dice to go around!

This game desperately needs a PLAYERS COMPANION. It needs 30+ advanced careers (2nd, 3rd and 4th rank!). It needs the basic rules. It needs the cards for the career (if they're sticking with that sort of thing) and a few new cards..and a set of dice.

jh

Glad to see I'm not the only one with these issues. Usually if anyone says anything somewhat negative they get hammered in the forums. This game is a lot of fun and I am a big supporter of warhammer. Yet IMHO I think it does get old way too fast. Can you imagine doing the same amount of damage ALL the time for say a year long campaign? Maxing characters out in 2-3 months play with no options available (don't know about you guys but my players are heavy rpers that put alot of thought into their characters..this is not a good thing for them)? Seeing the same cards played over and over ond over.......for an extended campaign? Cleaning all that stuff up and getting it back in the box every time you play? Constantly looking at forums to see houserule suggestions for this and that and this because while the mechanics do work...they are ALOT of issues that pop up? Everything about this game screams short term play. I want to play warhammer and I want to play it for a long time, building stories and developing characters. I feel shortchanged here. It's an expensive set up thats too limited and flawed.

This is a pretty complete list of what we _had_from the apathy blogs page...

Abbot Tome of Salvation 183 Advanced
Admiral Shades of Empire 77 Advanced
Agent of the Shroud Night's Dark Masters 96 Advanced
Ambassador Realm of the Ice Queen 98 Advanced Special
Animal Trainer Career Compendium 12 Advanced
Anointed Priest Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 61 Advanced
Artillerist WFRP Companion 105 Advanced
Artisan Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 62 Advanced
Aspiring Champion Tome of Corruption 164 Advanced Special
Assassin Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 62 Advanced
Astrologer Sigmars Heirs 122 Advanced
Ataman Realm of the Ice Queen 99 Advanced Kislev
Badlands Ranger Renegade Crowns 54 Advanced
Battle Pilgrim Knights of the Grail 95 Advanced
Black Guard Night's Dark Masters 96 Advanced
Border Courtier Renegade Crowns 55 Advanced
Cantor Tome of Salvation 194 Advanced
Captain Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 63 Advanced
Cat Burglar Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 63 Advanced
Cataclyst Tome of Corruption 167 Advanced Special
Catechist Tome of Salvation 195 Advanced
Censer Bearer Children of the Horned Rat 98 Advanced Skaven
Champion Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 64 Advanced
Champion of Chaos Tome of Corruption 164 Advanced Special
Chaos Engineer Tome of Corruption 160 Advanced Chaos Dwarf
Chaos Knight Tome of Corruption 163 Advanced Special
Chaos Warrior Tome of Corruption 163 Advanced Special
Charlatan Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 64 Advanced
Clan Chieftain Children of the Horned Rat 98 Advanced Skaven
Clawleader Children of the Horned Rat 98 Advanced Skaven
Cloaked Brother Tome of Corruption 126 Advanced
Courtier Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 65 Advanced
Crime Lord Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 65 Advanced
Crusader Tome of Salvation 201 Advanced
Cult Attendant Tome of Salvation 194 Advanced
Cult Magus of Khorne Tome of Corruption 68 Advanced Special
Cult Magus of Nurgle Tome of Corruption 71 Advanced Special
Cult Magus of Slaanesh Tome of Corruption 74 Advanced Special
Cult Magus of Tzeentch Tome of Corruption 77 Advanced Special
Daemon Prince Tome of Corruption 171 Advanced Special
Daemon Slayer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 66 Advanced
Demagogue Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 66 Advanced
Doomweaver Tome of Corruption 166 Advanced Special
Duellist Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 67 Advanced
Enforcer Renegade Crowns 54 Advanced
Engineer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 67 Advanced
Exalted Champion Tome of Corruption 165 Advanced Special
Exalted Demon Tome of Corruption 168 Advanced Special
Exorcist Sigmars Heirs 123 Advanced
Explorer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 68 Advanced
Faceless Knights of the Grail 96 Advanced
Fence Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 68 Advanced
Flagellant Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 69 Advanced
Foreman WFRP Companion 23 Advanced
Forger Sigmars Heirs 123 Advanced
Freeholder Tome of Corruption 146 Advanced Norse
Friar Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 69 Advanced
Ghost Strider Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 70 Advanced
Giant Slayer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 70 Advanced
Grail Knight Knights of the Grail 96 Advanced
Grandmaster Tome of Salvation 209 Advanced
Grey Seer Children of the Horned Rat 99 Advanced Skaven
Guild Master Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 71 Advanced
Gutter Runner Children of the Horned Rat 99 Advanced Skaven
Hag Mother Realm of the Ice Queen 101 Advanced Special
Hag Witch Realm of the Ice Queen 102 Advanced Special
Hedge Master Shades of Empire 59 Advanced
Hedgewise Shades of Empire 60 Advanced
Herald Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 71 Advanced
High Priest Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 72 Advanced
Highwayman Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 72 Advanced
Horse Archer Realm of the Ice Queen 102 Advanced Kislev
Horsemaster Realm of the Ice Queen 103 Advanced Kislev
Ice Maiden Realm of the Ice Queen 104 Advanced Kislev
Ice Witch Realm of the Ice Queen 105 Advanced Kislev
Innkeeper Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 73 Advanced
Interrogator Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 73 Advanced
Journeyman Runesmith Realms of Sorcery 216 Advanced Dwarf
Journeyman Wizard Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 74 Advanced
Judicial Champion Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 74 Advanced
Killer of the Dead Night's Dark Masters 98 Advanced
Knight Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 75 Advanced
Knight of the Blazing Sun Sigmars Heirs 124 Advanced
Knight of the Inner Circle Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 75 Advanced
Knight of the Raven Night's Dark Masters 99 Advanced
Knight of the Realm Knights of the Grail 98 Advanced Bretonnian
Knight of the Verdant Field Terror in Talabheim 20 Advanced
Knight Panther Tome of Corruption 128 Advanced Special
Lay Priest Career Compendium 131 Advanced
Maledictor Tome of Corruption 165 Advanced Special
Master Assassin Children of the Horned Rat 100 Advanced Skaven
Master Moulder Children of the Horned Rat 100 Advanced Skaven
Master Mutator Children of the Horned Rat 100 Advanced Skaven
Master Runesmith Realms of Sorcery 217 Advanced Dwarf
Master Sorcerer Tome of Corruption 159 Advanced Chaos Dwarf
Master Thief Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 76 Advanced
Master Vigilant Night's Dark Masters 99 Advanced
Master Wizard Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 76 Advanced
Mate Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 77 Advanced
Merchant Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 77 Advanced
Minstrel Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 78 Advanced
Monk Tome of Salvation 183 Advanced
Mystic Renegade Crowns 54 Advanced Border Princes
Navigator Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 78 Advanced
Noble Lord Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 79 Advanced
Outlaw Chief Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 79 Advanced
Pamphleteer Shades of Empire 51 Advanced
Physician Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 80 Advanced
Pistolier Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 80 Advanced
Plague Deacon Children of the Horned Rat 101 Advanced Skaven
Plague Priest Children of the Horned Rat 101 Advanced Skaven
Politician Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 81 Advanced
Priest Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 81 Advanced
Questing Knight Knights of the Grail 100 Advanced Bretonnian
Racketeer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 82 Advanced
Rapscallion Career Compendium 173 Advanced
Runelord Realms of Sorcery 217 Advanced Dwarf
Scholar Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 82 Advanced
Scourge of God Tome of Salvation 114 Advanced
Scout Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 83 Advanced
Sea Captain Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 83 Advanced
Seer Lord Children of the Horned Rat 102 Advanced Skaven
Sergeant Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 84 Advanced
Skaven Sorcerer Children of the Horned Rat 102 Advanced Skaven
Slaver Tome of Corruption 149 Advanced Norse
Sorcerer Champion Tome of Corruption 159 Advanced Chaos Dwarf
Sorcerer Lord Tome of Corruption 160 Advanced
Soulflayer Tome of Corruption 167 Advanced Special
Spy Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 84 Advanced
Steward Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 85 Advanced
Stormvermin Children of the Horned Rat 102 Advanced Skaven
Targeteer Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 85 Advanced
Vampire Count Night's Dark Masters 111 Advanced Special
Vampire Hunter Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 86 Advanced
Vampire Lord Night's Dark Masters 111 Advanced Special
Verenean Investigator Sigmars Heirs 124 Advanced
Veteran Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 86 Advanced
Village Elder Knights of the Grail 100 Advanced Bretonnian
Vitki Tome of Corruption 150 Advanced Norse
Wall Warden Knights of the Grail 101 Advanced Bretonnian
Warleader Tome of Corruption 150 Advanced Norse
Warlock Realms of Sorcery 131 Advanced
Warlock Engineer Children of the Horned Rat 103 Advanced Skaven
Warrior Priest Tome of Salvation 209 Advanced
Winged Lancer Realm of the Ice Queen 106 Advanced Kislev
Witch Realms of Sorcery 131 Advanced
Witch Hunter Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 87 Advanced
Wizard Lord Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 87 Advanced
Yeoman Knights of the Grail 101 Advanced Bretonnian

Now we have...

Acolyte (wizard rank 2)

Disciple (priest rank 2)

Flagellant (zealot rank 2)

Giant Slayer (troll slayer rank 2)

Witch Hunter ("investigator-warrior" rank 2)

IMHO, they don't have a lot of time before major enthusiasm wears off.

I totally hear you on having to house rule stuff (but I do that anyways for any game ..at the same time, I hope they're working hard to grow this game. For starters, they could have some "guidelines" of what an advanced RANK 2 and advanced RANK3 type careers should be like.

If we dont' see advanced career expansions until year 2, there's going to be a massive loss of opportunity and revenue just from people that moved on to other games.

jh

GravitysAngel said:

I am not sure I understand the first part of your question. But, no I don't have any reason to think they will be incompatible if/when they release any sort of advanced rule.

What I am getting at, is their release schedule, and it is of course just my own opinion. But it seems to me, it would have been a better choice to put out the core set and Gathering storm at the same time.

As far has what they put out - the toolkit and the up coming GM kit, well, just me again-but it seems that the majority of this material could have been in the basic set to begin with.

In short I am waiting for something more substantive rules wise before I buy any further material (that is after I get my hands fn the Gathering Storm.).

Regarding the combat and doing the same damage, I can't comment on that except that is the perception as now but may not be reality. FFG can release "advance" career and cards that change this. You may get a new action card (brand new action or improved version of existing). Perhaps to use that actions is <3P> (so <4P> if a combat action). However if you score 5 sucesses you do x2 damage or damage +8 etc. So keep in mind that it is easy for the dynamics to change with "advance" cards.

Now we are at the other gripe and a very valid one indeed. The game is incomplete. There are no advance careers (careers with more than 2 slots, better career bonuses), the magic systems is woefully incomplete (3/8 orders/cults basic classes. 10 spells for each order/cult split between 2 ranks). Characters pretty much maxed at rank 2, still missing haflings). Being conservative and saying players will game 1/week with 1 advance, that means they will complete rank 2 by April this year. Even the conservative players will have to decide to develop houserules / start new characters.

I can't remember any RPG release where the game was incomplete and didn't come to an "end" after 20 or so game sessions. There is a plethora of material out there for WFRP for a complete campaign. However the current ruelset does not support it without modification as there are issues creeping up (the sucess/diffcult rate of checks, constant damage, etc). This might not be an issue if WFRP v3 was a new genre of game called RPG. However that is not the case. RPG's have been around 30+ years and there are two previous complete versions of WRFP out there that can easily integrate the existing game material. Combine this that your asking people to pay a large sum of money on the core set and extra dice and you are not setting up a situation for the success fo the game.

I'm in agreement with everyone on the thread, the game is loosing it luster and I'm starting to get frustrated and feeling "ripped off". There is potential, but FFG had better do something with the Gathering Storm and the GM tooklit to complete the game or it playerbase is going to filter off.

The scary thing is....the next couple releases by FFG have nothing to do with any of these issues that players are having with the game. All the same problems will still be there. Not good....

Magnus the Pious said:

Do you want the hopeful or cynical answer?

Hopeful: We have not seen what is in the GM kit. They can easily put in Rank 3 cards, advance careers.

Cynical: You are correct

nub5 said:

nub5 said:

With the exception of some specific career paths (wizards, priests, slayers), I don't really see the need for advanced classes in this game. All that careers provide are 10 potential areas of growth, and a skill list. The most that our current classes provide are an additional skill to choose from, the lack of which is hardly a handicap.

I understand the need for more wizard and priest careers, but by-and-large we have what we need for the majority of characters.

I think this is more of a case of viewing this game through 2nd Ed tinted glasses. In the last edition, you had to have advanced careers to grow. In this new edition, that simply isn't the case anymore.

It's not that everything you say (those of you who feel the game is lacking) is wrong. I have also played wfrp v1/v2, call of cthulhu, rolemaster, vampire the masquerade (dark ages mostly), dungeons and dragons and more. All those systems felt more complete in a sense you could just buy the main books and that was it.

wfrp 3rd ed. is different. It's not as complete in terms of having everything you need to play for 5 years. We will need additional cards, careers etc. to get something that feels as complete as those basic systems.

But still with that in mind this is the best system I have ever played. While there are some things I feel the need to create house rules for it's still the most healthy rpg I've played in terms of mechanics.

While we may not have the whole package yet, the foundation has been laid for a brilliant system. Previously I always srote my own rulebooks so to speak where I took all the rules from various expansion books and put them into one document so I didn't have to look through 10+ books when playing or explaining new players the rules. It's no so in wfrp 3rd ed. They never have to make another book with rules simply because they can just release new mechanics, actions, effects etc. as cards that will blend perfectly into your set without any need for more books with more rules. I love this system. It does mean however that the game is more expensive to produce (and purchase), but on the other hand I am willing to pay for that and wait for the system to be fleshed out because I really love the brilliant concept behind their system.

This system may not be for everyone, but my players really like it. Does it get old using that reckless cleave every fight? No why would it, when we in essence in the old system just had one attack... the basic melee attack. The system is really dynamic and I can sure as hell tell a difference between the dwarf iron breaker in my group who has really understood to combine and build a great set of actions and skills and then the human soldier who hasn'r really grasped the system to the same extent. The dwarf is a fearsome fighter, not because of hit character, because both have the same number of advancements, but because of how he plays. In the old system most would be determined by the dice and the skill levels. In wfrp 3rd ed. the players play a much bigger role because managing actions is far more important because of recharge, defence cards and the interactions between cards.

On top of that the dice are so brilliant. When you roll a d100 it's just failure or success. The GM can always make up small things, but it's just not reasonable to let a player get a wound because he hides and steps back into a spike in the wall. With these dice it is if the player succeeds but rolls a chaos star or lots of banes. The same with failure... if there are boons it may just... well you know how it works, but I simply love that part of the game as a GM. The players love it and they don't feel robbed when I make something up because the dice can justify it. Brilliant - truly brilliant.

So yes. I am looking forward to more stuff to sort of finish or fully flesh out this rpg package. But honestly we wouldn't play anything else, because this game is just so much fun. We are very much focused on storytelling but also like the mechanics side of role playing like combat... only this game has managed to tie those two elements together for us in a way we just haven't experienced before. No amount of missing advanced careers can change the fact that at it's core this is the best rpg we have ever played. It's that simple really.

Actually I am reading in 2 different RPG's forum, and I am almost reading the same issue...

The other game D..... A..'s customer are complaining that the game only allow character goes from level 1 to 5, and for the money they spent they are not getting an entire game as the game's computer game with the same name allow PC goes up to level 20, and soon with an update will allow player goes to level 30. Even though the publisher did promise additional supplement that increase level cap as it goes on... People are complain that they reach the current level cap already, and want to have more level, more class options, and more monster etc...

Sound similar?

Any how, I believe that this game is fine as it is. I haven't seen a role playing game's fan didn't come up with their own house rule, house create carrier etc... to extend the game's longevity.

The burden of this game is previous edition had so many careers, people will ask for more. If this game is stand alone as it is, maybe people wouldn't feel there isn't enough career.

In regard to combat with fixed damage, well if you have varied damage, the player may feel the damage range is not big enough. Next thing we do, we have a console rpg character who must do 999,999,999 point of damage in order to entertain the player.

Where to start...

Refering back to the OP, my group has been playing this for a while, and the lack of huge variance in damage has not been an issue, particularly since several of the action cards allow for follow-on attacks or the potential for more damage. However, even if that were not the case, I honestly don't think it would be an issue anyway.

Concerning career progression, I actually feel this is an issue worthy of concern. From a game psychology standpoint, everyone likes to progress: becoming bigger, badder, better.

2E had the difficulty that with enough play, many characters became bland, having done the "tour" of the requisite careers.

In 3E , the biggest difficulty is that we don't know. As has been pointed out, very few advanced careers exist, and we have no idea what FFG has planned beyond what we've seen - which is little.

I like the system enough to be willing to wait for a bit

The problem with careers whether it's basic or advanced is characters max out way too fast. Stats go to 5. Access to more cards? What for? Players use the same ones over and over anyways and combat only lasts 2-3 rounds, you won't really get to ever use all the cards. Skill training? 3 max done. Houserule and remove max caps? Might as well play Exalted or something cause you are going to be rolling 250,000 dice (don't forget to sign your check over to FFG cause you gonna need alot more dice to play). You gonna have a hard enough time justifying your challenge/misfortune modifiers against players cause at rank 2-3, success rates are off the chain! Whats the point of advancement when most players are pretty content with what they are now? Ironbreaker doesn't really want to be a soldier. He wants to unlock a higher tier Ironbreaker (should have been shieldbreakers then release ironbreakers in an advanced career anyways). Hey I advanced! I get another die to add to my already ridiculous pool of dice and monster success rate. The dice? Yea they are cool, but you are saying you as a GM can't roleplay dice results from percentiles? Really? So when you play old warhammer for example your whole table just says "miss" "hit"? That's terrible and it doesn't justify spending a $100 so they can have dice that tell them how to roleplay and add flavor. No need to justify 3rd edition by bashing 2nd edition now, this isn't an edition war post. This is about some serious flaws with 3rd edition that people are seeing from a couple months of playing.

There really is only one viable solution to disliking the game that much. Stop playing it.

The success rate is easy to fix as has been said before, but success rate isn't everything in this system. Boons and comets do a lot of the extra damage beyond soak. But the success rate is so **** easy to fix.

Many other rpgs have just 8-10 classes. I don't see the issue here. This is something new. It's not just 2nd ed. tweaked. It's a completely new rpg.

it will take at least 30 sessions before characters are "maxed out" out in their own area of expertise if the 1exp per session rule is used. That's 1½ to 2 years for us. Players will most likely die before that though. But if the GM gives his player too many exp. points per session then it's not the systems fault.

Solutions

1. Allow players to pick a completed career again with a clean slate by paying 3 advancements (humans 2)
2. The challenge die chaos star equals a chaos star + two challenges + reroll another challenge die
3. Extra damage can be caused when you get at least 4 successes, 3 boons, 1 sigmars comet and inflict one critical wound. Roll one fortune die. On a boon extra damage is caused. Roll another fortune die. Every time a boon comes up you reroll like the old exploding die. Each boon is +3 damage.
4. Start the game with fewer creation points and do not allow players to increase characteristics at character creation.
5. Players only start with 1 stance piece in each direction. They need to purchase more after creation. New pieces cost 1 advancement when they are within the stance meter on the career sheet. It costs 2 advancements beyond that (meaning 4+ always costs 2 advancements).
6. Remember to have monsters use defensive reactions (dodge/parry/block) and give them the improved ones if their stats are high enough. Also give monsters other nice action cards.
7. Think outside the box. The books really points out that the group must decide what they want. That could be a high power starting character (or low powered). The system is so open. It provides a wonderful foundation, but it also demands something from the groups playing it... Make up your own rules. I don't know if the book says it specifically, but after reading it I certainly got the feeling that the author almost told me as a GM that it was alright and perhaps even great to make house rules.
8. Remeber that the story is the most important part of role playing...

Those eight things fix everything except a desire for WFRP 3rd edition to be something it was never meant to be.

So all I have to do according to the insights in the posts....

Houserule this this this this and this.

Make up my own rules

Wait and see what FFG decides to put out and spend more money to get some options to make the $100 core set last for longer than 3 months

And the infamous "If you got problems ..quit playing"

Brilliant system indeed

Magnus the Pious said:

Alternatively, you could go to the forum of a game you don't like and complain.

Keep it civil, folks.

No need to be getting snarky or personal with comments.